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"abstract strategy" combat concept

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Essence
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Joined: 12/31/1969

The concept: a 100% deterministic game of imperfect information designed to emulate a medieval-Japanese dirt-road brawl.

The mechanics: Every player chooses a set of seven cards to be his 'actions' before the game starts. These are things like "iaijutsu strike" and "grapple". The 'actions' sit face-up in front of the player, so all of the other players know exactly what each other are capable of. Each action card has a speed listed on it; the player with the highest total of card speeds goes first.

Each player is assigned a number, then each player recieves two sets of color cards (ROYGBIV) which are slightly larger than the action cards and one set of number cards. One set of color cards goes beneath the action cards, essentially assigning each action card a color. The other set of color cards and the set of number cards becomes the player's 'hand'.

Each round, each player puts one color card and one number card face down in front of him. All player simultaneously flip over their cards. The color/number combination indicates what action the player is taking and which player that action is directed at. All actions are resolved simultaneously. Damage is kept track of as counters given; when a particular player reaches 10 counters, he is out of the game.

Depending on the types of actions, this game could easily incorporate elements of bluffing, alliance-making, and intense negotiation. Actions I would like to see:

* A Healing action that removed 4 or so counters from another person but only 2 from the character performing it.
* An Aikido action that directed an incoming non-grapple attack to a different character.
* A Set Up action that did no damage, but increased the damage your next blow dealt if it was to the same foe that you Set Up.
* A Karmic Blow action that dealt more damage if the foe also attacked you in the same round.

Some questions:

*How large should the total set of actions available to choose from be? I'd like to at least include enough actions to represent Samurai, Karateka, Sohei, and Judoka with their own more-or-less unique set of seven actions, and I'd like to be able to support up to six players.

*Given that the largest attack in the game would probably be 5 points of damage and the average would be 3, is 10 counters enough? Would it make the game too short for all of the setup? How long should a game like this take to play? (I've had games of Lunch Money that lasted for 30 minutes, but they weren't that fun by the end.)

*Given that each player only gets to choose 7 cards, how valuable should action chains be? (For example, if you had to take Action A in order to take Action B in order to take Action C, and the other players, of course, knew it was coming, how much Real Ultimate Power would Action C have to give in order to be worthwhile?)

*So far, there's no bookkeeping in this game once the seven actions are chosen besides the simple acquisition of counters and keeping track of whether or not your last action was a Set Up-style action. Is it wise to attempt to add any layers of bookkeeping past this? Would it be worth the added hassle to have an action, for example, that healed you of a number of counters equal to the number of times you have previously performed the action?

*Similarly, would it be 'cool' enough to be worth the hassle of attempting to balance some kind of "role" (such as "If you choose to play a Samurai, you choose one less Maneuver card, but you deal one additional damage each time you use a Weapon attack") that the players got to choose before selecting their maneuver cards?

Hedge-o-Matic
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Joined: 07/30/2008
"abstract strategy" combat concept

I'd suggest going for bare-bones for now, making sure the core system works. Dvelop a basic hand of seven cards, and playtest with someone using the exact same hand. This will tke out all variable except strategy and tactics, and allow you to develop the usefulness of each card. When this works, and is playable and fun, add more cards and chrome.

I'd recommend basing your cards on the traditonal bugei of the samurai. Such things as Karate and Judo have no place in mideval Japan. You'd be looking for Jujitsu and Atemi-waza, and so on. Gamers might not care very much, but it would irk people who study the Japanese martial arts.

I'd recommend Oscar Ratti's book "Secrets of the Samurai", if you're interested in historical fact.

Essence
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Joined: 12/31/1969
"abstract strategy" combat concept

As a student of Ninjitsu and Japanese history, I am inclined to agree. As a fan of D&D-style Oriental Adventures and Legend of the Five Rings, I'm inclined to throw accuracy to the wind and let in all of the fun flavor stuff.

I'll definitely start with the seven basic "katana duel" cards, though, and see if I can create depth out of those simple choices.

Right now, I'm thinking:

Strike [attack]: Deal 3 damage to selected foe.

Riposte [defense]: If selected foe attacks you this turn, his attack deals no damage and you deal 2 damage to him or her.

Dodge [defense]: You take 2 less damage from all sources this turn. If a foe selects you with a Riposte card this turn, you may deal one damage to him or her. (Note that since this is not an attack, the Riposte does not negate this damage.)

Focus [action]: If you damage selected foe next turn, add 4 to the damage dealt. If the foe selects you with a Riposte card this turn, he may not select you with a Riposte card next turn.

Block [defense]: If the selected foe damages you this turn or next turn, you take 6 less damage from his or her attacks. Any other player's attacks that damage you during this time do an additional point of damage.

Lunge [attack]: Deal 6 damage to selected foe. If that foe damages you this turn, he deals an additional 3 damage to you.

Defensive Cut [attack]: Deal 1 damage to selected foe. If that foe damages you this turn, he deals 2 less damage to you. If any other foe damages you this turn, he or she deals 1 less damage to you.

The only thing I'm worried about is the game being solvable at the two-player level, but I can't find a way to do it yet. Anyone spot a sequence of plays that will make you unbeatable against a single opponent?

Hedge-o-Matic
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Joined: 07/30/2008
"abstract strategy" combat concept

Since your game is simultaneous, it can't be solvable, since any action could be followed by any other, or countered by any other. The decision tree never narrows.

So far, the basics look good.

Essence
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Joined: 12/31/1969
"abstract strategy" combat concept

Not entirely true: if not for the clauses about Riposte in the other actions, two-player action would rapidly collapse into a waiting game of both players playing Riposte endlessly, waiting for the other to get bored and give up.

I think I've gotten around that, though. :)

Infernal
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Joined: 12/31/1969
"abstract strategy" combat concept

I would choose an odd number of actions that a player can do (it is easier to balance).

Draw a diagram that lists each action (put each in a circle or something), and draw a line to each other action. Use an arrow to indicate weather this action does more damage than if the opponent takes the target action (include healing effects).

If you find that 1 or more actions are dominated or near dominated (more in coming than out going arrows) then think about how you could modify this action to make it less dominated.

This is a quick method of achieveing a rough balance. You will need to do more (play testing) to actualy get the balance that you require.

Hope this helps.

erael
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Joined: 12/31/1969
"abstract strategy" combat concept

I think it works as is. The 3 different attacks are likely to have one that "dominates" the others at any given life total, but the interplay of riposte, dodge, block, and focus with the attacks is robust.

Essence
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Joined: 12/31/1969
Revision

double post

Essence
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Joined: 12/31/1969
Revision

I've done some solo playtesting and decided that 7 cards wasn't symmetrical enough for me. So, I upped it to nine: three attacks, three defenses, and three actions.

Strike [attack]: Deal 3 damage to target player.

Lunge [attack]: Deal 5 damage to target player. If that player attacks you this turn, his attack deals an additional 3 damage.

Sweep [attack]: Deal 1 damage to all players. If only one other player remains, this attack ignores the effect of [defense] cards the player uses this turn.

Riposte [defense]: If target player attacks you this turn, his attack deals no damage and Riposte deals 3 damage to him or her.

Dodge [defense]: Target player’s attack does no damage to you this turn, and all other player’s attacks do 2 less damage to you this turn. Next turn, target player’s attack does 2 less damage to you.

Block [defense]: All player’s attacks deal 2 less damage to you this turn. Target player takes 1 point of damage if he attacks you this turn.

Focus [action]: If you deal any damage to target foe next turn, that damage is increased by 5 points (though the source of the damage does not change). Also, if target foe targets you with a Riposte card this turn, that player cannot target you with a Riposte card next turn.

Grapple [action]: All other players ignore the effect of any [defense] cards target player uses this turn. If target player targets you with any [action] or [defense] cards this turn, he takes 1 point of damage. If target player targets you with an [attack] card this turn, you take 2 additional points of damage from that [attack].

Ready [action]: If target foe uses an [action] this turn, he takes 5 points of damage. If target foe targets any other player with an [attack] this turn, he takes 1 points of damage.

The balance-by-arrows method turned out to be way overcomplicated what with the contingent effects of many of the cards. Then again, I'm not concerned about the balance of individual cards; only about the possibility of one side achieving a "lock" by playing the correct sequence of cards.

Qundar
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Joined: 12/31/1969
"abstract strategy" combat concept

Hi,

From what I read in this thread here, this game sounds like a pretty fun one. No bookeeping makes it go by fast, and if it works, it'd be real fun too. I like the idea of being able to know exactly what your opponents can do, though they too know your capabilities. And using the number and color cards like that works pretty well too. At first I was confused, cause I thought you'd be able to use each action card only once per game, but I figured out I was wrong. Anyway, keep working at it. Sounds quite fun. I've always been interested in the Samurai and the like. Need to read about them more.

Lvie long and prosper, Qundar out.

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