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Railroad Tycoon = Age of Steam, only much better

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sedjtroll
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(I'm going to post this on BGG as well)
Sadly, I did not get a playtest of Terra Prime last night at my weekly game group... and even more sadly, I DID get to try Age of Steam. There was lots of discussion on BGG when Railroad Tycoon came out, and recently we've been playing RRT a lot. Someone in our group got AoS to try it out, and there's now been discussion in our group about the two. Now that I've played both, I can say with authority that AoS is a miserable experience. RRT is clearly a streamlined, edited, and improved version of the game in just about every respect. If you are consternated about which of the two games to play or buy - I recommend Railroad Tycoon over Age of Steam. Below are SOME of my concrete reasons why RRT is the better game:

In no particular order:
1. Game length vs actions. Both games appear to take about the same amount of time. In AoS, our 6 player game took a good 2.5 hours - probably longer than normal - and lasted 6 turns. One of the players was bankrupted approximately turn 2, so it was really a 5 player game at that point.

6 turns is not a very long time. I don't see how a player can plan and execute any kind of long term strategy in only 6 turns, or even 8 or 10. In a 2.5 hour game, I would really like to play more than 6 turns. Even in a 1.5 hour game (which may be more realistic) I'd like more than 6 turns.

2. The tension in AoS is all in the wrong place! Some have said that by having to plan ahead with how many shares you want makes the game much more tense and interesting. In actual fact, it transfers much of the tension of the game from strategic action, to careful planning of money. Since the game is so unforgiving with respect to shares and income, people spend quite a bit of time deciding up front what they plan to do, how much they plan to spend, how much they might need for auctions, and therefore how much stock they can afford to take. It's important to be careful in this consideration, because a small mistake - especially in the early turns - can send you right into bankruptcy (or put you so far behind you'll never catch up anyway).

Railroad Tycoon streamlines this such that you can just do whatever you need to do, and take stock as needed, cutting down tremendously on the down time in the game and leaving the tension with the track building and deliveries where it belongs.

3. Production of goods. At the beginning of a game of AoS, everyone's on equal footing as all players can see the setup of the board, and even what goods MIGHT go to each city (eventually). The die roll mechanic in theory implies that over time all cities will probably get goods produced in them... however as we all know, the variance in rolling 1d6 is pretty high. Frankly, I'm highly put off by the production mechanic in AoS, and I much prefer the larger board with more goods in RRT - and no repopulation of goods (unless you pay for it). I'd be a little happier with AoS if the Production mechanic were based on 2d6 rather than 1d6, but even then there'd be the same complaints as with Settlers.

4. Cost of Track: In Age of Steam the cost of track of various types are increasingly expensive, and the cost of building on various terrains also increases... in railroad Tycoon the complexity of the track (cross, straight, bend, etc) doesn't matter, the only consideration is the terrain. This minor simplification streamlines the game without losing ny strategic depth whatsoever. AoS Also has some fiddley rules regarding Towns, which don't add much to the game, while RRT just has cities which all behave the same way. Another rules simplification that doesn't deteriorate the game at all, and leaves the focus on the game rather than the rules.

5. Income Reduction: The fiddley income reduction rule from AoS is greatly improved in RRT with the Income track - where income is based on, but not equal to, your score. That the income actually starts to decrease in RRT is ingenious, and is only undermined by the unclear statement in the rules about "income dropping and then rising again" after 100 points. If played with the $9 income (as must have been intended), then a player going into debt (taking out stock) to set up a moneymaking enterprise must either be more careful about how many shares he takes, or take measures to ensure the game ends before his debt comes back to haunt him.

Income Reduction in AoS seems like a crude representation of the same thing, but without the real effect at the endgame - just fiddley stuff in the middle which makes the uphill road steeper and steeper. In AoS there's not really a feeling of going into debt to set up a moneymaking enterprise, as EVERYONE must go into a lot of debt, and NOONE reallymakes any money. This comes back to the long term strategy I mentioned earlier.

6. Cosmetics: It's clear that Railroad Tycoon has nicer bits than Age of Steam. Some people are not moved by this one way or another. That being said, I think it's safe to say that more often than not people who ARE moved by that are moved in the direction of the fancy board and trains of RRT.

hpox
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Railroad Tycoon = Age of Steam, only much better

Nice. I was put off by RRT because it looked like a "dumbed down" version of AoS but I will take a look at it now.

sedjtroll
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Railroad Tycoon = Age of Steam, only much better

hpox wrote:
Nice. I was put off by RRT because it looked like a "dumbed down" version of AoS but I will take a look at it now.

I've seen that 'dumbed down' comment on BGG... it's not accurate. Unless by 'dumbed down' they mean 'better'.

Seriously, as a game designer, Age of Steam feels like an early prototype of Railroad Tycoon.

AoS DOES have 1 thing going for it... the start player auction. It's more interesting than the one in RRT. I think that's something that can be ported easily, and I might try it next time I play RRT. Here;s the gist for those not familiar:

Previous P1 starts the bidding. On your turn you bid or pass. First player to Pass pays nothing and goes last in turn order. Next player to pass pay 1/2 their bid and goes next to last, etc. The last 2 people in the auction BOTH pay their FULL bid.

jwarrend
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Railroad Tycoon = Age of Steam, only much better

sedjtroll wrote:

Seriously, as a game designer, Age of Steam feels like an early prototype of Railroad Tycoon.

Heh heh heh. You should say this in your BGG thread. I suspect you're in for a fun ride over there! Make sure you mention that you've only played AoS once; that should really amp up the discussion even more!

-Jeff

sedjtroll
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Railroad Tycoon = Age of Steam, only much better

jwarrend wrote:
sedjtroll wrote:

Seriously, as a game designer, Age of Steam feels like an early prototype of Railroad Tycoon.

Heh heh heh. You should say this in your BGG thread. I suspect you're in for a fun ride over there! Make sure you mention that you've only played AoS once; that should really amp up the discussion even more!
Done, and done. I think it was clear I'd only played once, and I did pull out the Game Designer thing (not in thaose exact words though) in my last post. :)

jwarrend
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Railroad Tycoon = Age of Steam, only much better

I took a look at the discussion, and it was about what I expected; some agreement, some disagreement. I think there's a tendency at BGG and spielfrieks to not take very seriously a "review" written by someone who has only played a game one time. I happen to agree very strongly with that sentiment, actually.

I wonder if you could expand on the logic behind this point:

Quote:
As an amateur game designer I am confident in my ability to observe mechanics and trends, and extrapolate how a game system may behave under more optimum conditions.

I have to confess, it comes off sounding pompous to me, but it could be that you can back it up with reasoning. I guess that from my point of view, my experience as a designer has given me good practice at coming up with mechanics to surmount design obstacles, and to be able figure out how to change a game when it's not working, but I wouldn't say it's given me an improved ability to instantantly understand the underlying strategic landscapes in another games. I'm not convinced that such a skill even exists, but if it does, I'm not sure why it would preferentially exist in designers.

What commonalities are there between game designing and strategizing that give one such depth of insight to make broad statements about a game that one has limited exposure to, and enable one to maintain that one's evaluation is correct even in the presence of dissenting opinions from experienced players of the game?

-J

sedjtroll
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Railroad Tycoon = Age of Steam, only much better

jwarrend wrote:
I wonder if you could expand on the logic behind this point:

Quote:
As an amateur game designer I am confident in my ability to observe mechanics and trends, and extrapolate how a game system may behave under more optimum conditions.

Indeed, I could.

Quote:
I have to confess, it comes off sounding pompous to me, but it could be that you can back it up with reasoning.

It was not supposed to sound pompous. In fact, it might have come off entirely incorrectly, as I seem to have given you the wrong idea alltogether. I don't claim to instantantly understand the underlying strategic landscapes in games. What I meant to say there is that I can see how the game might play out differently with fewer players, or - in a very general way - if I had played differently. I don't intend that to mean that I'd be any good at the game, but for some on-topic examples:

When playing Railroad Tycoon with 5 people, it is possible (maybe easy) to see that with only 3 the game might be boring because there would be plenty of space for people to do their own thing and the game would feel like multiplayer solitaire. Similarly, while playing with 3 (and not enjoying the multiplayer feeling), it's possible (maybe easy) to see how more players would cause people to run into each other and have to interact. It might not be easy to see exactly how that interaction would play out, but it's easy to see that there would be a lot more interaction (people wanting to deliver the same cubes, people wanting to build the same links, etc).

In the case of Age of Steam, it's true, I had not played it before. In this particular case, the similarities between it and Railroad Tycoon put me at an advantage (not in the game itself, but in this foresight/extrapolation thing I'm talking about) relative to a game I've never heard of before. But more importantly, "as a game designer" I spend a lot of time looking at the mechanics and dynamics of games, both published and unpublished, and I often consider how the game would work with more players, fewer players, or if this-or-that were different.

Another more specific, more personal example (maybe a better example, maybe not) is All For One. When I read about that I was excited because I saw in my minds eye how it might play out. When Scurra sent me a prototype I solo played it a few times, and I saw 2 things... I saw how his rules would play out, and I saw how a bunch of changes to them would play out differently. I suppose I could not be sure of those things until they were tried, but sure enough upon playtest I found I was exactly right. All the things I thought would happen did happen, and then, after the changes, all the things I thought would happen differently did happen differntly (trying to keep the discussion generic because I know most people don't know All For One from a hole in the ground).

The point is, I'm relatively good at extrapolating that kind of thing. I'm no pro, and people are welcome to disagree with me about my assessments, but in my experience I'm simply not terribly wrong about my observations very often. I AM wrong sometimes, and often the observations - no matter how accurate - are not very helpful... but working on game design has helped me develop this 'skill'.

So if someone wants to discount my opinion because I've only played the game once, and ignore the fact that (like in this case) I have a lot of experience with a very similar (derivative) game system, as well as specific reasoning behind my arguments, then that's their perogative. And it's my perogative in that case to hold them in equally low esteem if they fail to offer more reasoning behind their arguments than "You've obviously only played the game once."

Quote:
What commonalities are there between game designing and strategizing that give one such depth of insight to make broad statements about a game that one has limited exposure to,

I have more than simply limited exposure to mechanics such as die rolling for production (for example), and how that relates to board position, simply from the countless hours I spent playing Settlers of Catan. There are pages of discussion on BGDF, BGG, and elsewhere about the statistics of die rolling, not to mention classes taken and common sense. So when I make a statement regarding the variance of a d6 and how that relates to production in Age of Steam, I'm not exactly talking out of my ass. There's some backup there.

Quote:
and enable one to maintain that one's evaluation is correct even in the presence of dissenting opinions from experienced players of the game?
From what I can tell, some (not all) of these dissenting opinions aren't refuting my logic or arguement as much as my assertion as to the positive or negative impact it has on the game. I say "the tension's in the wrong place because the game is more about counting money and taking shares than building track and delivering goods", and they say "yeah, and that's better" (not "No, the game isn't about counting money")

Sebastian
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Railroad Tycoon = Age of Steam, only much better

sedjtroll wrote:
From what I can tell, some (not all) of these dissenting opinions aren't refuting my logic or arguement as much as my assertion as to the positive or negative impact it has on the game. I say "the tension's in the wrong place because the game is more about counting money and taking shares than building track and delivering goods", and they say "yeah, and that's better" (not "No, the game isn't about counting money")

From my point of view, the interesting and great thing about Age of Steam is the constant tension between building track and the having the money to do so. You need to manage the conflicting goals of having enough cash now against medium term income against your long term strategic goals, taking what the other players are doing into account the entire time. Very few other games have this constant need to manage the strategy chosen (as opposed to short term tactics) over the course of the entire game.

[Of course, this has the downside that a strategic or tactical mistake at the start of the game can cripple you - there are few catch the leader mechanisms. This game is for gamers rather than families.]

Railroad Tycoon, on the other hand, has stripped out all this tension to leave an over-produced tile laying game. It's not even comparable. Admittedly, I haven't played RRT, but as an amateur game designer, I am confident in my ability to extrapolate.

FastLearner
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Railroad Tycoon = Age of Steam, only much better

As someone who's played both, I can validate that, Sebastian.

To me, Age of Steam is an exciting, tight, challenging game that is almost always a ton of fun. Railroad Tycoon -- which I only played once, it's true -- has very little tension, you can make mistakes and still recover easily, and isn't challenging at all. I pleyed it with folks I normally play AoS with, and after pulling ahead about 20% of the way into the game, I became undefeatable. This cannot occur in AoS, at least not with good players.

Briefly, on your specific points, Seth:

1. Game length vs. actions: It's this very thing that makes RT so unappealing to me. In AoS I need to make a very good decision every single turn, which I find pleasantly challenging. With RT I was able to make multiple sub-optimal plays and still win. In a six-player game of AoS, where the map becomes very crowded very quickly due to the large number of players, you have to work like crazy to figure out how you're going to establish decent routes while planning to share some track and try to give away points only to those in the back. Delicious!

2. The tension in AoS is all in the wrong place! Well, I guess that depends on where you want your tension. I like that issuing stock is just at fraught with difficult decisions as is laying track. I don't get why easy issuing of stock is a positive thing. It took a ton of potential fun out of RT for me.

3. Production of goods. While I think the production mechanism in AoS is a bit clunky, the general paucity of good moves and a lack of guaranteed promise in the future makes AoS shine over RT. The huge map and plentiful goods of RT really drain away all of the tension, and for me, the fun.

4. Cost of Track: We obviously see strategy differently. I dunno, maybe I'd feel the same way after a single game of AoS (like I do with RT), but the complex track rules in AoS make getting to a space first very important. I'm not sure what rules you were using, but there is no cost difference between straight and curved track in AoS: only if you're building over someone else's track. In RT you can't even cross over other people's track, so I'm not sure how you are comparing those factors. On the town rule, it adds a depth, not just rules. You have to make decisions about whether to build into a town or try to urbanize it first. The extra points you get for building into a town instead of a city can make the difference between winning and losing at game end, which means you have to make a decision about whether and how much to invest in particular towns. Removing the rules would certainly simplify the game, no argument there. But improve it? Not in my opinion.

5. Income Reduction: I greatly -- GREATLY -- dislike RT's income system. AoS's system helps catch runaway leaders, but allows you to still run as hard and as fast as you can if you want to. RT penalizes you in a way that can easily cost you the game: it's not a system to prevent runaway leaders, it's a system to punish leaders and make them easy to overtake. That said, AoS's system is also flawed, but for a different reason: because income reduction points are so clearly delineated, good players game the system, either moving just enough goods to prevent them from popping up to the next level (where moving 1 point over the line actually costs you a point), or actually moving goods over another player's track to push them up one point so that they do suffer the extra -2. One-point increments would completey solve the problem.

6. Cosmetics: Well, yeah. RT is definitely much prettier. I certainly with AoS looked like that.

To sum: my impression is that you like easier games where you're not challenged to make the best possible decision every turn. All of your complaints about AoS (except the cosmetic issue) seem to be about streamlining play and making decisions easier. And if that's your bag, more power to you, but man, it's not for me. I'd play RT one more time, maybe twice. But only if I was in the mood for a light game.

-- Matthew

Rick-Holzgrafe
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Railroad Tycoon = Age of Steam, only much better

FastLearner wrote:
I'm not sure what rules you were using, but there is no cost difference between straight and curved track in AoS: only if you're building over someone else's track. In RT you can't even cross over other people's track, so I'm not sure how you are comparing those factors.

You may have been playing RRT with the wrong rules; cross-overs are allowed. From the manual (available from the Eagle Games website here:

Quote:
Players can build cross-over track pieces as necessary but cannot
redirect another player’s track. The cost for building cross-over
track is the same as regular track.

Having never played AoS, I will stay out of the rest of this discussion. :)

FastLearner
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Railroad Tycoon = Age of Steam, only much better

D'oh!

Now I remember what was missing: 60 degree turns.

sedjtroll
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Railroad Tycoon = Age of Steam, only much better

FastLearner:
It's pretty clear that there are intricacies of AoS that I have not yet experienced... and for that reason I am likely to play the game again at some point (i.e. I wouldn't refuse to play) - just not instead of RRT.

It also seems clear to me that you have missed some of the intricacies of RRT, so I hope you'll play it some more as well.

One thing I'd like to clarify is your point that my preference appears to be an easier game. While that may be true, or may at least be one way of looking at it, I think there's more to it that that. I think my underlying point in the first place is that RRT is NOT an 'easier' game than AoS. I have played many games of RRT that are just as tense and exciting as AoS is/has been/is purported to be. The fact that you can't bankrupt yourself, and that through good play you might overcome a small mistake, does not make the game easier... if you play poorly, or make a perponderance of mistakes (and your opponents don't), you will lose every time - just like in AoS.

You made a comment about the income reduction in RRT that I don't understand at all. I'm not sure how this reduction punishes the leader, and I'm also not sure how 'punishing the leader' is different from 'keeping a leader from running away'. The income dropoff is virtually the same in the two games, but with RRT it's a much smoother curve with many more datapoints, while in AoS it's jumpy and awkward liike you described. The fact that the income drops back down combined with the stock which you take during the game can really punish people for taking too much stock. You (and others ) have argued that being able to take stock willy nilly in RRT makes the game easier, and implied that it's almost not possible to 'take too much' stock- by comparison in AoS if you take too much stock, it's readily apparant right away (especially if it bankrupts you). In RRT you can take on a long term strategy of going into debt in order to build a moneymaking railroad network, and if you do a good job you will come out ahead - but if the game goes too long, then your debt will start to cost you dearly.

I'll note here that the only way to play RRT is when you get up above 100 points, you only get $9K income. There are people who actually increase the income again (based on some idiotic statement in the rules which implies that the income will rise after it drops off, but that makes no sense) - and I've played that way before. I agree that in that case, a leader can run away with the game.

- Seth

FastLearner
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Railroad Tycoon = Age of Steam, only much better

In AoS if you work really hard in your turn to move some goods and get ahead, you will be in a better position. You will receive even more income, furthering your ability to grow. Income reduction means if you're ahead you'll be pushed back some, but you're still getting more income than the players behind you in points. The harder you push, the more you can do, with some retarding to keep you from running away to far.

In RT you start receiving less and less income, making it harder and harder to do anything useful. The players behind you receive more income than you do, allowing them to set up big scores that can easily push them past you while you can do less and less. The harder you push, the less you can do, not just retarding your growth but actually making it potentially impossible.

In AoS I am always rewarded for doing well, more than the guys behind me. RT punishes me for being ahead.

Scurra
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Railroad Tycoon = Age of Steam, only much better

Much as I hate to agree with Sebastian, he's right. And much as I hate to agree with Seth, he's probably right too. The problem for me is that AoS and RRT are clearly different games, and comparing them is invidious. It's not quite the same as comparing, say, Ticket to Ride and Ticket to Ride: Europe, in which the fundamental system is the same, but the details are different.
Although RRT shares many things in common with AoS, it explores them in hugely different ways, so that the tension points are very different (at least in my limited experience: I've only played RRT a couple of times and watched it a couple more.) There are differences in almost all the key aspects (stock, income, track-laying, actions etc.) which makes comparing them not useful. I'd be inclined to suggest that Seth needs to play both Lancashire Rails (or one of its siblings) and Volldampt as well before he can say that RRT is a superior version of AoS. I think he might then consider that they are all part of an interesting game family, each with their own advantages and disadvantages.

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Railroad Tycoon = Age of Steam, only much better

sedjtroll wrote:
One thing I'd like to clarify is your point that my preference appears to be an easier game. While that may be true, or may at least be one way of looking at it, I think there's more to it that that. I think my underlying point in the first place is that RRT is NOT an 'easier' game than AoS. I have played many games of RRT that are just as tense and exciting as AoS is/has been/is purported to be.

As you've played AoS once with novice players, I think that the only one of those that you can validly say is 'is purported to be'. And since a lot of other people purport it to be more tense and exciting, I'm not sure you can even say that ;).

I think I should stop being antagonistic now, though. Suffice it to say that a number of people who's opinion I value have played both AoS and RRT. They consider both good games in their own ways, but based on their comments, I suspect I'll continue preferring AoS. That's not to say I wouldn't play RRT if offered, but due to it's size, it rarely makes it out to the gaming group that I attend.

sedjtroll
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FastLearner wrote:
In AoS if you work really hard in your turn to move some goods and get ahead, you will be in a better position. You will receive even more income, furthering your ability to grow. Income reduction means if you're ahead you'll be pushed back some, but you're still getting more income than the players behind you in points.

This is not true - you subtract stock from points to get income. If you took out more stock than me, and or have a larger train (in order to do this pushing real hard for points), and you get knocked down 4 points, you may well make less money than me.

RRT has this same dynamic... and then some. If you take out more stock to build/upgrade/etc, then I may get more income than you - even if you're further along the VP track. The point is though, that you'll be set up to make a series of large deliveries (or whatever) without having to spend more money, while I will be less advanced in my setup. Therefore, if you did a good job "working really hard in your turns to get ahead", then you WILL be in a better position.

In AoS you are punished severely and immediately for issuing stock, especially too much stock. In RRT you are also punished, but it's not as immediate, and evidently not as obvious, and many of the people posting in my thread at BGG (as well as some of them here) take that to be somehow different - when it's really pretty much the same thing.

You mention bing in a better position. In AoS you appear to mean 'better position on the scoring track', while in RRT position is determined on the board rather than the scoring track. I suppose that's why I like RRT so much better.

Quote:
The harder you push, the more you can do, with some retarding to keep you from running away to far.

Which game are you referring o here? Because this seems to apply to both. I guess it depends on your definitions of "push" and "do". It does not cost money to deliver goods. In RRT one of the possible strategies is to basically go into a lot of debt, pay a bunch of money up front, and then stop spending and make big deliveries. Another is to take very little stock, and try to be more efficient with your money. In AoS that first strategy isn't really an option at all - there's just no time for it, and the game system punishes stock too immediately for it.

Quote:
In RT you start receiving less and less income, making it harder and harder to do anything useful.

Except deliver goods. Oh, and taking City Growth or New Industry to get more goods to deliver also does not cost money.

I guess another way to look at your statement is that while in RRT you get less and less income, making it harder, in AoS it's hard to do useful things right off the bat...

Quote:
The players behind you receive more income than you do, allowing them to set up big scores that can easily push them past you while you can do less and less.

Does this not put them in the same position as you, "unable to do anything useful"? Or do other players get to continue doing useful things after their income drops, thereby leaving you in the dust. If that's the case, it sounds like you maybe took too much stock and ran out of gas delivering where you built (!)

Quote:
The harder you push, the less you can do, not just retarding your growth but actually making it potentially impossible.
I guess I'm not sure what you mean by 'the harder you push'. In RRT you can always do stuff. If you run out of goods, you can build track to deliver more. If you don't have the money, then you can take stock if you have to. If you do a bad job, then that stock might kill you later in the game though - but in that case, you did a bad job... in AoS when you go bankrupt for doing a bad job, noone suggests that's the game's fault...

Quote:
In AoS I am always rewarded for doing well, more than the guys behind me. RT punishes me for being ahead.
I think the difference here is what I was referring to as long term vs short term strategies. At BGG someone suggested that in AoS 2 turns ahead *is* long term... while in RRT, long term is more far reaching.

I think perhaps you're the one that likes 'easier' games... games where you don't have to think more than 2 or 3 turns ahead ;)

Seriously though - I think maybe we've uncovered the fundamental difference between AoS and RRT - scope. RRT's long term strategy involves game-length (many turns), while the short term strategy involves the current and next few turns. In AoS, all there is is the current and next few turns.

Sebastian
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Railroad Tycoon = Age of Steam, only much better

sedjtroll wrote:

Which game are you referring o here? Because this seems to apply to both. I guess it depends on your definitions of "push" and "do". It does not cost money to deliver goods. In RRT one of the possible strategies is to basically go into a lot of debt, pay a bunch of money up front, and then stop spending and make big deliveries. Another is to take very little stock, and try to be more efficient with your money. In AoS that first strategy isn't really an option at all - there's just no time for it, and the game system punishes stock too immediately for it.

...

Seriously though - I think maybe we've uncovered the fundamental difference between AoS and RRT - scope. RRT's long term strategy involves game-length (many turns), while the short term strategy involves the current and next few turns. In AoS, all there is is the current and next few turns.

I really think that you should play AoS with good players before claiming either of the things above.

jwarrend
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Railroad Tycoon = Age of Steam, only much better

Seth, one of the dominant themes in your analysis seems to be that AoS lacks long term strategy because of the limited number of turns. What is your analysis of games like Princes of Florence or Wallenstein, each of which also has 6-7 turns for each player? Do you feel that these games have long-term strategy?

I haven't actually played AoS or RRT so I couldn't comment on whether they are or are not strategic, but it seems to me that it might be helpful to look at game duration in addition to or even instead of absolute number of turns; if a game lasts 2.5 hours and if my plans made in the first 30 minutes will affect the final 30 minutes of the game, then I think it's quite reasonable to consider the game to have an ingredient of long-range strategy, even if it doesn't have a large number of turns.

-J

zaiga
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Railroad Tycoon = Age of Steam, only much better

jwarrend wrote:
I haven't actually played AoS or RRT so I couldn't comment on whether they are or are not strategic, but it seems to me that it might be helpful to look at game duration in addition to or even instead of absolute number of turns; if a game lasts 2.5 hours and if my plans made in the first 30 minutes will affect the final 30 minutes of the game, then I think it's quite reasonable to consider the game to have an ingredient of long-range strategy, even if it doesn't have a large number of turns.

I don't agree with that. A long playing time has very little to do with whether a game is strategic or not. If a game takes a long time because of massive downtime, and/or because of fiddliness, then I don't think that makes a game strategic. Also, some short games (short as in playing time) can be very strategic.

What may be deceiving is the term "turn". Amun-Re has only six turns, but each turn consists of several phases, each consisting of several decision points, giving enough scope for strategic play.

Another example. Princes of Florence consists of seven turns. On average a player will participate in three auctions per turn (in a 5-player game) and he will take 2 actions, each of which is a decision point. That makes for 35 decisions points. Sometimes taking a certain action offers another decision, such as taking a prestige card or bonus card, and sometimes during an auction you will have to multiple decisions. So, I'd say an average game of Princes of Florence has 40 or so decision points per player, even though it only has 7 turns. The fact that it takes 2 hours to play is irrelevant as to whether the game is strategic or not.

sedjtroll
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Railroad Tycoon = Age of Steam, only much better

Rene answered that, probably more elegantly than I did. Number of decisions... In AoS there are 6- turns, and in each turn you make about 6 or so decisions, about 2 of which lead to more decisions. In RRT there are a lot more Game Turns than that, and in each you make about 4 decisions, 3 of which can lead to further decisions. A lot more happens in a game of RRT.

Regarding Wallenstein, I do think it seems to end fairly abruptly. I've only played it 3 times, and I've not played anything like it before really, but from my experience so far I think it's allright - I think it ends abruptly, and I don't like not being able to see some of the order of actions, and the player order being random also annoys me somewhat.

zaiga
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Railroad Tycoon = Age of Steam, only much better

sedjtroll wrote:
Regarding Wallenstein, I do think it seems to end fairly abruptly. I've only played it 3 times, and I've not played anything like it before really, but from my experience so far I think it's allright - I think it ends abruptly, and I don't like not being able to see some of the order of actions, and the player order being random also annoys me somewhat.

I wasn't too hot on Wallenstein either. There were a bunch of interesting mechanics, but they didn't seem to add up to an interesting game. There was a bit of randomness that bugged me, such as the random order of the last five, face down actions, and the possibly huge variability of the grain reduction in winter. I can cope with randomness, it can even make a game fun, but in the case of Wallenstein I thought there would have been better solutions.

What most annoyed me, however, was the scoring system that just seemed tacked on, and not very well integrated with the rest of the mechanics. I have also got this feeling in Alhambra - another Henn game -where it is more forgiveable, because Alhambra is a much lighter game, but even moreso in Wallenstein. It just seems as if Henn came up with a bunch of cool mechanics for a war game and then at the last moment added a majority scoring mechanic, because you also need a winner.

Then again, I only played the game once, and would like to play again, just to see if my opinions hold up! Anyway, the cube tower is really cool!

Scurra
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Railroad Tycoon = Age of Steam, only much better

sedjtroll wrote:
In AoS there are 6- turns, and in each turn you make about 6 or so decisions, about 2 of which lead to more decisions. In RRT there are a lot more Game Turns than that, and in each you make about 4 decisions, 3 of which can lead to further decisions. A lot more happens in a game of RRT.
No-one is disputing that a lot more happens in RRT. What's at issue is whether they are important decisions. If you have more decision points, then a good player has more chances to pull ahead, and a middling player has more chances to recover from unfortunate choices. Very tightly drawn games (AoS, PoF, even Puerto Rico to an extent) try to ensure that every one of your decisions is crucial. Looser, more friendly games factor the "botched move" into the design and find different ways of ensuring that a good player doesn't just race away with the game - which the design may, or may not, achieve.

jwarrend
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Railroad Tycoon = Age of Steam, only much better

zaiga wrote:
A long playing time has very little to do with whether a game is strategic or not. If a game takes a long time because of massive downtime, and/or because of fiddliness, then I don't think that makes a game strategic.

Of course; "strategy" is a statement about the long term ramifications of one's actions. A game is strategic if it requires a player to plan ahead, and tactical if it requires a player to concentrate on the here and now. (Loosely, anyway). My point was that Seth is arguing that AoS is not strategic on the grounds that it has a small number of turns. But I would say that a game where your early turn plans affect your late-game opportunities is strategic by definition.

Of course a game's length may be a result of "negative" factors like downtime or administrative stuff. And of course length alone doesn't make a game strategic. But I continue to think that how your decision making is distributed over that length is a factor.

Quote:
So, I'd say an average game of Princes of Florence has 40 or so decision points per player, even though it only has 7 turns.

I think it's equally wrong to look at absolute number of decision points to determine how strategic a game is; strategy is only about how temporally connected your decisions are, not about how many of them you get to make. I'm sure you can think of games with lots of decisions but limited strategy.

Quote:
A lot more happens in a game of RRT.

I don't dispute this at all, but it isn't really germane to the question I was asking. I don't actually have much interest in which game is "better", not having played either; I'm more interested in understanding how you came to a very negative assessment of a highly touted game after one playing. You said that AoS is not very strategic, and I'm questioning whether your sense of what constitutes a strategic game is a factor in that assessment.

Quote:
Regarding Wallenstein, I do think it seems to end fairly abruptly. I've only played it 3 times, and I've not played anything like it before really, but from my experience so far I think it's allright - I think it ends abruptly, and I don't like not being able to see some of the order of actions, and the player order being random also annoys me somewhat.

Again, my point wasn't to ask whether you like the game or not so much as whether you think it's a strategic game or not.

Quote:
There was a bit of randomness that bugged me, such as the random order of the last five, face down actions, and the possibly huge variability of the grain reduction in winter. I can cope with randomness, it can even make a game fun, but in the case of Wallenstein I thought there would have been better solutions.

Having played the game a fair bit, I think these random factors that you mention are not the dominant ones. The cube tower is the great randomizer, and can make or break your fortunes. For the most part it evens out over the game, and for the most part a good player will do well over the course of many games, but internal to one game, luck does play a big role. It's definitely not a "pure" strategy game.

I don't understand the complaint about the face down actions, though; I think this bit of uncertainty is actually crucial to making the action planning so exciting -- "Do I try to build a palace and a church, hoping that the 'Gold' action will come up before either of those actions, or do I go with just a palace, which I really need and which is all I can afford absent the gold action?" The action selection mechanic is, to me, the centerpiece of the game and its most successful feature.

Quote:
What most annoyed me, however, was the scoring system that just seemed tacked on, and not very well integrated with the rest of the mechanics.

What bothers me about the scoring system is that it's not well integrated with the theme; something I've set out to rectify in my latest design. But I've never thought about the scoring system as being tacked on or not fitting in with the mechanics. With each scoring category (territories owned, absolute # of buildings, and majorities), there are pluses and minuses, and as a result, you want to strike a good balance between each of these three aspects, but obviously they're all interwoven; you can't build a lot of buildings if you don't have a lot of territories, and you can't go for majorities in regions that you don't have a good presence, etc. Perhaps you could elaborate on where you feel the disconnect lies between the mechanics and the scoring? I've not heard that opinion expressed before and would be interested to understand it more fully.

-Jeff

zaiga
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Railroad Tycoon = Age of Steam, only much better

jwarrend wrote:
Of course; "strategy" is a statement about the long term ramifications of one's actions. A game is strategic if it requires a player to plan ahead, and tactical if it requires a player to concentrate on the here and now. (Loosely, anyway). My point was that Seth is arguing that AoS is not strategic on the grounds that it has a small number of turns. But I would say that a game where your early turn plans affect your late-game opportunities is strategic by definition.

Of course a game's length may be a result of "negative" factors like downtime or administrative stuff. And of course length alone doesn't make a game strategic. But I continue to think that how your decision making is distributed over that length is a factor.

Jeff, I think we agree. Seth's point was, I believe, that in AoS there's not much room for long-term strategy because the game only lasts 6 turn. You countered that by saying that it's not so much the number of turns that matter (with which I agree), but the actual playing time (with which I disagree). What matters is the number of decision points, and how many decision points you have to plan ahead. Of course, the difficulty of these decisions also matters, which is difficult to measure.

Quote:
I think it's equally wrong to look at absolute number of decision points to determine how strategic a game is; strategy is only about how temporally connected your decisions are, not about how many of them you get to make. I'm sure you can think of games with lots of decisions but limited strategy.

Agreed 100%. This was what I was trying to make clear.

Quote:
Perhaps you could elaborate on where you feel the disconnect lies between the mechanics and the scoring? I've not heard that opinion expressed before and would be interested to understand it more fully.

It's been a while since I played it, so my recollection of it is hazy. I hope to play Wallenstein ago some day soon, and then I'll elaborate on it.

sedjtroll
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Railroad Tycoon = Age of Steam, only much better

jwarrend wrote:
I don't actually have much interest in which game is "better", not having played either; I'm more interested in understanding how you came to a very negative assessment of a highly touted game after one playing. You said that AoS is not very strategic, and I'm questioning whether your sense of what constitutes a strategic game is a factor in that assessment.

Please note that my assessment of AoS is not negative in an absolute sense, just relative to Railroad Tycoon. My purpose was to combat the negative press from Age of Steam fans who refer to Railroad Tycoon as a Dumbed Down version (which has a very negative connotation), also without having played the game.

I'm not saying AoS is not strategic, I'm saying that compared to a 'longer' game like RRT, which is similar in many respects and is larger in scope, AoS is more tactical. the long term strategic decisions people have been mentioning in these threads to support AoS has long term strategy, those same decisions occur in RRT as short (or mid-range) decisions.

Of course my sense of what constitutes a strategic game factors into this assessment. AoS is clearly strategic, and it has long term and short term decisions to make. RRT is also strategic, and has long and short term decisions. When I compare the two, AoS's long term looks like RRT's short term, so I say RRT has more strategic scope. Even if the 'value' (difficulty? Ramifications?) of each individual decision is less in RRT than in AoS. I don't believe it's so much less that the sum total of them doesn't outweigh that of AoS.

So to answer your question:
How did I came to a very negative assessment of a highly touted game after one playing? I compared AoS to RRT and found that RRT had more strategic scope, and in comparison tp RRT my assessment of AoS was negative. Specificaly, AoS felt like an early prototype of RRT, as I think I mentioned in my original post.

Quote:
Regarding Wallenstein...
Again, my point wasn't to ask whether you like the game or not so much as whether you think it's a strategic game or not.

Sure, it's a strategic game. There are definitely strategic and tactical decisions to be made. At the moment I've not played a similar game that I've found to have more strategic scope, or one that's more fun, or anything like that, however it wouldn't suprise me if one day such a game exists - based on the abrupt ending (you only play 6 rounds, though you do sort of do a lot of stuff each round) and only having 2 scoring rounds.

- Seth

blackjon
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Hybrid?

Well, it looks like my 1st post on BGDF is to dive into a good argument.

I own AoS and RRT, have a very experienced group, and we've played both games quite a few times. IMO, the best game is a little bit of both w/ some house rules added as well.

We play RRT w/ the bidding mechanice from AoS. If you don't, then the guy sitting to the left of the man w/ all the $$$ has a huge advantage since he'll be able to go 2nd much of the time at no cost to himself.

Another big problem w/ RRT are the Rail Baron cards that are dealt to each player during set up. They're completely unbalanced. I can get more points for issuing fewer shares than anyone (which can be a good tactic anyway) than if I was the poor guy who got the New York to Chicago link victory condition. If you want to complete that link, especially w/ 4 or 5 players, you just about have to focus on that alone to have any hopes of completing it. Note that New York only has 3 nodes to connect to, and it's in the ever populer and crowded NE. The answer is to not use them. It takes out some of the luck factor.

Another problem is the 3 starting cards. If you use them as is, then you have to make whoever goes 1st in round 1 pay dearly for it. It's way too easy to steamroll and fulfill all 3 of these. And, if there's a goods delivery card out that works in conjunction w/ these, and the 1st player can score that as well w/o having to invest a lot of $$$ to go 1st, you can pretty much call the game early. There's a 'Rainbow Rail' variant on BGG that helps w/ this problem, although doesn't fix it entirely.

Even w/ these 'fixes', RRT still has a runaway winner problem that can be very hard to come back from. I haven't really experienced that w/ AoS.

I guess I'd have to say that AoS is a better game, but it can be so fidgety and have so much downtime that I'm never sure if I actually had fun playing it when I'm done. I always have fun playing RRT, and it feels more competitive w/ the above changes.

My 2 cents.

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