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Combat Resolution Question ...

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hawaiiirish
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Joined: 01/21/2009

Aloha,

I am working on an area-control Strategy game. When opposing forces meet in an area, combat occurs. I am looking for feedback for my combat resolution phase:

1. Attacker and Defender each roll (simultaneously) 1 d6 for each unit in each respective force (up to a max of 5)
2. Attacker dice and Defender dice are compared; matching values are paired up and ignored. (For example, Att rolls a "3" and Def rolls a "3" - those dice are removed)
3. For any remaining dice, apply hits as follows:
For a roll of 1 or 6, select and destroy an enemy piece
For a roll of 2 - 5, select and withdraw an enemy piece (withdrawn pieces may no longer particiapte in the battle)
4. Combat continues until the following occurs:
One side has no active pieces in which to particiapte in the battle

5. When combat ends, the winner retains the area, the loser must withdraw to an adjacent space, etc.

I'm considering other situations, unit bonus how they would work. Tougher units might only be destroyed on a six, etc.

Anyone have thoughts on this type of system?

Epigone
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Joined: 12/31/1969
Combat Resolution Question ...

As stated, it has a definite feature. Right now whoever brings the least troops will be forced to withdraw. On each roll, if both sides have the same number of dice, since ties are removed from each equally, the same number of troops from both attacker and defender will be out of the fight each round (either destroyed or withdrawn). Maybe that's what you want, and it can definitely be changed by unit bonuses, but as it is now it might as well be simplified to "Player with the most units takes control of the area. Roll to see how many units die on the defender's and attacker's side."

hawaiiirish
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Joined: 01/21/2009
Combat Resolution Question ...

thanks for the response! I really think that it makes sense that the force with greater numbers would win, however, I want to build some suspense into it... Do you think that the idea would be blunted a bit if there was a limit to the number of rounds combat occured?

For instance, if the space is still contested after, say, 2 rounds of combat, the attacker must withdraw. This makes it possible for a counter-attack by the defender or to reinforce a position. Or the pieces co-mingle in the space and combat resolved at some later point (another action phase, for instance).

I understand your central point: the defender can only strike blows equal to the number of blows the attacker can strike. The difference is potency: 1's and 6's are kills, where anything else is a "withdraw". The defender could "kill" 3 attacking pieces and the attacker only force the defender to withdraw 3 pieces. Although the attacker wins, the "attacking force" is in a weaker position now down 3 pieces. Although withdrawn, the defender retains his pieces for a counter-attack later.

Thoughts on that?

OutsideLime
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Joined: 12/31/1969
Combat Resolution Question ...

Quote:
I understand your central point: the defender can only strike blows equal to the number of blows the attacker can strike. The difference is potency: 1's and 6's are kills, where anything else is a "withdraw". The defender could "kill" 3 attacking pieces and the attacker only force the defender to withdraw 3 pieces. Although the attacker wins, the "attacking force" is in a weaker position now down 3 pieces. Although withdrawn, the defender retains his pieces for a counter-attack later.

...withdrawn to where? If each team withdraws into the space they came from, this only works if they both came from spaces other than the space they are fighting over.

What if the combat was triggered by the attacker moving into the space occupied by the defender? Attacking pieces withdraw to the space they came from, and defending pieces withdraw to the contested space? That doesn't make sense, because if the attacker wins, he takes control of a space that contains the withdrawn defenders.

So, where do withdrawn troops go?

~Josh

hawaiiirish
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Joined: 01/21/2009
Combat Resolution Question ...

My thought was into another, friendly controlled area. A retreat. I didn't specify that...I'm sorry. Defenders would move into friendly controlled areas; attackers would move back to the space where the attack originated.

Here is a full example:

1. Attacker moves 6 pieces into an enemy controlled area
2. Defender is holding the area with 4 pieces

**Round 1**
Attacker rolls: 1,2,5,5,3 (max 5 rolls)
Defender rolls: 2,3,5,6 (total defenders)

Results:
There are two matches: one "3" and one "5". Each of those are removed from the roll. This leaves the attacker with 1,2,5 and the defender with 2,6.

The Attacker may now eliminate one defender (for the "1" rolled) and may select two pieces (for the "2" and "5") to be "withdrawn".

The Defender also eliminates one piece (for the "6") and may select one attacker to be "withdrawn" (for the "2").

**End of Round 1**
Attacker now has 4 attacking pieces left (one was eliminated and one has been "disengaged" or "withdrawn")
Defender now has 1 defending piece (two were "withdrawn" and one was eliminated)

From here, a number of things could happen, I'm interested to see if anyone has thoughts about this.

Nando
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Joined: 07/22/2008
Combat Resolution Question ...

HawaiiIrish wrote:
Results:
There are two matches: one "3" and one "5". Each of those are removed from the roll. This leaves the attacker with 1,2,5 and the defender with 2,6.
Those 2s look awfully conspicuous.

I think this sounds pretty neat. But what do I know?

hawaiiirish
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Joined: 01/21/2009
Combat Resolution Question ...

AH! Keen eyes. Ya' know, maybe I should give up on game designing...attention to detail and all...

You are right, those 2's would have been cancelled out. To edit my example:

1. The defender got a kill shot - eliminates 1 attacker.
2. The attacker gets a kill shot (the 1) and withdraws one defender (the 5).

Net Result:
Defender now sits with 2 (1 killed , 1 withdrawn)
Attacker now sits with 5 (1 eliminated)

The more I look at this, the more I think there should be one round of combat.

koshianok
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Joined: 01/28/2009
Combat Resolution Question ...

I like the combat mechanic. I agree that 1 round of combat sounds better.

I do have a couple of question though:

1. If the attacker does not take the space, and the defender has some units pushed back. If the defenders turn comes up next, can’t he just move those units back, with reinforcements if they are in the area. Are there any special rules regarding units that have been pushed back.

2. I'm curious how you would bring unit bonuses into this system.

3. If ties cancel each other out, why do you want a die of 3 or 4 to be no result?

Nando
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Joined: 07/22/2008
Combat Resolution Question ...

Koshianok wrote:
3. If ties cancel each other out, why do you want a die of 3 or 4 to be no result?
I think you're misunderstanding:
HawaiiIrish wrote:
3. For any remaining dice, apply hits as follows:
For a roll of 1 or 6, select and destroy an enemy piece
For a roll of 2 - 5, select and withdraw an enemy piece
2-5 is a range.

larienna
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Joined: 07/28/2008
Combat Resolution Question ...

Limiting the number of round in a combat could be interesting since it reflect the fact that it takes more time to conquer an area.

To avoid occuation and retreat problems, you could make the movement and attack in 2 different phase. On the movement phase, you move the units on the countries you want to invade. The on the combat phase all territories occupied by different armies will fight each other for a certain number of round.

If both opponent survive, the battle will continue the next turn. But additional movement or retreat can be made in the next movement phase before combat occurs again.

koshianok
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Joined: 01/28/2009
Combat Resolution Question ...

Ok, that makes more sense. Oops.

hawaiiirish
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Joined: 01/21/2009
Combat Resolution Question ...

Koshianok wrote:

1. If the attacker does not take the space, and the defender has some units pushed back. If the defenders turn comes up next, can’t he just move those units back, with reinforcements if they are in the area. Are there any special rules regarding units that have been pushed back.

I think the answer is co-mingling of the troops. If the attacker fails to remove all defenders after one round, they remain and any defenders remain. Those units pushed back could return in the next turn to "counter-attack". The defender could also choose to retreat those forces, effectively "giving up" the area, during his turn. What's the phrase in war? "Space for Time" ??

Koshianok wrote:

2. I'm curious how you would bring unit bonuses into this system.

I thought more rolls would be one way to add unit bonus. I want to keep this from becoming a dice-fest...so, the bonuses wouldn't take the rolls past the maximum (5). For attackers, that might be a real problem. That way, a small group of defenders might stand a chance against a larger attacking force. Depending on the application (genre, really) the system could support unit types (armor, artillery, mounted, etc.) with extra rolls added based on the situation (defending, attacking, etc).

Another idea is that these units have "kill shots" that are more than the 1 and 6. Maybe add "2" to the kill shot list. Instead of a withdraw, the attacker/defender scores a kill. This keeps it from becoming a dice-fest, but units become more lethal.

(I made a small edit after I read the reply).

hawaiiirish
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Joined: 01/21/2009
Combat Resolution Question ...

Just wanted to thank everyone for the good comments. If you have anymore, please share!

Thanks again,
Hawaii Irish.

NetWolf
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Joined: 12/31/1969
Combat Resolution Question ...

Larienna's idea of having movement and combat in two separate rounds would make the game far more streamlined. That way you can choose when to advance, retreat, or fortify based on your own choices rather than the result of a dice roll.

Player 1's Turn:<br />
-Moves units into a new territory. (Uncontested)<br />
-He is not in conflict with any enemy units so there is no combat.</p>
<p>Player 2's Turn:<br />
-Moves his units into the same territory where Player 1 is waiting.<br />
-There is contested territory so combat ensues.<br />
 ~combat takes place~</p>
<p>Player 1's Turn:<br />
-Faced with supperior numbers he withdraws his forces from the contested territory into an area where he already has units, thus reinforcing that territory.<br />
-No contested territories, no combat.

Make sense?

Torrent
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Joined: 08/03/2008
Combat Resolution Question ...

I like the general idea of this but several things stand out from the 'usability' of it.

Why 1 and 6? Statiscally 5-6 is the same, and atleast for me easier to spot. High = Kills, low = repells.

I think your bonuses could easily come into play here. A Tank unit can kill on 5-6, but Infantry can only kill on a 6. Or the flipside, a Tank Unit can only be killed with an opposing 6, but an Infantry can be killed with a 5 or 6. You could also add a 'dead spot'. Frex, a roll of 1 would not be able to rout a Tank unit.
This adds the strategy of choosing which dice you want to use to pick units. Example: Say I roll (untied) 4,5,6. I then get the choice of repelling one unit, and killing a unit (the 4 and 6 respectivly), but the 5 I need to decide to kill and infantry or rout a tank.

hawaiiirish
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Combat Resolution Question ...

NetWolf wrote:

Player 1's Turn:<br />
-Moves units into a new territory. (Uncontested)<br />
-He is not in conflict with any enemy units so there is no combat.</p>
<p>Player 2's Turn:<br />
-Moves his units into the same territory where Player 1 is waiting.<br />
-There is contested territory so combat ensues.<br />
 ~combat takes place~</p>
<p>Player 1's Turn:<br />
-Faced with supperior numbers he withdraws his forces from the contested territory into an area where he already has units, thus reinforcing that territory.<br />
-No contested territories, no combat.

Make sense?

That makes a lot of sense to me. It's a little more that the original post regarding combat resolution; it's more about phasing. But, I like the suggestion.

About phasing: in your opinion(s), would it slow things down to have phased movement and then a single combat phase? In the example above, it appears that combat occurs after each player phases (moves). Would it make sense to have something like this:

<br />
Player One - Move<br />
Player Two - Move<br />
Player Three - Move<br />
(some diplomacy phase between players to set alliances, etc.)<br />
Any area with contested forces do battle.<br />
Rinse and Repeat<br />

Maybe more movement phases before battle is settled? A single battle round to take note of losses, etc.? Any thoughts to this?

About the resolution: I've been trying this system out and some interesting things have emerged being the defender: you are hoping for a stalemate (ties). If you tie, you blunt the attack. From a defender's standpoint, that's precisely what you have to do to win the battle - you never need to drive the attacker off the field, just stop him from winning outright. As the defender, you never want to trade blows with the attacker.

By issuing ties, the defender is buying time to mount a counter (the next phase). Does anyone else think that's an interesting mechanic?

hawaiiirish
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Joined: 01/21/2009
Combat Resolution Question ...

Torrent wrote:
Why 1 and 6? Statiscally 5-6 is the same, and atleast for me easier to spot. High = Kills, low = repells.

Makes sense. Completely arbitrary. 5 and 6 would work just fine. I agree.

Torrent wrote:
I think your bonuses could easily come into play here. A Tank unit can kill on 5-6, but Infantry can only kill on a 6. Or the flipside, a Tank Unit can only be killed with an opposing 6, but an Infantry can be killed with a 5 or 6. You could also add a 'dead spot'. Frex, a roll of 1 would not be able to rout a Tank unit.

Again, I agree wholeheartedly. My change is this:

<br />
Each side rolls dice equal to the number of units in the area (up to a max of 5)<br />
note: Defenders receive one additional die for defense (up to max of 5 dice)</p>
<p>After rolling, the dice are compared</p>
<p>any Attacker dice and Defender dice that are matching are ignored (the shots have been blocked)</p>
<p>if any dice remain, the following hits are applied:</p>
<p>for rolls 1 - 4, the player may choose which opponent piece to "withdraw" or retreat to a neighboring territory.</p>
<p>for rolls 5 or 6, the player may choose which opponent piece to eliminate</p>
<p>The Following Exceptions Exist:</p>
<p>Armor may only be destroyed on a 6<br />
Armor may never be retreated on a 1<br />

Thoughts?

NetWolf
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Joined: 12/31/1969
Combat Resolution Question ...

I still don't like the idea of forcing opposing units to retreat. Perhaps you could simply remove them from active combat instead. It wouldn't force them from the square, but it would prevent that unit from continuing combat that engagement. (Assuming you'd have more than one round of fighting.)

erael
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Joined: 12/31/1969
Combat Resolution Question ...

Will people need to "target" armor? If I have 2 armor and 2 regular units does my opponent need to say he is targeting armor? Or is damage/withdrawal always inflicted by dice being allocated as efficiently as possible in hindsight? I.E., if my opponent rolls a 1, a 3, and a 6 can he force my 2 non-armor units to withdraw and kill an armor unit?

Rolling buckets of dice and having unit differentiation is a very dangerous game design feature, IMO.

At a higher level, I REALLY think that this combat system needs some "no effect" dice. It's far too deterministic/boring currently--larger side wins. And while they may suffer more actual losses, in order for that to be a disadvantage the erstwhile defender has to bring his units back into the space for another attack blah blah. You will get LOTS of dice rolled this way. I think you'd get the same feel but more tension with a 1-2 NE, 3-4 Hit, 5-6 Kill system where you roll once and the winner is the side with more H+K and each side loses units equal to opponent's Kills. Or something like that.

hawaiiirish
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Joined: 01/21/2009
Combat Resolution Question ...

Thank you all for the great responses...Hopefully, this example will help flesh out the rules a bit more:

In this example, BLUE is the active ("attacking") player. Orange is the "defending" player. Blue moves into an area controlled by Orange:

After all other moves are completed, combat occurs. In this example, BLUE rolls dice equal to the number of attackers (max 5) and Orange rolls 5 dice (4 defenders + 1 for defending). Ties are ignored (two 4's and one 3) and hits applied:

Orange scored a 1 and 5, which allows the defender to withdraw a single BLUE Inf (for the 1) and Eliminate a BLUE Inf. BLUE scored two withdraws: and opted to push back an ORANGE Arm and Inf:

Combat ends. ORANGE becomes the "active" player and is now positioned to counter-attack:

hawaiiirish
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Joined: 01/21/2009
Combat Resolution Question ...

I thought of one other thing, related to my example:

By assigning the hits as efficiently as possible, it opens interesting tactical decisions for the attacking/defending player. For instance, in the example above, Orange *could* select to use the "5" to disengage an armor and then use the "1" to disengage an Inf.

Instead, by committing the "5" to the causualty, he was forced to withdraw a non-armor piece (INF, in this case) (The "1" can not disengage an armor).

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