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distributing starting places

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johant
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Joined: 12/31/1969

Any suggestions on how to distribute starting places in a game.

Think of settlers, but there are more startingplaces, how could you distribute the startingplacing?

I have come up with an auction system, but i would like to have suggestions on alternatives.

Im afraid that my system is to complicated for the casual gamer and maybe to simple for hardcore gamers

Thanks

Nandalf
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Joined: 07/13/2009
distributing starting places

ive never had the pleasureof playing setters, but couldnt you use a bunch of cards and deal one to each player? or is it like, a random hex map? coz then im thinking the lame card idea wouldnt work lol
count the number of hexes around the edge, divide it between the players, and say it was 5... every 5th hex have that as a starting place, then randomly decide who was going where?

zaiga
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Joined: 12/31/1969
Re: distributing starting places

johant wrote:
Any suggestions on how to distribute starting places in a game.

Well, there are various ways of distributing starting places. It all depends on what you want to achieve. Do you want a quick setup, just to get the game going, and it doesn't really matter where players start out anyway? Or is the starting place strategically very important and is there a huge difference in quality between various starting locations? Do you want a different start up every time, to ensure variety, or is a less variable setup OK as well, or perhaps even more desirable?

The answers to these questions will probably give you an idea of what method of distributing the starting places you want.

Some examples. In San Marco players roll dice to place their initial cubes. This is totally random. This setup method ensures that the intial setup is different each time the game is played, and it is quick, but it doesn't give players any control over it. However, it's a fairly chaotic game, with a high degree of player interaction as well, so the exact starting location isn't hugely important for the balance of the game.

Puerto Rico's starting position (ie. what kind of plantation you start the game with) depends on the seating order. The player(s) last in the playing order receive a Corn plantation, instead of the less desirable Indigo plantation. This method is used to negate the slight advantage that players early in the player order have. It's a quick method, but players still don't have any control over it, so that small discrepancies in the quality of the starting position may bother advanced players.

Finally, you may choose a method where players have more or less control over their own starting position. In Wallenstein players have the option to draft their starting provinces. There's still a little bit of randomness to this method, because you are still restricted to what you can draft, but it gives a fair chunk of control to the players as well. Settlers' method of choosing the start positions for the villages falls into this category as well.

An even finer method would be auctioning off starting positions in some way or the other. This gives players a lot of control over where they may start. However, it does usually add a fair amount of complexity and length to a game, which you may not find desirable.

To sum it up:

Do you want something quick? Go with fixed positions, or with a random method.

Do you want something that makes each game start out differently? Go with a random, or semi-random method (ie. drafting).

Is the starting position strategically very important for the game? Go with fixed positions, or with an auction method.

Quote:
Im afraid that my system is to complicated for the casual gamer and maybe to simple for hardcore gamers

This is one of the trickiest tightropes to walk when designing a game. Sometimes simplifying a mechanic makes it more accesible for the casual gamer, but you might lose some strategic depth in the process. I think it is important to realize which mechanics are really crucial to the game, and which you can do without, or simplify radically without realize losing much strategic depth. It's surprising how often you can streamline things without really losing something for the hardcore gamer though, so just keep on looking for that perfect solution that satisfies both camps, because it does exist!

johant
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Joined: 12/31/1969
distributing starting places

Or is the starting place strategically important

and is there a (huge) difference in quality between various starting locations?

yes i would say so!

An even finer method would be auctioning off starting positions in some way or the other. This gives players a lot of control over where they may start. However, it does usually add a fair amount of complexity and length to a game, which you may not find desirable

auctioning! Thats exactly what i have done!

Do you want something that makes each game start out differently

Yes, as far as i could see i am going to achieve this with an auction togehter with the specific area cards that im using.

Isnt it a great advantage if the game supports different starting positions?

I have also come up with a more luckbased way of distributing the starting positions more suitet for familygamers. This means that the gaming group could decide which to chose from.

Thanks for your opinion, great (as always)

ACG
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Joined: 12/31/1969
distributing starting places

In my "Junkyard Wars" game, the first player would theoretically have a big advantage in that his workers (and if not the him, the second player) could manage to scoop up all of the pieces of junk in the area around the starting square. By the time players 5 and 6 come along, they won't have anything to pick up. If there is a big powerup nearby, it's all too likely that the first player will wind up with it.

Fortunately, the first player can't take advantage of that. Normally, each worker can move a maximum of 6 spaces during a player's turn. This is different, however, for the first move and the first move ONLY. The first player doesn't move at all, the second player moves 1 space, the third player 2, and so forth until the 6th player moves 5. This staggers the start to limit the first player's advantage.

In general, for the first move the nth player moves (n-1) spaces in 4-6 player games, 2*(n-1) spaces in 3 player games, and 3*(n-1) spaces in 2 player games.

ACG

larienna
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Joined: 07/28/2008
distributing starting places

In mah-jong, you use 4 tiles with each of the wind direction and 1 white dragon tile.

You shuffle the tile and deal a tile to all players. The players with the white dragon receive the 5th tile.

The seat where the player received the white dragon is now considered east.

All players will change place according to their wind direction tile. So the player with the east tile sit where the white dragons lies.

jwarrend
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Joined: 08/03/2008
distributing starting places

I don't think auctioning off start positions is, in general, a desirable solution. At a minimum, it introduces a learning curve, where new players won't really know what a "good" or "bad" initial position or bid is; and you force this upon them in the very first action of the game! So at a minimum, you should include a "fair" setup for first time players to be able to get into the game and get going. But here's the thing; why, then, wouldn't you just use the fair setup everytime?

Unless a game is explicitly an auction-based game, auctions, in my opinion, can be a sign of laziness on the designer's part -- they say "the designer couldn't be bothered to identify the relative value of these positions, so he's just going to let you balance the game for yourself".

Note that this is valid for a game a fixed board and fixed starting positions. For a game like Settlers, with variable setup each game, it may not be as possible to create a "fair" setup. Unfortunately, a game with a variable setup is going to have an even steeper learning curve for an auction mechanic. A different solution might be to ensure that the setup algorithm creates a balanced board, with no position being so much stronger than another that a Settlers-style approach could still be fair.

Good luck,

Jeff

johant
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Joined: 12/31/1969
distributing starting places

.."with no position being so much stronger than another that a Settlers-style approach could still be fair"

I could take the settlers approach but i dont like it!
The start up sequence is mostly about luck and it has a huge impact on the chances of winning. This wouldnt of cource be any better with an auction.

I am worried about the fact that first time players will have a rough ride figuring out about the good starting spots, (how good are they and how much should you pay for it)

In my game the starting places (i hope) will be fairly even distributed among the players with the specific bidding mechanic im using.

(Later in the game you arent limited to your starting position,there will be ways of expanding and using other players starting positions, but thats only details)

To sum it up

Your comments are very good and i will continue to work on my game to see if i could come up with something that adresses these issues.

I think im going to have an auction system togheter with alternative ways of distributing the starting places. Then its up to the players to decide how they want to play

johant
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Joined: 12/31/1969
number of starting positions

After some playtesting i noticed that i have to reduce the numbers of starting postions.

Im going to distribute 3 starting postions, i wonder if its worth the effort or possible to use an auction for these three?

as far as i can see it makes more sense the more s. postions that you want to distribute.

Edit:

It does work but i wonder if this way of distributing the starting positions is worth the effort! It makes the game longer but i am not sure if the game gets funnier or better!

I will have to playtest some more!

Lor
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Joined: 12/31/1969
distributing starting places

This is an excellent problem.

I'd agree with jwarrend on this, auctioning starting position or power ain't about the game, it feels tacked on. You really only have a few minutes at the beginning of a game to give your player something that will carry him or her into it in the proper mindset. If you initiate play with an auction, it really ought to be Monopoly, not the game you describe.

Quote:
I am worried about the fact that first time players will have a rough ride figuring out about the good starting spots, (how good are they and how much should you pay for it)

Maybe that's part of the game: something they should learn. The easy starting spots don't yield the richest payoff-- the harder to open with yield more, give it some balance and let them learn it as they go. Experienced players know the value of Boardwalk over Baltic.

Whatever the project, when I run into problems like this, I step back and look at the theme, mounting and aims of the game a bit abstractly. Something organic which can be wired in often emerges from looking at the project that way. As Dr. Land used to say at Polaroid: "The solution is in the room."

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