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New Contest?

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Anonymous

Yeah, I reprinted this from another topic... but figured it deserved its own.

Probably just my meglomania kicking in... anyway...
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...I don't want to scoop hpox or Darkehorse on this, but we've been thinking of sponsoring another contest, but under some rather rigid guidelines.

The not so great news: It'll be a micro-game contest.

The better news: The winner gets published, under license, by us.

The sigh of relief news: We'll post the contract that will be quid-pro-quo for the winner before the contest ever begins.

Contest II: This time its personal...

The Bad news: We'll post a list of materials that the designer may use... nothing outside of that list will be ok, and use of anything outside the list will mean immediate disqualification.

The so-so news: We'll be doing this as a 'commercially-minded' contest... with an eye towards playability, marketability, cost vs.profit, and potential sales...

The Cool news: You GET published

...the most probable basis will be:
Winner automatically recieves a payment of $50, and a guarantee that the product will be put through distribution into the games industry. Sales beyond 200 units will net the designer a royalty of $0.10 - $0.14 per game sold (which isn't bad on a game that retails for $5,$6, or $7...and therefore has a max wholesale of $2.80... it comes to an average of a 5% royalty on gross, 10% on profit).

...and again, the entire 'deal' will be posted here BEFORE the contest begins. ..and yes, written contracts will be exchanged as well. we have a lawyer on staff, and our standard deal is for 2 years, after which you can send your game to a larger company than ours and make more money :-). In any case, the 'rights' will remain with the creator, we'd be pubbing under license.

Designer will also have the option of demanding their name on the cover of the product. (It only doesn't go on there if the designer says, "don't".)

Probable list of components that can be used includes and is limited to the following:

6 colors of pawns

6 colors of space ships (although there are two kinds available)

six-sided dice

Score pads in B&W... up to 50 pages and up to 5X8 inches in size.

Anything that can be created by printing one-sided on cardstock in one color (black, although any color cardstock can be used) in sizes up to 5X8. Fold-over pieces can be created in this fashion for board games.

Anything that can be Printed on 60#paper one color (black).

Game Boards printed (one color) on card stock can be as large as 11X15 inches.

Plastic T-stands - 1/2 inch wide.

Oh... and the gang here at ICGD will be your judges... after all, we're prepared to risk our money producing it . We like humor games, but we aren't against others, so long as they'll sell. ..and I'm thinking that other than that the game must be made with the listed componentry, and must be a micro (fit in a 6X9 baggy), - no theme or other restrictions.

Why post this if I'm not yet ready to do it (and I'm still a bit buried)...?

For feedback, of course. Thoughts please... and feel free to be brutal.

hpox
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Joined: 12/31/1969
New Contest?

Yeah! You told me about this last year right? Personally, I think it's a very good idea for a contest. Micro games are fun to design and a contest where the 1st prize is getting your game published is extremely tempting.

From looking at your line of games, I guess humor will be a big point or are you looking for something more serious this time? Never mind you answered that!

Thumbs up from me! :D

Anonymous
New Contest?

This contest sounds fun. It would probably be a good idea to have some further limitations, to avoid people overdoing the number of dice, pawns, cards etc. used in the game.

Maybe you could list approximate costs on each compponent, and put a limit on the total cost. If you don't want to reveal the actual cost of the components, you can use "pseudocents" that are roughly proportional to the real cost, but can't be used to know exactly what they cost.

Also, for those of us who aren't artists, will you be satisfied with entries with little or no artwork but just written descriptions of what should be pictured?

You also mentioned that the cardstock could be coloured (but only printed in black). What colours are available and is it possible to use several colours in the same game (e.g, one colour per player)? Similarly, what are the colours of the pawns? Red, green, blue, yellow, white and black would be my guess, but I may be wrong.

You say that cardstock can be up to 5x8". Are there any limitations to shape, i.e., are hexagonal or round pieces possible or only rectangular? Can we expect people to cut non-rectangualr shapes out of rectangular sheets? If so, how much cutting work woul d be acceptable?

To sum up, it woud be a good idea to be very precise about what limitations you have, both hard (you definitely can't do this) and soft (we would prefer you not to do this, and it would detract from your score if you do, but we don't actually forbid it).

Torben

doho123
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New Contest?

Sounds like an excellent idea to me. I think it's somewhat easy (relative) to come up with a game with unlimited peices/cards/etc. But it's also kind of interesting what you can get out of a small list of stuff. Piecepack games are also iteresting in this way.

Dralius
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New Contest?

Sounds great whatever the final restrictions/requirement are :!:

I hope the contract will include several copies of the game. On the odd chance the other contestants were to fall prey to “Random :twisted: Accidents” and I were to win I would need some copies to reward my play testers with.

Anonymous
New Contest?

Dralius wrote:
On the odd chance the other contestants were to fall prey to “Random :twisted: Accidents” ...

Can I be your insurance salesman?

"It would be unfortunate if something bad were to happen to your design...not that I'm saying something bad's gonna happen..."

Anonymous
New Contest?

Further to the contest (lets call this, 'the nasty details').

Component prices WILL be posted... and the maximum 'cost' will be 1/8th of the retail price... so a game costing $2.00 in components would need to be priced at $16.00 retail... which would of course be too much for a micro.

I'll put up a revised list later today.

Authors would be gauranteed 6 copies of the published version for their portfolios. Sorry I didn't mention that earlier, and yes, thats pretty standard. In addition, up to 2 dozen more are available to the designer AT COST (not wholesale, actual cost) at the time of release... and thereafter, as many copies as they wish at wholesale price.

Revised list/rules later today.

XXOOCC

Anonymous
New Contest?

REVISED RULES OF THE COMPETITION

1) The product/game design submitted must be a micro-game, i.e., a ready-to-play unit that needs only articles commonly found around the average non-gamer's residence... (pencils, scratch paper, etc) all other components necessary for play must be included. Product must also fit into a 6"X9" ziplock baggie.

2) The product must be suitable for retail pricing at $6-$10 US. In addition, the cost of the product may not exceed 1/6th of the retail price.

3) Winner to be published by ICGD, with the finished product to be sent through standard channels of hobby game distribution. Winner to recieve an initial payment of $50.00 under a license contract (to publish) and an additional royalty of 5% on gross sales beyond 200 units. 6 copies to be shipped to designer upon release, with another (up to) 24 units to be added to that at production cost at the behest of the designer (a possibility of 30 'comp' games total). Designers name to appear on the cover of the product.

4) Development beyond the prototype/design stage to be a conjunctive effort between ICGD and the designer (designer gets some say-so) with the entire process of development, marketing, and sales to be posted here on the bgdf. (Step-by-step through the entire process of prototype to store shelf).

5) Components that may be used in the process... and processes that may be used, included below, along with pricing:

6 colors of pawns ($0.01 per pawn)

6 colors of space ships (although there are two kinds available) ($0.02 per ship)

six-sided dice ($0.03 per die)

Score pads in B&W... up to 60 pages and up to 5X8 inches in size.
($0.03 per 8.5X11 page... so a 1/4 page scorepad with 40 sheets costs $0.30)

Anything that can be created by printing one-sided on cardstock in one color (black, although any color cardstock can be used) in sizes up to 5X8. Fold-over pieces can be created in this fashion for board games.
($0.09 per 8.5 X11 sheet... max size however, is 8 x5.5 - at $0.045 per)

Anything that can be Printed on 60#paper one color (black). ($0.03 per side))

Game Boards printed (one color) on card stock can be as large as 11X15 inches. ($0.15 per 11X15)

Plastic T-stands - 1/2 inch wide. ($0.02 each)

Process costs:
Set-up, Per 8.5 X11 image (printed) : $0.0025 - (4 to a penny)
Coallation, per 6 pages (24 in duplex digest-sized) : $0.10
Coallation of parts (like pawns), per ten of a kind or less: $0.05
Trimming (pads, pieces on card stock, etc): $0.01 per trim
Stuffing: $0.10 (putting everything together in a baggie)

So... Who's Your Daddy? for example...

Has a 16 -page rule book (4 duplex pages, or 8 sides, in digest size), with cover (also printed duplex)
8X $0.03 = $0.24 + (coallation)$0.10 + (Cover 2 X $0.045) $0.09 + (trim) $0.01 = $0.44

A scorepad with 60 pages (3 to a page): 60 X $0.03 = $1.80/3 = $0.60

Set-up: $0.04 (.02 for the guts, .01 for the cover, 0.01 for the pads)

...and stuffing: $0.10

For a total cost of $1.18 (X 6 = $7.08). Game retails for $7.99

Electronic Prototypes will be accepted for the contest. Mike Leeke and Chris Clark (me) would be the judges, with some help from our standard playtest crew.

The 'license' to produce from the winner would be for 2 years after which either a new contract would be written, or all rights would return to the designer. Contract would be posted here in the download area prior to commencement of the contest. It will be a 'take it or leave it' proposition once the contest begins, but suggestions will be welcomed prior to that time (for changes to the contract).

...and again, every step of the process to posted, publically, here, once a winner is chosen.

Judging on the following criteria (100 point system):
1) playability (33 points) (was it fun?)
2) Marketability (33 points) (would I pick this puppy off the shelf at first glance?)
3) Practicality (33 points) (cost vs. pricing, ease of production and assembly)

Further comments expected :-).

XXOOCC

Anonymous
New Contest?

...and just for those wondering...

Who's Your Daddy? has sold about 1100 units... so

$1.18 X 1100 units = We spent $1298.00 producing it.

(It costs about $.20 to ship, solicit, and invoice WYD per unit)
1100 X $0.20 = We spent $220.00 shipping, marketing, and administering this product.

1100 X $7.95 = $8,745.00 X 40% = We grossed $3,498.00 selling it wholesale.

$3498.00 - $1298.00 = $2200 - $220.00 = $1980.00 net profits

...from which our contest winner's stipend would be...

$50 +
(7.95 x.4) = 3.18 x 5% = $.159 X (1100 -200) = $143.10

...0r $50 + 143.10 ... or $193.10 + 6 copies of the game... or slightly less than 10% (9.7525%) of the profits to the designer. Royalties will NOT be calculated on profits, however, but on actual gross sales. I plan to post both the numbers and the demographics on those sales here as well.

\XXOOCC

phpbbadmin
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My thoughts

Chris,

First I want to thank you for setting up this contest. I look forward to trying my hand in this one, for sure! I have a few questions however:

Are things permitted that need to be 'cut out'? For instance a sheet of chits? I assume that goes with the trimming cost (or is this cost just the cost to trim off white space?), but does the per trim cost mean per straight edge cut? For instance, if I have a sheet of 10 by 10 chits and it requires 20 cuts (10 horizontal and 10 vertical), does that make the trim cost for that sheet $.20? Can we assume/require that the end user will cut the sheet out themselves and save on costs?

Also, what is the feasibility of producing cards with the allowable cardstock? Will it be too flimsy? Will it be too transparent? I assume since we can only print on one side (I.E. We can't print a opaque pattern on the card back) that it will be too transparent.

That's all I can think of for now.. Again, I think an excel spreadsheet where we could plug in numbers for costs would prove invaluable to us as we went through the design process.

Thanks,
Michael

Anonymous
New Contest?

Okay, some good questions, so here goes... Mike asked...

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Are things permitted that need to be 'cut out'? For instance a sheet of chits? I assume that goes with the trimming cost (or is this cost just the cost to trim off white space?), but does the per trim cost mean per straight edge cut? For instance, if I have a sheet of 10 by 10 chits and it requires 20 cuts (10 horizontal and 10 vertical), does that make the trim cost for that sheet $.20? Can we assume/require that the end user will cut the sheet out themselves and save on costs? >>

we do them as foldovers, because 'chits' really need to be on chipboard to be usable... and, for the most part, we let the customer cut them out of cardstock. Heavy cardstock is about the thickness of an uncoated biz card (slightly lighter). Foldovers are eminently ok (All of the "When Good... Go Bad" games use them as do Catskills, Anyville, Abduls' Adventure... suffice it to say that we use them a lot)... but know how many fit on a page. If folks would like an example that can be posted here of what a "foldover" looks like, holler. The nice thing about a foldover that stands up is that its easier to grasp than a standard 'chit', even if done on chipboard, while being just as stackable.
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Also, what is the feasibility of producing cards with the allowable cardstock? Will it be too flimsy? Will it be too transparent? I assume since we can only print on one side (I.E. We can't print a opaque pattern on the card back) that it will be too transparent. >>

We can print cards, but the 'see-through factor' is actually second to durability. If the cards are incidental to play (like they are in Monopoly), then they are ok... If they are the primary random play generator, they don't hold up very well when cut from cardstock... they don't take being shuffled very well. (At least not very often). A good standard 'card' is laminated so that it will shuffle... and lamination is NOT available.
*****************

That's all I can think of for now.. Again, I think an excel spreadsheet where we could plug in numbers for costs would prove invaluable to us as we went through the design process.
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I use one when I compute, but there are costs involved there that will not be part of the equation (shipping, and so forth)...

so... make one :-).

Mine took me all of 20 mins to do, although again, its got a LOT more on it than what I want contestants concerned with, including sales over time, demographics, regionally related costing, customer specific costing, buying patterns, etc.

ALL of our accounting is done via Excel.

XXOOCC

phpbbadmin
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reply

XXOOCC wrote:
Okay, some good questions, so here goes... Mike asked...

we do them as foldovers, because 'chits' really need to be on chipboard to be usable... and, for the most part, we let the customer cut them out of cardstock. Heavy cardstock is about the thickness of an uncoated biz card (slightly lighter). Foldovers are eminently ok (All of the "When Good... Go Bad" games use them as do Catskills, Anyville, Abduls' Adventure... suffice it to say that we use them a lot)... but know how many fit on a page. If folks would like an example that can be posted here of what a "foldover" looks like, holler. The nice thing about a foldover that stands up is that its easier to grasp than a standard 'chit', even if done on chipboard, while being just as stackable.

Yes I would like an example of this if you can dig it up.
******************************************

Quote:

We can print cards, but the 'see-through factor' is actually second to durability. If the cards are incidental to play (like they are in Monopoly), then they are ok... If they are the primary random play generator, they don't hold up very well when cut from cardstock... they don't take being shuffled very well. (At least not very often). A good standard 'card' is laminated so that it will shuffle... and lamination is NOT available.

Major bummer. Oh well, I will work around this problem.

Quote:

That's all I can think of for now.. Again, I think an excel spreadsheet where we could plug in numbers for costs would prove invaluable to us as we went through the design process.
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I use one when I compute, but there are costs involved there that will not be part of the equation (shipping, and so forth)...

so... make one :-).

Normally I would with no problem, but I don't have the necessary grasp of the costs to do so, which is why I asked for one. :D Partially to compute the costs and partially to get a better understanding of them..

-Darke

zaiga
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Joined: 12/31/1969
New Contest?

So, when is the deadline? 8)

And, do you want actual, physical prototypes or do you also accept prototypes in digital format?

- René Wiersma

jwarrend
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Joined: 08/03/2008
New Contest?

XXOOCC wrote:
REVISED RULES OF THE COMPETITION

Thanks for posting this, Chris, this sounds like a fun challenge. I might try to put something together. Do you have a deadline in mind yet?

Quote:

5) Components that may be used in the process... and processes that may be used, included below, along with pricing:

6 colors of pawns ($0.01 per pawn)

6 colors of space ships (although there are two kinds available) ($0.02 per ship)

Hmm...it seems like you're steering the game towards being "space-themed". Is that deliberate? Are there any other kind of plastic "bits" that might be available?

Quote:

So... Who's Your Daddy? for example...
Has a 16 -page rule book (4 duplex pages, or 8 sides, in digest size), with cover (also printed duplex)
8X $0.03 = $0.24 + (coallation)$0.10 + (Cover 2 X $0.045) $0.09 + (trim) $0.01 = $0.44
A scorepad with 60 pages (3 to a page): 60 X $0.03 = $1.80/3 = $0.60
Set-up: $0.04 (.02 for the guts, .01 for the cover, 0.01 for the pads)
...and stuffing: $0.10
For a total cost of $1.18 (X 6 = $7.08). Game retails for $7.99

So let me get this straight...you have a game with just a rulebook and a scorepad, and we're supposed to include more components and still come in under $1.66 max? Yikes, that's going to be tough!

Quote:

Electronic Prototypes will be accepted for the contest. Mike Leeke and Chris Clark (me) would be the judges, with some help from our standard playtest crew.

I think someone else asked this, but I'm assuming the game doesn't need to be in "ready-to-sell" visual quality, correct? That a visual overhaul will be part of the development process?

Quote:

3) Practicality (33 points) (cost vs. pricing, ease of production and assembly)

This seems superfluous; since you've already specified the cost of components and the maximum cost that a design can have, it seems that every game should be practical for you to produce. I can see that a game that consisted of a board and six pawns would be "easier" for you to produce than a game with a bunch of foldovers to cut out and such, but for 33% of the contest to be about price point when you've already rigidly restricted the cost schedules that you're willing to accept, just doesn't seem to be the right proportion.

Other than that, it sounds like a fun contest and I hope to get something together for it! Thanks for taking a chance on the BGDF community -- it's quite a risk that you're taking, and I (and I think we all) appreciate your confidence in us!

Best,

Jeff

Torrent
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New Contest?

I too would like to see a picture of your Fold-Over's. Do most buyers use glue? or do they fold nice and crisp-like?

Can you describe or point to pictures of the two space-ship types?

What is a T-Stand? My thought is it is a plastic base with a pair of little plastic ridges that you can put paper between to have it stand up. If so, how wide are these ridges? Would it be possible to have a Fold Over inserted into a TStand to have it stand upright?

Quote:
1) The product/game design submitted must be a micro-game, i.e., a ready-to-play unit that needs only articles commonly found around the average non-gamer's residence... (pencils, scratch paper, etc) all other components necessary for play must be included. Product must also fit into a 6"X9" ziplock baggie.
Are Pennies ( or appropriate local currency substitutes) considered part of the 'articles found around a non-gamer's place'?

I don't think I really understand the non-physical bits costs. From what I can gather. There is a base .10 for stuffing. All the paper bits seem to be printed on normal letter pages and sliced in half for the bag size. Per unique Letter Page is a 1/4 cent setup, per 6 pages there is .10 collation (is this only for pages that have a specific order like a rulebook, or for all pages) and a Trimming of .01 (which I don't understand what this entails either, can these be any size or just the 8.5x11 -> 5x9 trim). Every 10 other physical bits has a .05 counting and sorting charge. This is just how I read it, please elaborate and correct as needed.

Also you mention some things in 'Who's your Daddy' are printed Duplex. What is allowed to be Duplexed?

I add my thanks to the rest for the chance you are offering.

Andy

Anonymous
New Contest?

Ok, I'll try and answer everyone's concerns, in order. I'll try to be concise :-).

First, the contest hasn't started yet, and only will so do when I get a bit more caught up around here. Prolly have official dates in a couple of weeks.

Darke: I sent a sample foldover sheet to you from the Gods of Denial proto I worked up. Feel free to post it in the download area. The costs I listed are the ones I'll use for the contest... so costs beyond those I do not feel should worry the designers.... although I'll include them as we do the contest postings/ follow up here on the boards.

Rene: Electronic (Word, tif, jpeg, or pdf - no higher than 5- ) or physical prototypes will be accepted.

jwarrend: No time frame yet... working on that but I'm a bit buried. Its all this darn rpg stuff :-). We're not space-themed... but those are the parts we have in stock, and so I can guarantee their availability. We have pawns, and t-stands for foldovers, or stand alone foldovers, so create any other 2-D parts you can think of using those. I have created a total of 21 of these darned micro-games... all under $1.66... and some are JUST rulebooks. You can NOT create a game that has 200 + parts, no... but that's part of the fun. When Good Villagers... Go Bad has approximately 100 pieces to it... and it costs us (by the numbers given) about $1.12 a unit to produce. Foldovers are your friends. :-)
Visual overhaul and possible tinkering of the game ARE part of the development process.

...and You could score hugely on practicality by making the target game: just a target on white paper... and players drop coins on it to score... but you'd get a playability of zero, abnd a marketing score of zero. AND... should two people design an identical game, with identical marketing capability aesthetically... but one is $0.02 cheaper to produce... that person deserves to win. So no, the practicality issue is not superflous... far from it.
"Should I add a pawn for a track marker (more aesthetic) or use a foldover track marker (cheaper)?" - designer's choice... but you DO get 'graded' on it.

Torrent: The foldovers are meant to stand as small pyramids or triangles while in play. They stack easily this way, and are easily grabbed by players. A T-stand is a t-shaped stand with a slot in the middle in which you insert a playing piece. The original Battletech cardboard mechs came with these... As do the characters for the old fashioned "Clue" and other games. You can insert a foldover in a t-stand (higher aesthetic) although if done on cardstock its not necessary.

Pennies would be something you could expect someone to have, yes. ICGD has a "giveaway game" (used for advertising, but ready-to-play) called Penny Wars which makes just that assumption :-).
The base $0.10 actually covers major component picking, stuffing, and the cost of the ziplocks. The $0.10 for coallation is indeed designed for rulebook pages, meaning that ( if your rulebook is 8.5X5.5 ), Up to 24 pages can be in the rulebook and still cost only $0.10 for coallation (4 pages fit on a single full-size page printed both sides that then is folded into the book).
Trimming refers to cutting the paper to equalize the edge of a rulebook, or cutting multiple sheets in two for fold overs or other parts. Generally, because so many 'parts' can be cut at once, we only calculate the edge trimming on the rulebooks into cost. Trimming actually costs about $.06 per cut, but we can safely cut about 6 rulebooks at a time (based on 36 pages) or cut (in half) about 100 cardstock pages.
Sorting is for things like, "I have 6 pawns of 4 colors each" would entail a $0.20 sorting charge as this is done by hand, and then double checked (quality controlled) for accuracy.
ANYTHING can be duplexed... that simply refers to printing on both sides of any sheet. Bear in mind that the register on our presses is not good enough for precise duplexing (like two-sided pieces) but is fine for duplex covers, pages, and large pices or gameboards, as well as any printing where "front-to-back alignment" need not be more precise than to within a 1/4"

Frankly, I need to get a couple of micro-games on our release schedule, and am working on:
Technical Fowl (design your own bird game)
Exploring Uranus (mining game that we may not do as being a bit too edgy on the title - mentioned at the chat this week, and I'm farily certain we'll withhold it for now)
In Dead Ernest (bugs and microbes fighting over a corpse)
Bum Rap (escaping from prison board game).

...I may just post the entire development saga (AFTER protoype and playtest) so that folks have a better understanding of the details mentioned here. I don't want to bog our designers here down in the mechanics of production... but I do want to strees two points that I feel should reside at the core of any 'commercial' design... or design that hopes to BE commercial...
1) Marketing gets designed into the game... its should never be that which follows design.
2) Practicality is a huge issue if you want anything to see print, even at the level of a Mayfair or a Hasbro. (I've had a few rejected by Mayfair, and rightly so, for practicality reasons).

...Lets hope Darke gets the foldover download up without difficulties (Darkehorse... Hotseat alert :-)
XXOOCC

Anonymous
New Contest?

...one last comment. I've gotten LOTS of thank yous... and I appreciate it, but its unnecessary. Yes, I want to take the time to ensure that everyone understands the process, at least the process WE use here at ICGD... but we'll get something out of this too... and that also is how the system ought to work - everybody wins.

So thanks to all of you that plan to participate as well.

All entries will receive a crtique, as before, no simply you lose, he wins, and feedback or criticism on the critiques is NOT to be considered bad form either.

Now... if I can just get a bit more caught up :-)...

XXOOCC

btw, the LA RPG adventure test we're doing in the 'extra' chat room is nearing its end, and the game is already through layout and at the 'continuity check' phase of production... so that one is just about off of my desk. :-)

FastLearner
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Joined: 12/31/1969
New Contest?

When you say

Quote:
Game Boards printed (one color) on card stock can be as large as 11X15 inches.

I don't quite follow... how does that get folded down to fit in the bag? Maybe an 8.5x15 that folds 3 ways... ?

-- Matthew

Anonymous
New Contest?

It gets printed on an 11X 17 and then folded twice... 11X15 is, however, our largest single image that we can shoot on the printer.

FastLearner
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Joined: 12/31/1969
New Contest?

Cardstock quarter-folded doesn't really work though, does it? Or am I missing something (which is likely)?

I'd like to suggest that the official contest name have either "Micro Game" or "Microgame" in the title, so people even just hearing about the contest will instantly get a sense of whether it's for them or not, and it will be differentiated from our last contest (and our next one).

It's a great idea, btw, and very cool.

-- Matthew

phpbbadmin
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Joined: 04/23/2013
Fold Over sample

Ok the file over sample can be found here: Fold Over Sample

The fold over is a neat concept, and could add a lot of of flavor to the game. Particularly if used to represent 'upright objects' like people, monsters, etc. The game wizwar uses the same technique with t-stands, although it uses heavy chits instead of fold overs.

CC,

As far as color goes, you say only one color. I assume this precludes greyscale? I noticed Gods of Denial was greyscale (folks, the fold over sample above is from the ICGD game Gods of Denial, which I don't think ever made it to production). Just clarifying, as it would be nice to produce a greyscale game as it is infinitely better than a simple black & white game.

-Darke

FastLearner
Offline
Joined: 12/31/1969
New Contest?

And if gray is cool, what linescreen can you hold?

-- Matthew

Anonymous
New Contest?

OK... answer time again :-).

Cardstock folds twice fine... I think hpox has a copy of Lemmings In Space! which has just that type of double-folded cardstock, and its our heaviest 110#.... I think you're confusing chipboard and cardstock... Cardstock is still flexible, chipboard absolutely is not. Our press will not run chipboard.

Cardstock can be folded twice... but not more than that.

On the foldovers.... we have six games in print that use them, and they do work pretty well.

Greyscale IS possible... with a couple of provisos..

Our printer is an offset duplicator. The dot gain is present without being severe, and it can print up to 450 DPI... although beyond 300 is wasted because of the dot gain. It will also tend to darken greyscale images about 20% (dot gain again). ... So just lighten your images a bit, and when the print, they'll come out fairly accurately to your original vision.

You CAN NOT put ink within a half inch of the edge of the page... so no bleeds... this will cause the printed surface to stick to the drum in the printer. Bleeds can be accomplished withsmaller sizes as we can print and then 'trim to bleed'

I will certainly call the contest the Inner City Games Designs Microgame contest...

BTW... I entered the design prototype stage on a new microgame this week... title to be determined, working title, "The Stripey Hole". Its a prison-break-escape game, and I will use it as an example here once the prototype is worked up (probably Monday). I will put it up as a different topic.

Hope that covers the rather pertinent questions asked. :-)

Scurra
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New Contest?

XXOOCC wrote:
We're not space-themed... but those are the parts we have in stock, and so I can guarantee their availability.

I started working on a design without any spaceships of any description in it, and after roughing out a ruleset realised that I could completely retheme it to give it a space setting. So I did. :) (and the board is more fun now too.)

I must admit that the challenge of keeping the component count down is a fascinating exercise. It's good to do that anyway, but if you can't even rely on something as basic as counters, you have to tread pretty carefully.

jwarrend
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New Contest?

XXOOCC wrote:

...and You could score hugely on practicality by making the target game: just a target on white paper... and players drop coins on it to score... but you'd get a playability of zero, abnd a marketing score of zero. AND... should two people design an identical game, with identical marketing capability aesthetically... but one is $0.02 cheaper to produce... that person deserves to win. So no, the practicality issue is not superflous... far from it.

If it was simply "all other things being equal, the cheaper to produce game would win", that would be one thing, but your scoring system as it stands says that "practicality" is equally important as gameplay and marketability. The problem I have with this is that the prices of components are already specified, thus, a game that would cost $1.66 ($10/6) should get 0 points for practicality because it is the "most impractical" design possible under the current rules. But my point is that a game that costs $1.66 is practical for you to make (by your current standards), thus making a full third of the contest about cutting it even closer to the bone seems like you've over-specified the problem. As I see it, you either remove the cost limit on the components or relax the percentage of the score that practicality contributes; otherwise, there doesn't seem to be very much incentive to try very hard to make a fantastic game; just making a ho-hum game that's super cheap to produce is just as good...

-Jeff

IngredientX
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New Contest?

For those of us who are artistically challenged...

I understand that in any contest, presentation counts; and prototypes that are aesthetically pleasing will always have an advantage over prototypes that are purely functional (i.e. text-only, no art, or just some colored icons).

However, in this contest, it seems to count for a little more, because a game that has most of its artwork prepared will be cheaper and easier to develop than a "diamond in the rough."

So Chris...

First, I see that "Practicality" is 1/3 of an entrant's final score.

- About how much of that will be determined by the submitted design's graphics and layout?

- Are you looking to have most of the visual work done by the game designer, or do you have some development time/costs set aside for graphic work?

- How much of the graphics and layout do you expect to be complete in a submitted entry?

My second set of questions assumes that prototypes that aren't completely "set" in terms of graphics and layout will be at a significant and quantifiable disadvantage (more than the average contest) to prototypes whose graphics are already realized and laid out...

- Are there any people out there willing to help "develop" the visuals to someone's entry? Note that I don't know if I'm entering the contest yet... but I'm sure there'll be someone else out there who might need graphic design help.

- Does anyone have suggestions for free and/or cheap clipart for those of us who can't draw? (Heck, that could be a completely different thread, in the "Production" forum...)

Overall, this seems like a great contest. I hope I can whip something together in time...

Anonymous
New Contest?

...ok... let me also state that I think we're narrowing practicality to mean 'cost'... which is NOT the case... part of practicality is cost. Whats the rest?

If you design a game tha has foldovers, and you cram 100 of them onto a sheet so that only ants can move the pieces, well.. thats not practical either. Neither is a game that requires unique display conditions at a store, or any other of a thousand myriad niche problems that can occur if a designer does not take practical concerns into account.

Part of the exercise here is to design games that CAN actually be produced. Practicality is an extremely strong component of that mix.

I have seen games with ZERO playability, great market angles (marketing) and practicality built into them that have sold far more than they deserved to.. and I have seen great games that take no consideration of practicality languish in the design cabinet, never even seeing print. I have seen fantastic and practical games that have no built-in marketing relegated to the, "No, it sounds pretty cool but I've never heard of it." bin.

I'm planning on leaving the scoring % as-is... although please rest assured that practicality is more than just cost vs. price.

Onward...

<>

Thats a good point... although I do plan on doing 'development' with the designer AFTER the contest... so if you can't find 'just the right art bit', don't sweat it. I will say that the feel of a game can be influenced by its presentation, however... but also that the gang here at ICGD have been at this for quite a while... and we're a bit more jaded towards presentation aspects than joe-average-gamer... so it will affect our review of any game less, although it would be inaccurate to say, "not at all."

<>
A little... although truly thats more of a marketing issue. IF a designer sees an extremely 'grabby' way to present their design (commercially speaking) that would bump the marketing score for the game... but in those cases, the idea is more important than the art. I'd even put a note in if you're unsatisfied with what you have for your own prototype:
"One of those 'squirrel with a bazooka' pictures would be great here but I couldn't find one" is a better idea than a stick figure... because I will at least know that you know what you want even if you simply can't find it. Finding the squirrel with the bazooka can be done on this end... although if we wind up paying for it, it would become a development issue with the designer, and might cost you a point or two on practicality if there was no other way to engender the same marketing effect. (But only a point or two).

<< Are you looking to have most of the visual work done by the game designer, or do you have some development time/costs set aside for graphic work? >>
development time, yes, costs, only minimally.. but fear not, I am a gaming 'jack of all trades'.. and know various methods for getting it done cheaply. Doing the 'prep for market' work is something I do expect to have happen AFTER the contest.. with discussions between our outfit and the designer posted here, so that all can see how one of these things comes together, at least at our shop. I'm also hoping that some commentary will help me to expand my horizons as we proceed in that fashion, and maybe learn a thing or two that improves the way we do things here.

<<- How much of the graphics and layout do you expect to be complete in a submitted entry? >>

You need to prepare a 'working prototype' just as you would for a submission to a real games company... totally finished is not necessary, but you want to be sure that you get your ideas across.

<>

That would be a misconception. Believe me, everything I have EVER designed gets a complete overhaul once the gang tells me its sellable... there may be a minor advantage, but not major.... quantified? say about 2-3%...

<<- Does anyone have suggestions for free and/or cheap clipart for those of us who can't draw? (Heck, that could be a completely different thread, in the "Production" forum...) >>
I use www.100000freecliparts.com :-)

I also use Dover clip, and Photoshop Deluxe to 'morph images' into what I need them to be.

...and I'm a big Dwarf fan too... here's hoping this contest gives you a double-Polaroid :-).

XXOOCC

IngredientX
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New Contest?

XXOOCC wrote:

Thats a good point... although I do plan on doing 'development' with the designer AFTER the contest... so if you can't find 'just the right art bit', don't sweat it. I will say that the feel of a game can be influenced by its presentation, however... but also that the gang here at ICGD have been at this for quite a while... and we're a bit more jaded towards presentation aspects than joe-average-gamer... so it will affect our review of any game less, although it would be inaccurate to say, "not at all."

This is still very heartening. I hope to get something in! :)

Quote:

<<- Does anyone have suggestions for free and/or cheap clipart for those of us who can't draw? (Heck, that could be a completely different thread, in the "Production" forum...) >>

I use www.100000freecliparts.com :-)

Thanks for the link!

Quote:

...and I'm a big Dwarf fan too... here's hoping this contest gives you a double-Polaroid :-).

XXOOCC

ROTFL! I hope I don't like the contest THAT much... it would make Mr. Flibble very cross... :)

onew0rd
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New Contest?

As an aside. I can draw well. If anyone needs some specific things they need drawn, I can draw in pencil and scan. I am a busy guy, but if my interest is piqued and I get the time, I can help you out free of charge (unless you win...then you have to give me a copy or 2). Drop me a pm...

Brykovian
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New Contest?

Torrent wrote:
Can you describe or point to pictures of the two space-ship types?

I'm sorry if you've already posted an answer to this, CC ... but can you show us what your spaceships look like (kind of a personal question, I know ... ;))? :D

-Bryk

Anonymous
New Contest?

I don't have a scan handy... but they're small, about 1/2 an inch, maybe a bit bigger.

For those with copies... they are the old Buck Rogers ships.
...they're also the ones we use for Lemmings In Space!

I'll see if I can get a scan in a day or two.
XXOOCC

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