If a boardgame is rendered virtually - let's use Monopoly as example - is it still a boardgame?
If the same game can be played online via browser vs other real players (or off a LAN server) - is it still a boardgame?
 | Hidden Movement: What Makes it Cool? (16) by questccg |
| Wizardry Legacy: the Forgotten Academy (12) by larienna |
 | TradeWorlds — Tactical Core (3) by questccg |
| Introducing, Jacob! (that's me by the way...) (0) by Jacob |
| Chat GPT: Testing as a design assistant (8) by larienna |
| Winner Announced for the Meta Progression Community Challenge! (0) by The Game Crafter |
| Hi guys ~ Gameland and Yaofish are officially accepting board game design submissions! (1) by questccg |
| A programmer's dilemma (16) by larienna |
| Qubits: a solo trick taking game (9) by Wobt2 |
| Worker placement, Role selection and Action cards: Is it the same thing? (11) by larienna |
| Site Ads and Google Experiments (0) by questccg |
| TradeWorlds — Smuggler's Run (7) by questccg |
| Single Item Shipping at The Game Crafter (0) by The Game Crafter |
| Protospiel Indy 2024 (May 24-26) (0) by The Game Crafter |
| How to avoid being blocked at content creation (10) by questccg |
| Protospiel Indy 2024 (0) by sirvalence |
| In need of some IDEAS concerning a "Battle" System (15) by questccg |
| How to avoid quarterbacking in an adventure game (7) by larienna |
| How complicated could math get? (23) by X3M |
| Can we have gaming ads on this website (7) by questccg |
| Dice Mitigation Challenge - Winner Announced! (0) by The Game Crafter |
 | Delving! - " That is when it hit me, it was starting to feel like other games" (3) by MarkJindra |
| Game Purchase Contract (0) by MarkJindra |
| Blackboard Boogie Board: a bit of a REVIEW... (2) by questccg |
| Toy play: Creating a log while playing (15) by questccg |
Comments
It's only a board game if...
You preserve some way of communication between players. Board and Card games are social activities that encourage communication among the group. If a game is "controversial" enough, then for sure there will be dialog during the game - and if the game is really good - after the game.
So you need to allow some form of communication between players. If it's just online without communication - it's more of a computer game even if it has a "board"...
That's my 2 cents.
communication
We are assuming that the players are in communication via skype etc or all in same room at different computers or taking turns with a single computer.
Another controversial point is...
Dice rolling: can you roll your own dice - or is it computer generated. Going with your example of Monopoly, can you physically roll dice and enter the roll value or does the computer randomize the rolls?
The only reason I bring this up is because "Golemn Arcana" uses a stylus and tablet to keep track of the game. Tom Vassel is a purist and says that games such as these should allow you to roll your OWN dice, instead of randomizing the roll for you.
And, BTW, "Golemn Arcana" allows you to do both...
This is a sticky point. Obviously randomizing dice rolls doesn't make for a lesser game experience - but just to let you know some people are fussy about dice rolling!
Cheers...
re dice rolling
The game I am working on - ready for blind beta test of prototype - has the computer doing the randomization but the player is allocating shots among targets for combat (is a hexmap space scenario boardgame) just not rolling the dice.
It could be reconfigured but if played online would require a randomized (hidden) results table to prevent cheating and would use percentage dice. A guessing game with to hit percentages maintained and pick a number from 1 to 100 would be the same thing.
Is the consensus that it remains a boardgame if virtually rendered?
Or does it need another term?
Technically...
A video game (whether it's a modified board game or not), has code that drives the game. Board game mechanics are driven by the players.
If a board game is converted digitally, then the tactile control is taken away. Tasks like shuffling, adding/subtracting resources, moving pieces around the board, and others can succumb to digital bugs; the act of shuffling may actually break a digital game. A board game cannot "break" when someone is shuffling.
When a board game is converted, it becomes a digital board game, but it in itself is now a video game. Testing a board game and testing a digital board game are completely different. For example, time must be taken to test for simple functionality in a digital game.
While people use digital resources to test for board game iterations and possibilities, time must be takes to make sure that the code behind the testing is functioning normally. In addition, testing digitally doesn't take into account the human factor, it's just straight number crunching.
A board game designer can change rules by just saying it, then trying it. A digital game rules change requires that the designer go into the code then change it, then render, then play.
So to answer the question. No. If a board game is rendered digitally (or virtually), it ceases to becomes a true board game and becomes a digital board game, which essentially is a video game.
video game?
I would think it depended on the players perspective.
If it plays like a board game and is game mechanics and player interaction driven rather than graphics driven and is turn based vs real-time based isn't it a "computer generated boardgame" as opposed to a video game?
Example: the graphics are a fleet level display equivalent to colored pushpins on a hexmap but hidden pieces and simultaneous movements with possible interaction with hidden pieces require a different display for each player and computer - as opposed to a gamemaster - for movement calculations.
The back-end part of having to modify code to accomodate rules shifts or implement changes is not a part of the player experience.
Disagree.
If it plays like a board game and is game mechanics and player interaction driven rather than graphics driven and is turn based vs real-time based isn't it a "computer generated boardgame" as opposed to a video game?
Example: the graphics are a fleet level display equivalent to colored pushpins on a hexmap but hidden pieces and simultaneous movements with possible interaction with hidden pieces require a different display for each player and computer - as opposed to a gamemaster - for movement calculations.
The back-end part of having to modify code to accomodate rules shifts or implement changes is not a part of the player experience.
Part of the player experience is running the game engine using tactile means. Digital assets take that away and replaces it with code. "Video" game only means that it uses video as the primary means of play and by real definition, video is "the moving images that are seen in a recording or broadcast". Digital board games have moving images powered by code. Player interaction doesn't factor into this.
In fact, what you're saying is what marketing wants you to think. Saying "Monopoly Board Game App" is really "Game that you recognize as a board game we've turned digital and is now a video game".
So yes, it is a video game, whether it has player interaction, a board or not. Board, by strict definition, uses a board (or cards) as its primary means of play. Card games, in turn, are driven by cards.
If you have Monopoly online and you don't talk to each other, does giving a mic (or ability to chat) to every player magically turn it into a digital board game? No. It's a video game that emulates a board game but is itself a video game.
Is Hearthstone a card game or a video game? There's limitations in communication, but is digitally rendered and played. It's a video game.
Let's do the opposite. What about a game that has players NOT talking to each other. "...and Then We Held Hands" or "Chess" or "Connect Four"? Those are STILL board games even though communication/player interaction is little or non-existent.
If my card game becomes an app, it will cease to become a "card game" by definition, and become a "video game". The nomenclature can change to accommodate marketing, but the strict definition is true.
I've worked on video games. I've worked on card games. I've worked on digitally converted video games, but they're still video games. It's the MEDIUM that determines what it is, not what is DOES.
A simple view
Any game on the computer is a video game.
If it is a game on your table, it is a board game.
If you really are going to use communication between players as an argument. Remember, there are many many video games that allow this communication. RTS games, FPS etc.
I say, a game is a board game if it can be played as board game.
As soon as something like a dice roll is taken away. It is automated; the board game is now a video board game. Very simple, we just add video.
My 2 cents.
tic-tac-toe
If we use the medium as the designator:
2 kids playing tic-tac-toe with each other
using a computer is a video game,
with a plastic board and pieces is a board game,
and with pencil and paper is art ?
more detail
Going into a bit more detail (my personal opinion):
A game is a boardgame if it plays like a boardgame (is based on turns rather than real-time reaction speed, needs 2 or more players, and involves some sort of display of "pieces" on a defined playing field involving multiple spaces where position has meaning).
With a boardgame graphics are nice and might induce you to buy but are incidental to gameplay.
A video game is usually real-time driven in some way, often depends on graphics and visuals (we have come a long way since the days of Pong - the one true video game :), and tends to be a more immersive experience -- you are in the game instead of there sits the game you are playing.
The "tactile experience" is also incidental to gameplay with a boardgame. If you are paralyzed and tell someone where to move your pieces and have them roll the dice for you it is still the same game.
Rolling a 6-sided die or pressing on a popper that contains a 6-sided die or clicking a mouse to roll a virtual die or spinning a spinner with 6 positions are all the same thing for gameplay. And boardgames often eliminate or combine die rolls into a combat table (ex: 50% chance to hit and if hit it goes 1 of 2 ways is a miss-miss-hita-hitb table instead of flip a coin twice) to improve gameplay.
I don't get it...
A game is a boardgame if it plays like a boardgame (is based on turns rather than real-time reaction speed, needs 2 or more players, and involves some sort of display of "pieces" on a defined playing field involving multiple spaces where position has meaning).
With a boardgame graphics are nice and might induce you to buy but are incidental to gameplay.
A video game is usually real-time driven in some way, often depends on graphics and visuals (we have come a long way since the days of Pong - the one true video game :), and tends to be a more immersive experience -- you are in the game instead of there sits the game you are playing.
So...according to your definition Final Fantasy Tactics is a Board Game because there's a defined space and plays in turns?
Hungry Hungry Hippos is technically a video game because it IS real-time driven...you ARE the game.
There's two things we are talking about...medium and function. You're defining a game by its function. I define games by its medium. Function can change between mediums. Mediums never change.
reply
Not qualified to comment on Final Fantasy - have been out of gaming contact over 2 decades (a few years just long odd hours then 10 years vendor to convenience stores and a decade call center odd hours). I still have AD&D First Edition Rules!
I would call Hungry Hippos an activity game - but Hungry Hippos with a gaming console would play the same so I would still call it an activity game.
I prefer define by function.
Cosmic Encounter I would call a card game rather than a board game even though it has a board and pieces and is turn based.
Seems weird.
I would call Hungry Hippos an activity game - but Hungry Hippos with a gaming console would play the same so I would still call it an activity game.
I prefer define by function.
The way you classify things lends itself to multiple definitions for games and will continue to diversify and blur as games evolve. For being out of video games for 20 years...the industry has changed dramatically.
There are many...MANY turn based games out there that are clearly video games and would never be board games because of their digital assets.
I suppose it's really perspective in this case. Like I said I've worked in video, board, and card game industries, so my definition is purely black and white. It appears you're not that much older than me (based on your claim on D&D 1st edition comment), so it's not a generational issue.
me
Actually I am 63 - got my first wargame from the Avalon Hill warehouse in Baltimore when I was in High School. Blitzkreig.
And not "out of video games" - out of any active gaming for many long years unless you count a brief stint playing Grepolis. Never did anything with video games other than play them (and cracked one back in the 80's).
To me... IMHO
IF and I say IF the GAME can be "ported" from a Computer Game to a Board Game - it's a REAL Board Game. The other way around if a Board Game is "ported" to a Computer Game WITHOUT adding to the game - in my opinion it remains a Board Game.
Let me explain.
There are things that computers do real well. Things like tracking statistics to housekeeping to AI. All these can be done in a Computer Game.
BUT in a Board Game, it's the opposite. It's difficult to track statistics beside a basic few (and I'm not speaking about RPGs). Damage tracking is possible - but using tokens makes the process "difficult". I'm not saying it's impossible - but it is *tedious* vs a Computer Game where it is all taken care of internally.
The key thing here is this:
A>If the game can exist as a TableTop Game - it's a Board Game.
B>If a Computer Game can be converted to a TableTop Game without changes to the game itself - I would qualify that it's a Board Game.
The medium should not matter - it's all about HOW the game plays. Many, if not most Computer Games can never become Board Games. There are too many rules programmed into the code.
Anyways that's just the way I see it...
Update: Why is Connect4 a board game? Because all Computer versions obey the laws of the original game. So even if it's a Computer Game, it's still fundamentally a Board Game.
Heroes of Might & Magic is a Computer Game. IF it ever gets "ported" to a Board Game - they will have to refine the mechanics and trim down the game to something feasible in the TableTop genre. So even if they come up with a TableTop version, in my mind, it will always remain a Computer Game.
Lastly Hearthstone by Blizzard is a "tricky" one. Why? Because I think the entire game could be "ported" to an ACTUAL Card Game with physical cards and the game would pretty much play the same! Okay so players would need to keep track of health, exhaust their special abilities and handle all the housekeeping the game does for players.
BUT I think that was Blizzard's intent: to make a game that could work in a Physical form (as a TableTop Game).
my game
Unable to argue with those designations.
This would make my game a computer game then since paperwork would be ridiculous and hidden pieces would require a neutral support staff if not using a computer.
Also combat die rolls would take forever even if to hit and damage location were made into combined percentage charts.
Depends on WHAT the computer does
This would make my game a computer game then since paperwork would be ridiculous and hidden pieces would require a neutral support staff if not using a computer.
Also combat die rolls would take forever even if to hit and damage location were made into combined percentage charts.
Ya I think if the Computer "takes care" of a lot of things that you cannot or have difficulty doing in a manual way - then it's a Video Game.
That's what I was trying to express: it depends WHAT the Computer does. Does it AUGMENT the TableTop game or MUST you use a Computer to play...
In the first case we can call it a "computerized tabletop game", in the second case we can call it a "video game" (both being computer games).
computerized tabletop game
I just dislike the wide application of the term video game and feel it should be reserved for things that involve actual motion at least instead of still pictures of the gameboard.
Various Video Games
You are right - I would characterize a "Video Game" as being a Computer Game that could never "exist" in any other form than a Computer Game. Imagine a "Side-scroller" (Commander Keen) or a "Top-scroller" (Silpheed) or any and all "FPS" (Doom, Quake, etc.)
RTS is probably another genre of "Video Game" - but people have expressed interest (Tbone) in making a game that is analog with real-time components. So maybe a "small" RTS might be possible in the TableTop category. But that still remains to be seen.