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CG: King of Monsters

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Fhizban
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Hello ,
This is my first post about one of my newer card-game ideas. right now its just a raw concept - many of the details are still missing. So new ideas, constructive criticism and the like are all welcome. I will not post the complete rules mechanism here as it is just too much stuff and i will add new rules over the time (I also plan on starting a journal on this one). so lets start right away:

This game is planned as a card game. I like to call it an 'expandable card game' because the term TCG (or CCG) just doesn't suit it. Everything Collectible is (from my point of view) a bit much for just one person. and the game itself already seems to become very complex (something i usually try to prevent).

The title of the game ("King of Monsters") comes from a old SNES console title. The game was about gigantic mutated monsters fighting against each other in american or japanese cities. The game was pretty bad and not very interesting - but the theme is great for a 2-player card-based combat game.

So in this game each player represents one of theese gargantuan creatures (aka: silicone puppets) as seen in typical japanese movies. The target is to knock out the other players creature by reducing it's 'health' to zero points. A wide array of creatures should be available, featuring classic antics like a godzilla rip-off, king-kong, outer-space aliens, gigantic robots, the marshmellowman from ghostbusters, the giant dinosaurs from the console game primal rage and so on. the possibilities are almost endless.

So let me introduce the first two types of cards in the game: 'Creature-Cards' and 'Creature-Templates': A Creature-Card presents the monster on the (very simplified) playing-field. Its a card of standard size (about 6,5 cm * 9 cm) that just shows the picture of the monster. This card is used to move the creature around to locate its position. The 'Creature-Template' on the other hand is a card double the size of a standard gaming card (about 13 cm * 9 cm). it shows the same picture of the monster and in addition to that the combat attributes (like 'health' etc.). This Template isn't moved around, but placed in front of the player for quick reference. Little tokens to represent loss of health are also placed on the Creature-Templates (Thought: It would be possible to use just one card instead of two to make things simpler, but i have not decided about this yet. this depends on how many different stats there will be
and if all of the tokens easily fit on a card that will be moved around all then time).

Oookay. In addition to that every player has a deck that contains about 40 to 60 cards. those cards represent the 'Attacks' of your monster. your deck can contain some special cards like events, mutations, special-attacks and the like - to spice up the game and to make your deck more unique. (Thought: there should be a limit on how many duplicates of one card a player can put into his deck).

Then, there is another pile of cards that contains so called 'Locations'. this deck is shared(!) by both players. at the start of the game each player may shuffle a certain amount of locations into the location-deck (Thought: there should be a limit on how many duplicates of a location a player may put into this deck). The locations represent various urban, suburban and wilderness areas. some monsters may have an advantage on specific territory while others may suffer from a disadvantage. There could also be locations that enable the monsters to do special attacks, like climbing up a building or hurling cars at the opponent (Thought: Endless Possibilities here and i still have not decided for a fixed set of rules). The location cards are like the Creature-Templates double the size of a normal card (thus 13 cm * 9 cm). Each location has a big picture on it and enough space for the special rules that apply. In addition to
that there is enough space on a location card to place two Creature-Cards on it, so both players creature are able to occupy a location at the same time. theese
slots on the location cards are used to indicate where the creatures are positioned on the playing-field (May be unclear but i go more into detail soon). There are always three locations in play - no more, no less and they are all alined next to each other to form a strip of landscape the monsters can move along.

The number of slots between the two creature describe the distance between them.
* If both creatures are located on the same location card (wich means there is no empty slot between them) they are in 'Melee' combat. During melee the players can do grapple and throw attacks but they are not able to start attacks that need lots of preperation time or open space to perform.
* If there is one empty slot between the two creatures then they are considered in 'Hand-to-Hand-Combat'. This is the standard attack range for most attacks although its not possible to use grapples and the like anymore and it is not possible to use ranged-attacks at this distance.
* If there are two empty slots between the creatures, they are in 'Short Range'. Most of the ranged attacks can be used at short range and there are some special-attacks like 'whirlwind kick' (or whatever) that move the monster from short range into H-T-H or even melee.
* If there are three empty slots between the creatures we call it 'Long Range'. Only some ranged attacks can be used at this range.
* And finally with four empty slots between the creatures we are at 'Out of Reach' - the maximum distance. There are no attacks planned that can be used at this distance. Its perfect for a quick retreat after you stunned your enemy or if you want to regenerate your monster (or whatever).

This should be enough for now (if anyone actually reads this). Its already very much information in one go. I have added some pictures to my website to make things a bit more clear - i hope the visuals help you understanding the key concepts. actually the game is really easy once you got the basics. the next post will cover how to place locations and how to actually draw cards and move the monsters around. this can take a while because i actually have to prepare the posts here - this behemoth of a game is really complex....Phew!

Sample Creature-Card: http://www.zockergilde.net/kom/creature.jpg
Sample Creature-Template: http://www.zockergilde.net/kom/ctemplate.jpg
Sample Location Card: http://www.zockergilde.net/kom/location.jpg
Sample Card-Back (haha): http://www.zockergilde.net/kom/back.jpg
The Playing Field: http://www.zockergilde.net/kom/field.jpg
Distance Measurement (large): http://www.zockergilde.net/kom/distance.jpg

-Fhizban[/url]

Anonymous
Re: CG: King of Monsters

Quote:
So new ideas, constructive criticism and the like are all welcome.

Promise? ;)

Okay, your *theme* caught my eye, and for whatever weird reason (actually not alcohol related for once) I have some strong feelings and opinions for you to digest (or vomit).

Quote:
This game is planned as a card game. I like to call it an 'expandable card game' because the term TCG (or CCG) just doesn't suit it.

Excellent choice.

Quote:
and the game itself already seems to become very complex (something i usually try to prevent).

I think you should stick to your *usual guns* and still try to prevent...

Quote:
The title of the game ("King of Monsters") comes from a old SNES console title.

For a multitude of reasons, keep this tid bit on the DL and don't mention it ever again (hehehe...). Give your title a slight alteration (King of the Giant Monsters) and distance yourself from the SNES inspiration at all costs (then slyly mention it again in an interview a couple years from now when your game is a huge success.)

Quote:
A wide array of creatures should be available, featuring classic antics like a godzilla rip-off, king-kong, outer-space aliens, gigantic robots, the marshmellowman from ghostbusters, the giant dinosaurs from the console game primal rage and so on. the possibilities are almost endless.

This is where you make this game *yours*... you need to own it baby, get all these ideas of video game and movie monsters out of your head (and off your graphics) and truly make those rip-offs - unique and fun (or dark).... but make it YOURS!

Quote:
A Creature-Card presents the monster on the (very simplified) playing-field. Its a card of standard size (about 6,5 cm * 9 cm) that just shows the picture of the monster.

Drop this, uneeded repetitive overkill... use a tiny chit, coin, pawn, stone, token, each of a different color for each player... your FLAVOR and color and unique monster identity is on your template loud and clear for everyone to see, the pawn is just a small effecient extension of this.

Quote:
The 'Creature-Template' on the other hand is a card double the size of a standard gaming card.

No no no...

Quote:
(Thought: It would be possible to use just one card instead of two to make things simpler,

Yes yes yes!

Think small and efficient on your game and your production costs - keep *everything* to the standard size playing card. Visualize that kid walking home from school with that deck of your playing cards perfectly tucked in his pocket.

Just use a tiny token to track health or more innovative ways, like the positioning (tapping/flipping) of the template card itself or loss of cards in the deck, etc...

Quote:
Oookay. In addition to that every player has a deck that contains about 40 to 60 cards. those cards represent the 'Attacks' of your monster. your deck can contain some special cards like events, mutations, special-attacks and the like

Perfect! Also perhaps human military army cards that the opponent can play on you, representing the locations local military throwing a few pot shots at you (tanks, planes, rockets, endless)

Quote:
Then, there is another pile of cards that contains so called 'Locations'. The locations represent various urban, suburban and wilderness areas. some monsters may have an advantage on specific territory while others may suffer from a disadvantage. There could also be locations that enable the monsters to do special attacks, like climbing up a building or hurling cars at the opponent (Thought: Endless Possibilities here).

Agree, endless, very cool. Also perhaps Oceans, Deserts, Planets... (naw scratch that, save Planets for the first expansion... ahem...)

Quote:
The location cards are like the Creature-Templates double the size of a normal card (thus 13 cm * 9 cm).

Again, I think you may be killing yourself here... stick to a standard single card size for reasons of slickness, packaging, playability and printing to name a few. I'd scrap teh double card. Have the location cards be regular cards, graphically divided in two, with plenty o' room for a two opposing tokens (one in each corner), graphics, stats and flavor (just like a standard sized monster template card).

Quote:
The number of slots between the two creature describe the distance between them.
* If both creatures are located on the same location card (wich means there is no empty slot between them) they are in 'Melee' combat. During melee the players can do grapple and throw attacks but they are not able to start attacks that need lots of preperation time or open space to perform.
* If there is one empty slot between the two creatures then they are considered in 'Hand-to-Hand-Combat'. This is the standard attack range for most attacks although its not possible to use grapples and the like anymore and it is not possible to use ranged-attacks at this distance.
* If there are two empty slots between the creatures, they are in 'Short Range'. Most of the ranged attacks can be used at short range and there are some special-attacks like 'whirlwind kick' (or whatever) that move the monster from short range into H-T-H or even melee.
* If there are three empty slots between the creatures we call it 'Long Range'. Only some ranged attacks can be used at this range.
* And finally with four empty slots between the creatures we are at 'Out of Reach' - the maximum distance. There are no attacks planned that can be used at this distance. Its perfect for a quick retreat after you stunned your enemy or if you want to regenerate your monster (or whatever).

Way too much (remember new ideas, constructive criticism and the like are all welcome... :))

combine melee and grappling into one *close combat* range when opponents are sharing same location card, and dont allow range attacks. Then have any slots between them enable range attacks, with a simple penalty modifier the more slots there is tween them...

Scrap the idea of out of range on the board, and just translate that into the attack cards themselves... make cards for out of range, dodge, block, etc

you could now even limit your land/location cards to TWO instead of 3... which lends itself nicely to *now each player plays a location card* wham bam.

Alternatively you could scrap tracking the monsters on the location cards all together and just have the location cards there for flavor and to add the terrain bonuses you mentioned... and just have the distances (melee and ranged) happen in rounds... first round of battle is long range second is melee, etc... it could flux back and forth every other round (Happens in the rubber suit monster movies all the time)

like this

round 1: *ranged attacks only

round 2: *melee attacks only

round 3: *ranged attacks only

round 4: *melee attacks only

etc...

should have same effect, if Prince Kongo doesnt have a ranged attack he is screwed that round, on the next round if Lordzilla doesnt have a melee attack, he's gonna get trounced...

__

I also think it would be cool to have preset balanced decks for each monster... where as Prince Kongo obviously doesnt have laser eyes or fire breath... he has hurl boulder and earthquake stomp for range, deck leaning more melee tho

Lordzilla wouldnt have punch and kick, but maybe a bite and claw, but the deck would be more ranged...

That's just me tho... and I'm a freak for things making sense in places they maybe shouldnt.

Quote:
I have added some pictures to my website to make things a bit more clear - i hope the visuals help you understanding the key concepts.

I sense some graphic design ability here, very nice!

Fhizban
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CG: King of Monsters

Hey you are decomposing my idea! No, not really - very good arguments indeed. Im on the job now - I will answer in detail this evening. the three best things (yes i thought too big):

a.) sticking to the standard card size
b.) using a pawn, token etc. to represent the monsters
c.) reducing the number of locations and ranges

and yes, i want to do my own monsters and theme. this king of monsters stuff is just a working title and the monsters i used for the sample graphics are just some kind of eyecatchers.

EDIT: I want to keep the locations at any cost. I just imaginge the kids starting a game and slamming their cards on the table: "My Monster *wham* , my Land *blam* and now come on and fight!"

more on this later.
lets get this baby moving!

Anonymous
CG: King of Monsters

Quote:

a.) sticking to the standard card size
b.) using a pawn, token etc. to represent the monsters
c.) reducing the number of locations and ranges

Those were the three main goals of my post, so I'm pleasantly surprised.

Quote:
and yes, i want to do my own monsters and theme. this king of monsters stuff is just a working title and the monsters i used for the sample graphics are just some kind of eyecatchers.

Ok gotchya, excellent.

Quote:
EDIT: I want to keep the locations at any cost. I just imaginge the kids starting a game and slamming their cards on the table: "My Monster *wham* , my Land *blam* and now come on and fight!"

now THAT is a vision!!! I can visualize that exact thing with your new version 2.0

*wink*

Fhizban
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CG: King of Monsters

So I just returned from work and Im too lazy to post the rest of the stuff this evening. But, I would like to reveal the next game mechanic although there is lots of other stuff left to explain.

How to handle player actions
Players take turns simultaneousily. at the start of every turn, each player draws a fresh card from his deck and then plays a card from his hand. the played card is placed 'face down' (!) in front of him. once both cards are placed on the table they get turned over and thus reveal the action each player wants to perform. so, each card has a 'speed' attribute and the faster action gets resolved first. so a faster attack deals damage before a slower one and so on.

Well, Im thinking about building a subsection on my website for this baby. The Forum posts are good for discussion and playing with thoughts but not to keep track of a ruleset. and the journal is (sorry just my point of few) a little bit too unflexible for my needs.

So, lets see how things develop.

akacamper
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Joined: 12/31/1969
CG: King of Monsters

I started an Idea like this about 5 years ago and never got very far into it b/c of college and all my computer classes. I like what you have done and it sounds like it is coming together very well.

I would like to suggest something for you to look into. The game i started making was based off of a game for the comador 64. The game was Titled- Crush Crumble Chomp. In the game you can buy any monster you want, then you would buy upgrade for your monster. Some monsters could be meat eaters and others would be plant eaters. Once each player had bought all the upgrades they could with the cash they had then you enter into the game. From what i can remember i think you were trying to kill the other monster and keep you monster alive. if your creature could eat meat you could grab some people off the road and eat them to gain health and same for planteaters they would eat a tree.

It been 15 years since i played this game so i might be a bit off in some parts of the game.

This could provide unique monsters for each player without having to use named monsters. U could also add in food bonus cards that are used to heal your monster. you monster could be a monster based on defence where he can use cards to deflect shots back at the other monsters or he could use cards like epathy that make the attackign monster take X damage for haveing the faster attack.

Something like
warding attack = attack speed 2, damage dealt 10. Notation: If the other monster's attack is faster, that monster takes 20 damage when they attack and then 10 damage for your real attack.

At work still i just typed without reviewing sorry for m/s words.Just some suggestions. i will not be hurt if they will not help your game.

Camper

P.S. after reviewing CC&C i noticed i was talking about a game that is somewhat like CC&C but anyway sorry...if i find its name i will let you know. dang 1983 computer games...

akacamper
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Joined: 12/31/1969
CG: King of Monsters

the game name was mail order monsters

kthxbye,
Camper

Fhizban
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CG: King of Monsters

@akacamper:
thanks for the information I will do some research on the topic. I like the idea of eating humans to regain health. But I really want to use unique monsters as this adds a lot of flair and possibilities for some background stories. But, upgrading the monsters using mutations is still an option.

@Brahmulus:
Im thinking about reducing the locations to 2 (and resizing the cards ;). So i would end up with your melee/ranged approach wich seems enough. this would make things waaaaay easier and still provides this tactical 'distance stuff'. *still puzzling about this one*

'I'am an ancient beast - I look like a dinosaur but in my veins flows molten iron and this is my home: a erupting volcano surrounded by black fumes. dare to attack me on my terrain and you will suffer heavy penalties or just stay here and i will breath fire at you (well what mr. ancient dinosaur doesnt now is that is enemy is equally equipped and so he just HAS to do something to win the game).'

Oh, seems I have been off with the fearies...

Anonymous
CG: King of Monsters

Funny, this idea is the same as one I was working on and dropped. It was called "City under monster attack", a sort of joke about badly translated titles and dialog fro japapneese. and it was partly inspired by the SNES game and those old TOHO movies.

Brahmulus has some good suggestions there, though I'm not sure I undetand the point of the flutcuationg rounds of melee/missle. Seems like this is a little to restricting as opposed to simply having melee at "0" range (same spot) and missle at 1 posistion apart. Not sure about balancving between melee and missle attakcs though.

Anonymous
CG: King of Monsters

Quote:
I'm not sure I undetand the point of the flutcuationg rounds of melee/missle.

This was an alternative option where you could scrap tokens and tracking distances all together. You simply each play your terrain card and consider those bonus/penalties for the battle.

With this method you could still have a range/melee game component... by simply alternating when it could happen (monsters are in close fighting thsi round, they fall (get knocked) back for the second round, they again engage close on the next round, etc...

This is just an option for scrapping physical mapping of monster positions so to speak.

Fhizban
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CG: King of Monsters

Work slows down the design process right now.

@Foolster41:
Yes actually i had the same vision in mind. the monsters and the enviroment should be really sinister and the overall goal is fight to the death. But, the game should be like a single parody on theese japanese movies (and things like transformers - i think a giant robot would fit quite well into the game).

@Brahmulus:
Well then i got you wrong about the location thing. I like reducing the number of locations to two - one for me and one for my enemy. as this introduces terrain effects and there is always this question: shall i move into enemy terretory or wait until he attacks me on my ground? But, i still want to move the cards around on the table. this alternating thing is a bit strange because it would happen automaticly. i want the players to be able to decide if they move into or outof combat this turn. right now there are just two distances: melee/ranged instead of five. but maybe i go with three in total. this would enable three locations - one for me, one for my enemy and some kind of neutral terrain between us two. But: I still have no final implementation as moving in a card game is always a bit tricky. the best solution would be if the game could be played anywhere in anytime.

Another thing i thought about is the Health of the monsters:

i dont want to use tokens to represent health. instead i will go with the idea they used (for example) in the battletech card game: every time you successfully attack your opponent you remove the top X cards from his deck. where X is the number of damage you have dealt. basicly i dont like ideas that disassemble my deck BUT in this game i think its just great. because you loose valuable cards like attacks, evades etc. its not just loosing health - its about that your possibilities of what you can do in the game are getting smaller and smaller and this is kind of a neat representation of your monster getting weaker and weaker.

and: when regaining health you just shuffle your discard pile and then reshuffle the top X cards from it back into your deck. where X is the amount of health you regained. it increases your health and the variety of cards in your deck.

I am about to prepare a website with all the rules - it just takes a while. some kind of online-rulebook as a base where i can start designing the monsters and attacks from.

So. There's lots of work for me to do - organizing and writing down all the rules.

Anonymous
CG: King of Monsters

Quote:

Well then i got you wrong about the location thing.

naw, u didnt... it was just an *alternative* if you wanted to keep it ALL cards... i think ur ok with a couple of tokens...

just always think about that kid walking hoem from school, can he carry your complete game on his person and not feel like a geek... thats my vision always...

i think ur fine with a couple of tokens/stones

Fhizban
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CG: King of Monsters

Hi,
I think Im gonna to change the system even a bit more. I got absolutely fascinated by the idea to make the game as 'fast-paced' as possible. So:

I will keep the locations but remove the distance stuff completely. both players are always on the same location. instead of playing a attack card (or any other card) a player can instead play a new location card. this location card replaces the previous location card in play. the locations give tactical advantages or disadvantages to the players and by changing the current location a player 'moves the battle to another place' and thus changes this tactical aspect.

Technical Side: Image you are playing a robot character. This character is strong and tough but cannot eat people to regain health. there are city locations wich enable you to eat people instead of attacking your enemy this turn. so when your enemy is a 'living thing' like godzilla he will always try to keep the battle in the cities and you as a robot will try to move the battle to a desserted (or even hostile) place. Sounds good, doesn't it?

The other *wham* *blam* side: Imagine this sample sequence of turns (a bit over the top and not very objective at all):

*wham, blam, smash, murder death, kill*
#and so i move the battle to NEW YORK!#
*blam blam, kill, grapple, throw, hurl, eat*
#asta la vista baby as i carry the war to the GOBI DESSERT!#
*wham, smash, blam, blam*
#No no my dear, lets head for HONGKONG!#
*murder, death, kill*
#And now on to the AMAZONAS JUNGLE!#

yeah okay i think you already got it. got carried away as always ;)

So, im out for a few days - on a buisness trip. once im back i will start to build a website for the basic rulebook and then lets see how things develop.

KyRez
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Joined: 12/31/1969
CG: King of Monsters

Fhizban wrote:
I will keep the locations but remove the distance stuff completely. both players are always on the same location. instead of playing a attack card (or any other card) a player can instead play a new location card. this location card replaces the previous location card in play. the locations give tactical advantages or disadvantages to the players and by changing the current location a player 'moves the battle to another place' and thus changes this tactical aspect.

Sounds like a better plan, I remember playing the old Star Wars CCG which was horribly location-filled. It got ridiculously complicated after a while.

(I'm new by the way, hi!)

Anonymous
CG: King of Monsters

Quote:

I will keep the locations but remove the distance stuff completely. both players are always on the same location.

Love it, this is how I think and build all the time... simple... still cool to play mind you... but streamlined, efficient and self contained... compact!

Quote:
Technical Side: Image you are playing a robot character. This character is strong and tough but cannot eat people to regain health.

But, if the robot is in a city location with *power lines* he recovers health/life.... while living monsters would take damage!

;)

Anonymous
CG: King of Monsters

I forgot to mention, another idea I had for the game is there are a "human army" element to the game, where either both players take turns manipulating the soldiers, or can play them on their own side to fight the other monster. thoguth it might be something to consider as a aprt of your game.

Anonymous
CG: King of Monsters

That annoying banner on the front BGG promotes a new Giant Monster game where players controlling troops aganist each other is a big mechanic. Someone also reminded me of Gammarauders in this thread which used human troops as well... and I found a game on BGG that sadly, has already covered most of what we discussed... even the terrain cards... i cant find it now of course but the main image on the BGG site has those little rubber monster finger puppets u could get in gumball machines.

Fhizban
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CG: King of Monsters

Hello im back from my trip.

The core rules for the card game almost finished - lets call it an early alpha version. i will publish them on my website as soon as everything is ready and polished.

there are still some things i have to get right and i introduced a few more tweaks here and there. when i release the rules i will post an alternative to one or another game mechanic here and there, maybe we could do some kind of poll for wich system we decide - at least this could help me finding the right direction. another thing: im adding a designers section to the rules so that everyone who wants to can build his own cards according to some rules. maybe we can gather a pool of cards this way so that we have something to playtest later on.

speaking about cards: i said, the core rules are almost finished: i have not even started to design cards around them

thats all for now

*heads back to everydays life*

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