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Critique the Game Designs -- June 2005 Showdown

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Brykovian
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Use this thread to comment on the 11 entries (found here) submitted to the June Challenge ...

-Bryk

Scurra
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Critique the Game Designs -- June 2005 Showdown

Holy whatever!
The entries just keep on getting better and better.
I have no idea how I'm going to get that list down to just 3...!

Yogurt
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Critique the Game Designs -- June 2005 Showdown

Yep, I think my reign of terror is over! The competition is... inhuman. :)

I admit though, I'm having trouble spotting the "Pick up and Deliver" aspect of some entries. I'll have to go over them more closely.

I originally had a "Challenge Checklist" in my rules to make sure everyone got what I was doing, but it vanished in the face of the wordcount.

Yogurt

btaggart
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Critique the Game Designs -- June 2005 Showdown

I figure everyone interprets the rules in a different way, and ironclad adherence to my opinion is not a requirement.

I used a fairly liberal interpretation of some of those guidelines myself.

I'm going to vote for the games I think would be the most fun, as long as they aren't in glaring violation of the spec.

Perhaps in the future we can have a "pick three of these five mechanics" option, and we state at the top of our entry which mechanics we chose.

doho123
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Critique the Game Designs -- June 2005 Showdown

I figured that trying to cleanly fit in 4(!!!) mechanics was a bit tough to do to create a game in a week, while still keeping the rules down to 800 words; so I just and went and tried to come up with the best game possible while trying to meet the four goals (pick up and deliver/common piece/ tile laying/construct a team).

I supposed I could've "tacked on" some rules to fulfill all four requirements; but then I felt that those parts would've been tacked on! (Even though, now in hindsight, I think I've got a way to add the slighted mechanic without too many headaches).

And if I "dinged" for it, so be it. I'm more interested in trying to create a good solid game with the contest as a creative jumping point anyway than trying to blindly fill up requirement holes.

Nevertheless, there's some rather interesting choices to vote on....

Kreitler
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Critique the Game Designs -- June 2005 Showdown

yogurt wrote:
Yep, I think my reign of terror is over!

Hmm...I'm about 90% sure I know which one is yours, and I'm about 90% sure it's going to win. :)

As for the "pickup and deliver" problem, you're right. I think a lot of entrants (myself included) got so caught up in the "pick up" part that we forgot you need to drop your stuff off!

Ah, well...there's always July...

K.

seo
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Critique the Game Designs -- June 2005 Showdown

I'd rahter keep the current method of "you have to comply with ALL this onditions". Having to pick 3 out of 5 would on one hand add an extra challenge (deciding which three to select) while on the other destroy the enjoyable pressure of having to find a way to include the conditions into a coherent game.

I could simply comply with all 5, but that would feel odd.

I still haven't got the time to read the entries, but from the first glance, and based on the commments here, I guess it's going to be hard to decide.

Seo

seo
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Critique the Game Designs -- June 2005 Showdown

Kreitler wrote:
Hmm...I'm about 90% sure I know which one is yours, and I'm about 90% sure it's going to win. :)

I hope it's not the Pudding Corners one. I mean: the guy is called Yogurt, and his games are about cupcakes and pudding... I guess my talk with Bryk today about lunch and dessert left me obsessed with food. ;-)

Seo

Hamumu
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Critique the Game Designs -- June 2005 Showdown

I just want to drop by to give props to The Ataraxis Transcendence. I'm not gonna VOTE for it since it totally ignores every rule of the contest (well, other than theme), but definite thumbs up for the extreme surreality. And I think it would be fun too! I was getting some Donnie Darko vibes in there at one point. It's tempting to give it #1, but I feel that's unfair to the people who put in the effort to put together all those disparate mechanics as prescribed (and tweren't easy!).

It would be interesting to see a contest full of games that are about the whole UFO culture thing - a contest where this game would really belong. Maybe one game would be an inner conflict trying to convince yourself you really were abducted, another would be trying to make the most money off of UFO tourism or conventions, or maybe selling books. Another one about providing therapy to the 'victims'. There was a great episode of Penn & Teller's show that really showed me there's a lot of wackiness to be played off of in that culture (and Ataraxis fits RIGHT in).

Now to figure out which ones I should vote for!

sedjtroll
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Critique the Game Designs -- June 2005 Showdown

I noticed that 5 of the 11 entries include pictures (boards, cards, etc). I think it came up last month, isn't that a breach of the 800 rule limit (as a picture is worth 1000 words)?

I notice in the rules it says that linking to graphical examples is allowed, but is that an artifact from before the rule limit?

I'd like to suggest that the entries be not only 800 words, but also be text only next time.

- Seth

Kreitler
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Critique the Game Designs -- June 2005 Showdown

sedjtroll wrote:
I notice in the rules it says that linking to graphical examples is allowed, but is that an artifact from before the rule limit?

I'd like to suggest that the entries be not only 800 words, but also be text only next time.

- Seth

I thought we decided that diagrams were OK? I think pictures allow entrants to explore graphically simple but verbally complex mechanics, which is good.

However, I think at least one of this month's entries is excessive.

What if we made pictures worth 50 or 100 words?

K.

seo
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Critique the Game Designs -- June 2005 Showdown

I like the idea of giving pictures a word count equivalency. That would somehow even the field among graphically "cahllenged" but language "gifted" contestants and those with opposite strenghts and weaknesses. I guess those who are both language and graphically chalenged are used to suffer. ;-)

As for next month challenge to be pictureless, I think it might work with some games, but punish too much others. I like the cost per picture idea better. But would that mean a wordless, 8 picture entry is ok? ;-P

Seo

Pt314
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Critique the Game Designs -- June 2005 Showdown

Lots of games, a lot of them look really neat as well.

I think its funny how many of them have cows in them. They are just as popular as the aliens. It probably had something to do with cow mutalation being mentioned as an example for a theme.

Pt314
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Critique the Game Designs -- June 2005 Showdown

seo wrote:

As for next month challenge to be pictureless, I think it might work with some games, but punish too much others. I like the cost per picture idea better. But would that mean a wordless, 8 picture entry is ok? ;-P

Seo

Hmm, a contest with only pictures would be interesting.

Yogurt
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Critique the Game Designs -- June 2005 Showdown

I'm pretty sure pictures were given the okay, Seth. I don't mind them myself.

However, I do like the idea of having each picture count as a small block of words.

Yogurt

Hamumu
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Critique the Game Designs -- June 2005 Showdown

I don't mind pictures counting for a certain amount of words, but I would really mind if they were disallowed. They turn darkness into light for understanding concepts. I mean, can you imagine The Day The Earth Ran Screaming being explained only in words? But yet, with pictures, it's quite intuitive (at least the board layout and android movement is).

Destroy All Humans gives a great example - the picture there makes very clear what is otherwise very confusing (to me!).

Unless the pictures contain a lot of words themselves, they don't really add anything to the 'word count' inside the reader's head. That is, they don't make the reader take longer to digest the entry (hey... reader... digest!).

I think other than the classic art skills discrepancy issue, there's no reason to put any sort of limit on images (except bandwidth, page width, and actual word count on the image). They only make entries quicker and easier to read, in my experience. My mind may change starting this Saturday when I am demoted to dial-up, however.

I think that the 800 word limit is pretty high though. Almost every entry again came out as a detailed rulebook. I kinda like that myself (more as a contestant than as a judge though...), but if the intent is to just get the idea across, then a way lower limit would be more apropos. Maybe try out a teeny limit next month? Like 250 or so. I'd probably end up writing the whole ruleset myself, then trying to edit a blurb out of it.

sedjtroll
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Critique the Game Designs -- June 2005 Showdown

Hamumu wrote:

Unless the pictures contain a lot of words themselves, they don't really add anything to the 'word count' inside the reader's head.

What part of "A picture is worth a thousand words" do you not understand?

Quote:
That is, they don't make the reader take longer to digest the entry

That's not the point. The point is that if one person uses 750 words and no pictures, and another uses 500 words and 3 pictures, the second person can convey a lot more information. By rough estimate (according to that addage), over 4 times as much information. That's sorta like cheating, don't you think?

If we have a word limit, we should disallow pictures.

Quote:
I think that the 800 word limit is pretty high though. Almost every entry again came out as a detailed rulebook.

I agree with you here. If it's a "Showdown" and not a design contest, then we shouldn't be looking at rulebooks. This is clearly a different animal than the original 5-minute showdowns, which unfortunately loses something I think in order to make it more accessible.

It's still fun... but I have heard other people say as well that they've already got lots of ideas to work on, they don't want more fleshed out ideas fighting for their attention, so they don't participate.

- Seth

Yogurt
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Critique the Game Designs -- June 2005 Showdown

sedjtroll wrote:
they don't want more fleshed out ideas fighting for their attention, so they don't participate.

I'm the other way. I'd never design a thing without these challenges.

What would the 5-minute response to this UFO challenge be then? Anyone willing to give it a crack?

I never saw the old showdowns, so I don't understand why people love them so. I'm surprised it worked, but obviously it did.

I think Brykovian has already hashed out the length question for his competition, but if people want a different type of contest, why not post one yourselves and see what happens?

Yogurt

Challengers
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Critique the Game Designs -- June 2005 Showdown

This design showdown has got to be the most enjoyable bang for my surfing buck! I have read every entry and each one is a game I would play!
I do hope the pictures are allowed to stay. For those entries that used them, they added a nice touch to the presentation.

Thinking Out Loud Dept.
What is the protocol for critiquing entries while voting is open? Last month, we had two pages of general comments before

ShiftyPickles wrote:
Is it just me or is no one actually posting any notes on the entries?

However, voting had not ended before that question was asked.
There is a lot of interesting commentary after the voting ended.
I, for one, keep notes on the entries so that I can comment at the end of voting.

Whaddya say?

Mitch

Kreitler
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Critique the Game Designs -- June 2005 Showdown

Challengers wrote:

What is the protocol for critiquing entries while voting is open?
...
However, voting had not ended before that question was asked.
There is a lot of interesting commentary after the voting ended.
I, for one, keep notes on the entries so that I can comment at the end of voting.

I don't know that there's an official protocol, but it seems we all wait until after. I do this so as not to bias others' judgements by pointing out strengths or flaws they might have missed.

K.

seo
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Critique the Game Designs -- June 2005 Showdown

Pt314 wrote:
Hmm, a contest with only pictures would be interesting.
Yeah, Scurra and Seth are quietly lobbying for it. ;-)

Seo

Nando
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Critique the Game Designs -- June 2005 Showdown

Challengers wrote:
What is the protocol for critiquing entries while voting is open?

I'm not suggesting the submitters make clarifications, and I'm not advocating the full reviews that some have given post-vote for the gamut. But if someone were to see something particularly clever or particularly troublesome, that might be nice to share. I'd especially be interested in potential gaping holes in the rules that I might not see as a newbie designer. I know we try to build people up here, but we also try to learn. Unfortunately (or not), a lot of learning is a result of mistakes.

For instance, I really wanted to give a vote to Doppleganger, but I just couldn't see how pick-up/deliver or team building were accomplished. (If it's in there, it must be really clever. :P ) If someone could convince me, I'd probably change my vote. That's just an example and perhaps a bad one, but you get the idea.

sedjtroll
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Critique the Game Designs -- June 2005 Showdown

yogurt wrote:
What would the 5-minute response to this UFO challenge be then? Anyone willing to give it a crack?

It's kinda too late for that... we've been thinking about it all week! The idea isn't to describe my well thought out entry to you in 5 minutes... the idea is to come up with a clever game which meets the criteria, and come up with it 'on the fly.'

Quote:
I never saw the old showdowns, so I don't understand why people love them so. I'm surprised it worked, but obviously it did.

It was a different game than this one is. They are both good fun, my comment was that these week long showdowns are too short for a game design contest and too long for the on-the-fly ideas. It's still something fun to think about.

Quote:
I think Brykovian has already hashed out the length question for his competition

I fully understand why these showdowns are formatted the way they are. Believe me, I think Bryk is doing a great job, and it's a very worthwhile endeaver! It's just not the real 'Game Design Showdown' for those of us who did them.

- Seth

Yogurt
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Critique the Game Designs -- June 2005 Showdown

sedjtroll wrote:
It's kinda too late for that... we've been thinking about it all week!

What I meant was, what would a brief answer to the UFO challenge look like?

My worry is that the entries would be too vague.

I'd be just as interested in seeing what the 250 word version of Shadows of Camelot or Settlers of Catan might be, since that word limit was suggested too. I may try myself in a new thread.

If there are any transcripts of the old showdown around, I'd like to take a peek.

Yogurt

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Critique the Game Designs -- June 2005 Showdown

Hamumu wrote:

I think other than the classic art skills discrepancy issue, there's no reason to put any sort of limit on images (except bandwidth, page width, and actual word count on the image). They only make entries quicker and easier to read, in my experience. My mind may change starting this Saturday when I am demoted to dial-up, however.

I think that the 800 word limit is pretty high though. Almost every entry again came out as a detailed rulebook. I kinda like that myself (more as a contestant than as a judge though...), but if the intent is to just get the idea across, then a way lower limit would be more apropos. Maybe try out a teeny limit next month? Like 250 or so. I'd probably end up writing the whole ruleset myself, then trying to edit a blurb out of it.

I just got demoted to dial-up when we moved. The images come just as quickly as the rest of the page, although "quickly" is relative.

I think the arguments for and against the various elements of the showdown presuppose the seriousness of the judging process. From the posts I've read over the past three months, none of us is going over the entries with a fine-toothed comb. I look at the limitations as more of a restraint on over-enthusiastic submission lengths.

Mitch

Brykovian
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Critique the Game Designs -- June 2005 Showdown

You folks make me smile. :-D

My viewpoint, for what it's worth, on the technical/administrative issues being discussed ...

  • It's *not* the same type of contest as the original ... and it's not trying to be. It simply was inspired by the original. Please give it a rest. Perhaps one of the other admins could attempt to run one of the original, classic, in-chat showdowns during one of the Thursday Brown Bag sessions -- we seem to have run out of hosts/topics lately.
  • I think 800 words still feels really good to me. I think the entries would necessarily have to lose something in order for a 500 word limit to work. I don't see why we'd want that.
  • Images should be allowed, at least on the ones that I administer ... I think they add a lot. I don't believe it's "cheating" -- I think it's good communication. Having a "picture is worth 80 words, plus each word that is included in the picture" type calculation rule seems a bit on the overkill side to me for such an easy-going, low-stakes, *monthly* contest.
  • I realize that having the thing setup the way it is now will stop some people from participating. If I change the rules to accomodate those folks, some other folks would not be able or willing to participate. I'm aiming more for entertainment value than an all-inclusive, everybody-is-happy, YMCA type program. By my own calculations, we've been getting some good entertainment.
  • Bottom line: I like the number and (especially) the quality of entries we've been getting.
Cheers,
-Bryk

[/]
Nando
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Critique the Game Designs -- June 2005 Showdown

Nando wrote:
For instance, I really wanted to give a vote to Doppleganger, but I just couldn't see how pick-up/deliver or team building were accomplished.

OK. Duh. Found team building:

Doppleganger Author wrote:
Each player draws 12 Supply cards, and discard 6 at the start of the game.

FastLearner
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Critique the Game Designs -- June 2005 Showdown

Me, I think the pictures are awesome, and think any number of them should be allowed.

And to add to it all, when I get back from PowWow, mid-July, I'm going to start running the regular GDSes, probably one a month. Definitely one in August, hopefully one in July.

Then y'all can see how it's done old skool. Me, I think of them as nearly completely different entities, and don't see why the rules of one would restrict the rules of the other.

And for the new skoolers, you'd be surprised how creative you can be in 5-10 minutes.

Oh, and lastly, these entries (every month) are simply outstanding, really amazing stuff. I've loved every game, keep it up, y'all!

-- Matthew

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Critique the Game Designs -- June 2005 Showdown

I would like to suggest that for the next showdown, people list the mechanics requirements at the top/bottom of their submission, and say what bit of the game they think satisfies it. For a lot of the games submitted, I found it hard to work out how they thought the restrictions had been satisfied.

doho123
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Critique the Game Designs -- June 2005 Showdown

I find the whole "pictures yes/no" argument somewhat pointless; there are no prizes given away, so it's more of an exhibition than a contest. And the 800 word limit was imposed not because the contest was to make a game in 800 words or less, but just to make it easier to digest the concepts; which is really what the REAL goal should be.

I guess my feeling is that the "rules" shouldn't meant as a hard core defining point, but as a general guideline. It's supposed to be a friendly contest, not a hard lined test. If someone's concept is better depicted using a picture, that's fine, and they shouldn't be dinged for it just the same as if someone needs to write 827 words for their idea. Discussion over the technical aspects of the rules of the contest seems like a waste of time, when in fact, what everyone should be doing is discussing the game concepts and trying to make them better games, which should be the ultimate goal.

Brykovian
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Critique the Game Designs -- June 2005 Showdown

doho123 wrote:
I find the whole "pictures yes/no" argument somewhat pointless; there are no prizes given away, so it's more of an exhibition than a contest. And the 800 word limit was imposed not because the contest was to make a game in 800 words or less, but just to make it easier to digest the concepts; which is really what the REAL goal should be.

I guess my feeling is that the "rules" shouldn't meant as a hard core defining point, but as a general guideline. It's supposed to be a friendly contest, not a hard lined test. If someone's concept is better depicted using a picture, that's fine, and they shouldn't be dinged for it just the same as if someone needs to write 827 words for their idea. Discussion over the technical aspects of the rules of the contest seems like a waste of time, when in fact, what everyone should be doing is discussing the game concepts and trying to make them better games, which should be the ultimate goal.

Did I write that? :-)

Can't be ... I'm not that articulate. But those are the same thoughts that bounce 'round in my head!

-Bryk

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