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ccg combat system, looking for ideas

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CIDIC
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I'm looking for ideas and inspiration for a ccg combat system. I want something other than the staple attack and defence stats, if the attack exceeds the def than that unit is destoryed. i've been trying to come up with ideas, but they all seem to end up back with the attack and defence stats. looking for any inspiration and ideas. thanks in advance.

OutsideLime
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ccg combat system, looking for ideas

What sort of combat are you dealing with? From your past posts I assume you'r dealing with WWII-type modern warfare. At what level? Man-to-man, or larger scale? Is there a wide variety of attack types?
~Josh

CIDIC
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ccg combat system, looking for ideas

probably, fantasy/medival. but i haven't really seen a card game that has any mechanics to reflect the style combat used.

Essence
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ccg combat system, looking for ideas

Well, then, let's invent one.

Totally off of the cuff:

Each card representing a unit has four states it could be in:
Healthy = face up, right-side up.
Injured = face up, sideways.
Severely Injured = face up, upside down.
Unconscious = face down.
(Dead = off of the playing field).

Now, to simulate the fantasy/medieval style of fighting, you need to get a bit more specific, because you are going to need to decide how many special conditions exist and what effects they have on combat.

For example, you might decide the following attack types exist:

Melee
Ranged
Flesh
Wood
Stone
Fire
Poison/Disease
Metal
Magical
Mighty
Fast
Accurate

And that each attack has three such descriptors. For example, an elephant's gore/trample could be a Melee/Flesh/Mighty, while a faerie's darting magical curses might be Ranged/Magical/Fast and an assassin's dagger might be Melee/Metal/Accurate.

Some creatures, of course, might be Vulnerable, Resistant, or Immune to specific types of attacks. Beyond that, however, you need to decide on some states that have special effects. For example:

Flying - immune to Melee attacks unless the attacker also has Flying.
Vampiric - each successful attack improves the unit's health by one step.
etc.

You decide how complex you want that list to be.

The core mechanic would work like this:
Whenever two units face each other, each rolls 1d6. On a 4-6, the other unit moves one step along the injury ladder above.
Each step below Healthy inflicts a -1 on your roll.
If the opposing unit is Vulnerable to your attack, you gain a +1 to your roll.
If the opposing unit is Resistant to your attack, you take a -1 to your roll.
If the opposing unit it Immune to your attack, you take a -10 to your roll.

What do you think? There's no attack/defense stat, only a series of modifiers to a simple roll that can make various units range from lethal to useless against a particular unit.

Just a thought.

cedrick
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Joined: 12/31/1969
Let the theme be your guide

Designing a ruleset always comes down to the same question: what are you trying to model? Ask yourself what sort of differentiation you want to make between various types of monsters or characters. Decide what trade-offs you want the player to make when deploying them. Do you want to emphasize speed versus strength? Is range an important factor in the battles in your game world? Is armor important? Are you dealing with masses of troops or individuals?

Once you answer these questions, it should become clear what your stats will look like. Depending on how detailed you want to get, you can have stats for movement, range, damage, accuracy, armor, hits, magic, etc. but simple systems always play more quickly. M:tG's Power/Toughness system works well because it's simple and allows a fair range of combinations. Combined with special effects on the cards, they've been churning out interesting creatures for more than a decade.

NetWolf
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ccg combat system, looking for ideas

I would start by making a list of the styles of combat you want to have reflected in the game. From here, work out basic mechanics for each and see what works and what doesn't. What type is repetative, which is useless, which simply doesn't fit the theme? Remove what doesn't work, or tweak it so it does. Here's my list to start the ball rolling:

1) Melee
2) Archery
3) Mounted Combat
4) Pikemen

Since it's fantasy you would probably want these:

5) Sorcery
6) Clerical

To continue with the general theme of most medieval fantasy you would probably want some variants such as these:

7) Rogue
8) Diplomatic

____________________

These, of course, are just basic archetypes used as descriptors for units. Each would have a series of stats which represent their strengths and weaknesses. I would have these archetypes on the 'individuals' and provide them with very basic stats. For example a Basic Archer would be provided with stats on Ranged Combat, Melee, and Defense. They have no need for magic, stealth, or diplomacy, though variants possibly would.
An Elven Archer would probably have stats for Ranged, Defense, and Stealth for example. I would limit the basic stats to around 3 per unit, allowing for customization with different armor, weapons, spells, artifacts, etc....
____________________________

As far as combat goes, you could probably limit it to three phases of health. Healthy (No damage), Immobile (Cannot move, but may still fight any who engage with them), and Dead (Removed from play).

digitalhop
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Joined: 12/31/1969
Accuracy System

My idea would involve playing a card from your hand that represents a type of attack (I recommend all cards in the set have a subsection that lists an attack type. This way the cards can also double as characters etc)

They could be types of sword strikes in the case of a Knight(not sure of the proper terms):

light strike (•) defensive
medium strike (••) balanced
heavy strike (•••) exposed

Each player has Sword tokens.

The •'s refer to a chart of accuracy. Your token would start on the outside of the chart and move towards the center for a direct hit (Equal to the number of •'s). Meanwhile your opponent plays cards that push your blade out of the Hit Zone. If ever the blades are in the same space on the Accuracy chart the attack is considered blocked.

ACCURACY CHART:

PLAYER 1 > MISS-MISS-INJURED-SEVERE-INJURED-MISS-MISS < Player 2

Some Maneuver cards used during combat:

Improved Dodge: Move opponent's attack 1 space.

Desperate Dodge: Move an opponent's token two spaces. That opponent may move one of your token's 1 space.

Players would lay face down a number of cards (maybe 3-5) that represent their planned attacks/maneuvers. Simultaneously players reveal one card of choice at a time. The players may then respond with any of their remaining face down cards (until all five cards are revealed or a player passes opting not to play any further cards)

The element of suprise and rapid attack would come as players reveal one at a time there attacks/maneuvers.

Here's an example of play:

Jason and John are battling, Knight vs Knight.

John is playing a Knight whose weapon of choice is a Heavy Mace (which does not allow john to play Light attacks/maneuvers). John chooses to play 2 Heavy Thrust attacks, one Desperate Dodge, and two Medium Slashes face down.

Jason's Knight is more agile and clever than John's but not as strong, allowing Jason to play an extra card face down but preventing him from using heavy attacks/maneuvers. Jason places face down three Medium Parrys, one Extended Slash, one Leaping Slash, and one Desperate Dodge.

ATTACK!

Players simultaneously choose and reveal their first cards, moving their swords from the outside of the accuracy chart towards the center.

John chooses a Heavy Thrust Attack(•••) Putting his sword token on the Injured Space.
Jason reveals an Extended Slash(•••, Your opponent may gain •) Putting Jason's attack also on an Injured Space but also allowing John to move his token to the Severe space.

Next the players look at their cards searching for a maneuver card to manipulate their current attacks or their opponent's.

John having the best position for his sword looks for a card to protect his knight from harm.

More to come....I think yo ucan see where I'm going with this....but bare with me...I'm brainstorming this on the spot so its rough.

(Also worried that this may be similiar to Highlander??? I can't remember how that game works...)

larienna
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ccg combat system, looking for ideas

Do you want to use a random (dices) or determinist combat resolution?

Do you want to make a card vs card battle system or a bunch of card vs a bunch of cards battle system.

- Of course, there is the classic like, in duel master, the strongest win and a tie destroy both. As an alternative there can be a change in the strength according to the situation ( like in yugioh )

- You can also give a series of special ability with increase the power of the unit with another series of anti-abilities that negate these bonus. Example : "Cavalry : str 3, charge 2". Make the cavalry at 5. If the opponent has some "pikeman : anti-charge", the "charge" bonus does not apply.

- If you are making a bunch of cards vs a bunch of cards, each side would totalise their damage dealth and the opposing player determine what creature dies. Now some abilities like "first strike" can make you deal damage first before starting combat. Or "flying" can make you select your target for the damage, or "fear" make sure these creatures will die last and cannot be targeted.

CIDIC
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ccg combat system, looking for ideas

several cards vs several cards, and i don't want dice involved.

TrekNoid
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ccg combat system, looking for ideas

CIDIC wrote:
several cards vs several cards, and i don't want dice involved.

Two ideas pop into mind:

The first is a souped-up RPS system.

Instead of Attack/Defense, You define simple 'A beats B', 'B beats C', 'C+D beats A', etc... Then assign card types.

For example, you're deploying a unit that uses a primary Fire attack, and I defend with a card that has Water as a major component... I defended your attack. If I don't have a viable defense (like water... ice... flame-retardant pajamas...), then I take damage.

That sort of thing...

The other idea is a sort of glorified chess-style system, where certain types of cards can attack and kill based on their position on a board. Bosworth is one of the better games I've seen of this style.

Yu-Gi-Oh uses this methodology at times. For example, the 'Needle Wall' trap card in Yu-Gi-Oh defines the monster fields as the numbers 1 through 5, and the card's special effect allows you to destroy a monster on one of the fields.

Trek

Sen
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Joined: 12/20/2010
ccg combat system, looking for ideas

are you going to keep track of things with chits for HP, or do fighters/creatures become fully healed after each encounter? For ease of management, might I suggest that (especially with a CCG) simple = better? Too many chips/chits/lifestones/etc. and you might as well make it a board game. Or a CCG with a board.

What scale of fighting are we talking about as well? Mano-a-mano? Squad? Army?

What other things will be occuring in the game that would make other types of stats useful?

Are you adverse to numbers in general or just the Attack / Defense stats that pervade the genre?

CIDIC
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ccg combat system, looking for ideas

i just want something different, i think i've developed somthing pretty unique, i'll let you know after some more development and testing.

OldScratch
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ccg combat system, looking for ideas

My favorite combat system from any game I've ever played was from Rage from White Wolf. The combat system was very simple and fun. Basically you had your combat deck with all sorts of attacks and other events, and a hand of about 5 cards.

When you entered combat, you'd draw your 5 cards, and then when both players were ready, they slapped down a card at the same time. It could be an attack or defense card or whatever, and both effects were applied. It worked good cause you didn't take turns attacking or defending. It also worked well with multiple combatants, cause you would just throw down cards at whatever opponent you wanted.

The cards were basically a power and damage rating, and extra rules for other effects. Power meant that a character had to have X amount of power to play that card, and the damage is how much was caused if the attack hit.

Other effects that were used were cards that allowed you to pick up more cards, equipment that allows you to use more than 1 card per attack, there were dodges and blocks, and a feint card, which allowed you to dodge an attack and play another card with it (you'd throw down two cards).

Just thought I'd throw this one out there cause it was a very intense combat system and it was very fun as well.

CIDIC
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ccg combat system, looking for ideas

thanks old scratch, while everyone has been helpful. you gave me what i was hoping for. I'm trying to find some sort of combat mechanics, just systems or different parts of systems that i could re-arange to make something new.

I'm also trying to make a system that gives you many different things for your cards to do, but i'm not really getting anywhere with that. i want the game to be more about what you do on the table rather than what you put in your deck and what you draw. and to do that you need to have tactical options for the cards you have in play, and i'm having alot of trouble figuring out what and how to do that. I can't seem to get past the whole "cards are in attack or defence position and do this defferently depending on which they are in".

NetWolf
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ccg combat system, looking for ideas

How about making it simple? Have the individual forces in each group have one of two possitions: Front Line or Flank. The arangement would be as such-

<br />
 ___   ___<br />
|   | |   |<br />
|   | |   | -Front Line<br />
 ---   ---<br />
 ___   ___<br />
|   | |   |<br />
|   | |   | -Flank<br />
 ---   ---<br />

Front line units are considered to be in Offensive mode, while the flank is Defensive. These units can be swapped at a fixed point in each player's turn (Either the begining or the end, depending on what would best suit your game).

A group of cards that are grouped together such as those above constitute a Unit, which may gain special benefits of their own, such as the Roman "Turtle" made from the soldier's shields.

Sen
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ccg combat system, looking for ideas

^^^ that's the method I'm currently using in a game I'm working on. It works well enough I think, although I just call it Attack line and Defense line because there's one at the front, the L/R flank, and the rear.

CIDIC
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ccg combat system, looking for ideas

i think the hardest part is i havent played anything like what i'm aiming for, so i have no referance point its very very hard. I guess just trail and error. has anyone made a roman warfare cardgame like that before?

CIDIC
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ccg combat system, looking for ideas

heres a little brain storming, now that i look closer at the idea i dunno if it will work.

your units have 3 stats A/B//C

A = primary attack
B = secondary attack
C = defence

durring each players turn there is a combat phase. the player who's turn it is, is the attacker. they take turns allocating damage from their units to their oponents marking with counters as they go along. the attacker's units deal damage = to their primary attack, and the defenders units deal damage = to their secondary. each card can only target one other card, so if it has attack 3 it has to allocate all 3 damage to 1 target. the defender may either have one of his units deal damage = to its secondary attack stat or remove damage from itself = to its secondary attack stat. players go back and forth until all units have allocated. next phase: units with damage =to or greater than defence are destroyed.

what do you think of this mechanic? does it have potential will it work?

oh and does anyone have any ideas for interesting ways to win? other than say life points? or deck mill?

NetWolf
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ccg combat system, looking for ideas

To me that combat seems a little static. Rather 'point and shoot'. Instead of choosing who you attack, I would have the players choose to "Advance a Force". The defending player must then choose to intercept the army or let it rampage through it's own ranks.

As far as winning, why not allow each army to have a "General" who directs the army (ies). If the general dies, then the game is over. The army falling into chaos will simply disperse itself.

I do like the primary and secondary attacks, and defense as a concept, though you may want to change it to Attack, Defence, and Preparation. The preparation seems to cover all the functions of that attribute. I can definately see an archer unit using this system, as well as regular foot troops.

Archer

Attack: 5
Preparation: 3
Defense: 5

[Ranged]

Archers cannot be dealt
damage by an intercepting
opponent, unless that opponent
is also a ranged combatant.

__________________

Pikeman

Attack: 4
Preparation: 4 (6)
Defense: 4

Soldier

Pikemen gain +2 Preparation
when intercepting Cavalry.

Basically the archers are purely offensive, made to rain arrows upon their enemies. If they are directly engaged, though, they can fall back on shortswords and daggers, but in that they are not very proficient.

The Pikemen are not very proficient attackers, though they are excellent for intercepting oncoming opponents, especially cavalry.

CIDIC
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ccg combat system, looking for ideas

one other thing i've been trying to do is think of another theme for a customizable card game other than war, conflict, or duels. what else could a custom deck game be any ideas? empire building but i couldn't help but picture that as boring.

OutsideLime
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ccg combat system, looking for ideas

Quote:
one other thing i've been trying to do is think of another theme for a customizable card game other than war, conflict, or duels. what else could a custom deck game be any ideas? empire building but i couldn't help but picture that as boring.

You'd need a theme that has many different representable elements and is easily expandable. The elements need to have enough difference from each other to justify their existence, plus the cards have to be visually interesting and inspire collection. That's why combat, and particularly fantasy/sci-fi combat, is especially well-suited for the genre. They're both infinitely expandable and fun to look at.

So what non-combat genre fits? Sports? Battle of the Bands? Horror? There are many possibilities. Push the limits of the genre. CCGs don't need to be two players holding a deck of cards, directly battling with each other.

~Josh

Sen
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ccg combat system, looking for ideas

wasn't SimCity turned into a CCG? Illuminati isn't really combat - but it's conflict I guess.

NetWolf
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ccg combat system, looking for ideas

With the possible exception of Horror, it seems that conflict is a key element in the CCG genre. I could see a multiplayer game for Horror where the object is to simply survive, though 'cheating' would be easy considering you just take the more deadly foes out of your deck. Perhaps a set-up could be achieved where you have both cards to help yourself survive/escape as well as cards to impede/threaten your opponents.

...then again you're still trying to best an opponent. You've stumbled onto a difficult concept. :P

Sen
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ccg combat system, looking for ideas

At the core of CCGs is the notion of competition...that my deck is better than yours. That my cards beat your cards.

Without that competition, there'd be no drive to collect - which is what the manufacturers want obviously.

If you check the history of CCGs, I wonder if you'd find any non-combat / conflict ones that are in the top sellers.

Even Pokemon is combat.

Nando
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ccg combat system, looking for ideas

CIDIC wrote:
...think of another theme for a customizable card game other than war, conflict, or duels.
Note that he didn't say collectible.

Sen
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ccg combat system, looking for ideas

true dat.

Competition is at the heart of any game, however. Not necessarily battle/guns/swords, but competition nevertheless.

I'm sure you could make a very nice Premiere League customizable card game in which the cards are players and you have a salary (point) cap to buy your team with, for example. No fighting involved, but footie is still competitive.

If you want to do a non-C CG, then I'd say anything is worth a shot as far as being able to customize what you're playing with before hand.

Something as simple as being able to load your deck with more of a certain number or colour or shape or whatever the mechanic demands is customizing it to help you win whatever game you're playing, no matter what the theme/setting.

You could have a customizable game about building a house (I was just at Home Depot so this comes to mind) and you get a budget to build a deck containing certain tool and material related cards. then there's a deck of repairs people need to do around the house and players compete to see who can complete the most repairs. I dunno. What would customization add to this game? or why would you not want a jigsaw at the expense of 1 extra router table? I have no clue. I'm just saying that it could be done in a non-collectable manner.

For collection, though, I believe that the more intense the competition, the more people will be interested. So that Premiere League game idea above...could be a good one ;)

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