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What types of games are off topic?

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VeritasGames
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Darke just posted elsewhere saying that CCG design and licensing discussions are off topic.

People have talked about printing cards and prototyping cards as long as I've been posting here. I just assumed that cards were an inherent part of most board games, and so I assumed that card games were on topic.

Board Game Geek, for example, ranks CCGs right along with specialty hobby board games. They don't do RPGs and video games, however.

Is all discussion of manufacture and marketing of all games off topic, or do you have some special hatred of CCGs?

Should people not discuss games that are tile based because they don't have a single physical board? Is discussion limited to games with tiles and physical boards, but not cards alone (Babylon 5 customizable card game by Component Games System has tiles and is on topic, but not Uno, for example)?

If the Component Game System games are on topic because they have tiles, but the Decipher Star Wars game isn't, because its locations are playing cards and not hex tiles, then that's splitting a fine hair.

You should make your policy very explicit about what is and isn't off topic, so that people don't break your rules inadvertently. Darke, if CCGs are off topic, you should inform the other two administrators who were posting in the thread to stop talking about CCGs as well, so that we have an example to follow.

I'm not being snarky. I'm being serious. I design mostly card games. Both CCGs and non-CCGs. While I'm not going to sit around and violate forum rules, if all card game design is off topic, then suddenly I'm not interested in these boards much at all except to post an occasional answer to a question to help someone else out.

If traditional card games are on topic, but CCGs aren't then that is sort of wildly arbitrary, but OK.

zaiga
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What types of games are off topic?

Hello fellow admins!

I've moved this topic over here, so we can discuss this without the rest of the board joining in.

Personally, although he says it as if he were offended personally, I do think Lee has a point. Now, I don't want the board to become some kind of CCG design central, but I do think that it should be possible to discuss CCGs, and that they shouldn't be regarded as off topic.

Thoughts?

Zzzzz
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What types of games are off topic?

I have mixed feelings about this. On one hand I understand what Darke is stating, this board is supposed to be focused on *board game* design. What does a CCG have to do with board game design?

On the other hand I think that talk about other games in general is a good thing. Be it a CCG or even a standard playing card game like Pitch.

And with all the cross talk on the forums about board games, technology, *euro* games, craft products, card games, conventions, pizza, etc. How can we justify what is or is not a valid discussion? I guess Darke gets to anwser this, but I find it hard to limit talk because there is potential to learn something from any thread, no matter how much the topic might be disliked.

Sadly my only thought would be to create a subforum for CCG discussion. Maybe it would isolate the discussions into one area and make it easier for all members to avoid CCG discussion if they are not interested in that subject.

jwarrend
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What types of games are off topic?

My knee-jerk reactions:

Lee saying "I'm not being snarky" breaks the irony-meter!

The thread to which Matthew and I replied read something like "here's a CCG trend, which would be bad if it happened in board gaming", and Matthew and I provided a board game perspective on the trend he was discussing. But then the OP sort of thread-jacked his own thread and made it entirely about CCGs, which I found less useful, and have dropped out of the discussion for now.

I feel that it's Darke's site, and it's his call. I do agree with Lee that making the policy unambiguous is a good idea.

My opinion, for whatever it's worth, is this. Discussion of topics pertaining to genre X (where X can be miniatures, CCGs, RPGs, etc) is ok as long as there is a clear board or card game-relevant purpose to the subject.

So, example possible topics and how I would rule:

"Need a tapping mechanic for my new CCG": Ok; discussions of mechanics could be relevant for board or card games.

"Where do I find good artists to do Card Art for my CCG": Ok; board game publishers might need piece art as well.

"Comparison of CCG and Board Game market trends": Iffy, but I'd let it go.

"How do I market my new CCG": Not ok; is not relevant to board or card games.

"Common/Uncommon/Rare distribution for my new CCG?" Not ok.

"Monster types for a new RPG?" Not ok; is not relevant to board gaming.

Now, you might rule differently on some of these issues, and that is fine, and I don't want to argue or quibble about how we might rule differently on these topics. In any case, I suggest we would not apply a terribly heavy hand in moderation, as that would just create more work for us, and as the others have noted, even some of us who like boardgames are interested in CCGs or RPGs.

To me, the idea is that we want to create in people's heads the following question before they post: "Would this be of interest or relevance to someone who is interested in board games?"

I think too many posters see this site as a quick-answer service for their questions. Many are too lazy to even attempt a forum search where their questions have been answered 1000 times. I think that by encouraging people to think before posting, we will both increase the quality of posts and will hopefully discourage people from posting topics that are OT for the site. Frankly, I'd take a well-thought-out, interesting analysis of CCGs or RPGs any day over some of the "how do I copyright my awesome new game?" posts that we frequently get.

That's just my take; I'll think about it some more and post again if my thoughts change.

-Jeff

FastLearner
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What types of games are off topic?

I agree, Jeff, that we were actually talking about boardgames in that thread. Weird how things can be read.

Me, I don't have a strong opinion. I agree that there is some valid overlap, that there are definitely CCG mechanics discussions that I find interesting as they relate to boardgames, but I'm also not interested in CCGs for their own sake and so certainly don't mind if they're not discussed.

As to making a clear policy known, I think we've gotten along just fine without one trying to define the line: CCG talk is pretty rare and tends to die out on its own. I guess a policy like "non-boardgame talk, including discussions of CCGs and RPGs that aren't related to boardgaming, should re restricted to the Off-Topic forum," or such would work.

phpbbadmin
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Thoughts

Quote:

Will someone go start a site called CCGDF.COM so these threads will go away? =) I was almost temtped to move this, and future CCG topics to the Off Topic forums. Yes, I used to play CCGs just like most everyone else, but they really aren't on topic for this site, especially in large doses.

-Darke

As I stated, I really *do* wish there was a CCG designers site somewhere that we could refer people to and thus limit our bandwidth on these sorts of questions. There are sites for RPGs, Wargames, Video Games, but nothing for CCGs. My greatest fear is to have someone with a lot of valuable information wave off the site because of too many threads about CCGS. My official stance is that yes, these threads are tolerated. Perhaps a CCG subforum might be nice, but then I think that might actually encourage more chatter about them. Officially the only thing that is not permitted is video game discussion.
-Michael

Zzzzz
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Re: Thoughts

Darkehorse wrote:

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Perhaps a CCG subforum might be nice, but then I think that might actually encourage more chatter about them.
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-Michael

I have a few questions for all of us to answer:

Are CCGs board games? (yes or no, )

My answer is NO

Do you want to allow members to discuss CCG game DESIGN on this site? (yes or no, If you answer yes please state why.)

My answer is YES, Why. Because there is no other place on the net that offers decent game design help. Because some GOOD design related discussions about CCG would be useful for my game design knowledge. But the content has to be DESIGN related, not *MY MTG Strategies*

How bad do you think the forums would fill up with CCG garbage talk if we *allowed* CCG topcis?

I feel we might run into some additional random talk that is not design related, but we already have this occur for board game design. But this would mean fielding more talk about CCGs, which I have no desire to do.

Blah blah blah, all I do is try to rationalize my opinion on this issue. Bottom line is that BGDF is a board game design site, so unless someone has some great thoughts that make me feel differently, I feel that CCG topics should be not allowed.

zaiga
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What types of games are off topic?

I was going to type a long post with my thoughts, but I think it all amounts to one single question: what makes a CCG different from, say, a standard card game in such a way that we do not want to promote discussion on the subject?

phpbbadmin
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What types of games are off topic?

zaiga wrote:
I was going to type a long post with my thoughts, but I think it all amounts to one single question: what makes a CCG different from, say, a standard card game in such a way that we do not want to promote discussion on the subject?

Right. But when a lot of the discusssions are about marketing CCGs, then they have very little to do with board games. And my humble opinion is that CCGs are a dead locked market and therefore moot to discuss in the first place.

-Michael

zaiga
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What types of games are off topic?

Darkehorse wrote:
zaiga wrote:
I was going to type a long post with my thoughts, but I think it all amounts to one single question: what makes a CCG different from, say, a standard card game in such a way that we do not want to promote discussion on the subject?

Right. But when a lot of the discusssions are about marketing CCGs, then they have very little to do with board games. And my humble opinion is that CCGs are a dead locked market and therefore moot to discuss in the first place.

Well, I was asking a genuine question rather than making a statement ;) But you implicitly gave the answer - it's the marketing aspect that makes a CCG different from an ordinary card game.

So, should we not allow discussion on the subject of marketing CCGs? Perhaps, but we allow discussion on marketing normal card games, so I'm not sure whether we can really "sell" that as a good reason, without getting any discussion.

I'm not a huge fan of CCG discussions myself, simply because I'm not interested in them, but I can't think of a logical reason to not allow discussion about CCGs. Perhaps we should simply allow it, and hope it doesn't become too huge a problem. It hasn't been a problem in the past, except for the occasional topic about CCG marketing popping up. And then, so what? Some members might be interested, and others can ignore it.

I don't think there we will scare away many potential users by allowing CCG discussion, but I do think we might scare some potential users away, and also lose some current members, if we explicitly forbid it.

A special forum for CCGs is not a good idea, I think, because it would actually promote CCG discussion, which is something we don't want. It does isolate those posts, but they will show up in the "latest posts" bar on the frontpage anyway, which is what most members check, I think.

phpbbadmin
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What types of games are off topic?

zaiga wrote:
[

I don't think there we will scare away many potential users by allowing CCG discussion, but I do think we might scare some potential users away, and also lose some current members, if we explicitly forbid it.

Good point. Excellent point.

Quote:

A special forum for CCGs is not a good idea, I think, because it would actually promote CCG discussion, which is something we don't want. It does isolate those posts, but they will show up in the "latest posts" bar on the frontpage anyway, which is what most members check, I think.

Agreed.

-Michael

Zzzzz
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What types of games are off topic?

So basically since we dont want to promote CCG talk we wont create a subforum, but at the same time we are going to allow the CCG posts to clutter up the other subforum areas?

Not sure that makes sense to me, but I do agree that having a *special* area might promote more talk about CCGs.

phpbbadmin
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What types of games are off topic?

LOL. How about I just buy a domain name, setup a PHPBB installation with that domain, then we can just refer people there. I.E. zero administration. Hell, maybe it will even take off enough that I can 'give' it to someone else to administrate. What's $10 a year for a domain name in the long run?

LOL. I'm almost half serious.

-Darke

Zzzzz
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What types of games are off topic?

Darke,

I already registered CCGDF.com, ok just kidding. But if you want to have it available sure, why not make a place for people who like CCGs. It would not take much to just copy the new wiki site, db, code and rename it CCGDF.

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