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Hidden Card Rules

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larienna
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There one was of my NCCG design where each player had a custom deck of 15 tarot size cards. The cards can be played on the table at various location. Each card has a different effect at each location. There is also a few other ways to use a card. In general, there should be around 5 unique rules for each card according to position or the way of playing it. There is also 1 or 2 ways to use the card that does not require unique rules. And there is also 1 or 2 situation where the cards are face down.

The goal of the game would have been to use the cards placed on the table to attack your opponent's cards. Now I am not sure, but since the game did not have any random element I tought that it would have been too much obvious that the opposing player was going to use this card combined with another card ability against that cards since most of the time you use face up cards on the table ( so no surprise).

So I tought of using a hidden rule system. Which mean that the rules of each card does not appear on the card but only in an instruction book that cannot be viewed by the players ( before using the card ). This will force you to learn your cards, and the cards of your opponents. It will make sure that the tactic your opponent will use is not obvious. It will also create some situation where your opponent does not know what your card can do, or that you do not know yourself all the abilities of your card cards. So you might not use the unique rules of the card.

1 - Now do you think that the hidden rule technique is a good idea? (Probably not newbie friendly and might need a referee for checking the rule book )

2- Since the cards has many possible usage, do you think that the situation, where the opponent strategy is too much obvious ( no surprise), will really happen.

Hedge-o-Matic
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Hidden Card Rules

Well, there are good things and bad things to be said about the use of hidden information in games. But in this case, I'd have to say there are more downsides thatn upsides. Consider:

1.) Opacity leading to Analysis Paralysis: Players would simply read the card book, flipping back and forth, unable to make a decision while their opponant's cards are so inscrutiable. This same effect would occur while looking at your own cards, especially at first, when you want players to be having maximum fun.

2.) The use of cards seems pretty complex already, even given that everyone knowns what they do. If your cards already have so many options, the game may be little clearer, even with full use printed on the card. Given that they will presumably combine in unusual ways, this will provide more than enough difficulty in forecasting the opposition's plans.

3.) Cards are inherently random, if drawn face down from a deck. This will further limit the player's ability to predict their opponant's actions.

I'd say be careful with the complexity you ask your players to juggle. Too much, and they'll tune out their opponant's play simply because it takes so much concentration to formulate their own. This is a recipe for multi-player solitaire.

jwarrend
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Hidden Card Rules

I don't think the idea "works" in the sense of driving interesting decisions; if you play cards not knowing what they're going to do, then how do you choose which card to play? Everything is a crap shoot.

On the other hand, I think the idea of having cards reference a special "paragraph book" that describes the effect of the cards could be a very interesting mechanic. This could be particularly appropriate for allowing a random interaction of various attack and defense types, for example, ie, the entry you'd reference is determined by a combination of the cards that both players played.

So, I think there's potential for the idea, but I think that the context you're suggesting using it in could make the game too difficult to play. On the other hand, it might work fine; try it and see!

-Jeff

sedjtroll
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Re: Hidden Card Rules

Larienna wrote:
1 - Now do you think that the hidden rule technique is a good idea? (Probably not newbie friendly and might need a referee for checking the rule book )

I assume you mean that all players have access to the instruction book at all times, not that you play cards without knowing their effect (I think Jeff interpretted that the other way).

Hiding this information does not solve the problem that you mentioned - that your opponent will know what you might do. They can just look in the book.

On the other hand, if you mean that each player has a book and you can't look in your opponent's book... then that's just as bad because once you do learn the cards you'll know the info. Until then it might be neat, like Stratego or LotR Confrontation, but I think it's a poor solution to your problem. Which brings me to your point #2:

Quote:
2- Since the cards has many possible usage, do you think that the situation, where the opponent strategy is too much obvious ( no surprise), will really happen.

No, I don't think there's a problem in the first place. If I understand you correctly, the cards have a different use depending on where yu play them, and once played, everyone knows what that card can do.

However before it's played, the cards have a possible 5 or 6 different uses, which gives a lot of flexibility. This flexibility is cut down as the board develops and some of the uses get 'taken away' or made trivial.

I think this is a good thing, not a bad thing. And with all the versatility, I don't think it's possible for plays to be 'too obvious'.

In Chess nobody complains that the plays are obvious, and in that game all the possible moves are transparent. :)

- Seth

seo
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Hidden Card Rules

After a second reading of this thread (first time I just didn't got it), I thought of something that might or might not suit your goal, but here it goes:

Each card has several different posible uses, each identified with a different color. Let's say there are six possible colors. Each player also has six color selection cards which they keep hidden from the other players. Each player places one of his color cards in fron of him, face down so that his rivals still don't know which color it is. The color of this card determines which of the possible meanings of the cards he is using.

This way you have the info available for all players to take their decisions, yet you can't know fo sure what your rivals are playing, so you are forced to do some extra deductive work.

If you want more flexibility, you can use just 4 of the six colors in each card, so you can play cards without your color of choice just to add some false clues. Changing your color of choice during the game will gve players the optionf for an emergency "plan B" when they think they need it.

Seo

larienna
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Hidden Card Rules

For the reference book, if you want to play the hard way, you can hide it to all players. This is why you need a referee to determine what effect occurs. The idea is that you have to learn the cards to play. And the opposite player can have a surprise effect he has not yet used.

Now just to give you a list of the usages I come up so far so that you can have a better look of the game's idea :

First there is the position, which can be in diferrent place around the deck

-Front of the deck : Protect all other cards
-Each Side of deck : Used for attack
-back of the deck : Channel ability in the attack
-Top of the deck : Seal the deck but gives special power/ability

All the placement aboves has unique rules. Now there is 3 other way to use the cards :

- Flip up effect : Place a card face down (location indicated above), flip up in reaction to activate ability.
- Card battle : A card duel another card, played face down, highest card strength wins. ( no unique rules )
- Sacrifice : You destroy your card which create a major effect on all players including yourself.

There is always a cycling of the cards you have, so played cards can go back in your deck and be played later. But destroyed cards are removed from the game.

You have also some tactical manuvers like fliping down played cards to deactivate them but give you the chance to benifit from a flip effect. Or rotate your card position around the deck. Which mean for example the front card goes on the side and the other card circle around changing your defense and attack configuration.

As you can see, there could be many move possible, so maybe the strategy has now become really unpredictable. ( probably more predictable in the first version of the game). As for the hidden rules, the surprise effect is cool, but since we are playing a board game, not a video game, well it can hinder the playability.

jwalduck
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Hidden Card Rules

Quote:
The idea is that you have to learn the cards to play.

I don't think this is a workable objective. You want to make it uncertain what cards do - but instead of actually making what the cards do uncertain their effect is simply obfuscated.

* The learning curve on the game in intentially being made very steep. Will a player actually sit through the early games to get a hang of it?

* Players with some experience with the game will have a huge advantage over those with none.

* After the players have played enough to remember what the cards actually do (which is what you expect them to do) then the problem you are trying to avoid returns. If it is a real problem with the game then players will transition from being in a steep learning curve to playing a broken game.

Uncertainly in this game will come from not knowing what your oponent will do and how that will effect the optimal choices in your own play. From your description each card has 6 possible effects. If I have 5 cards in my hand then that represents 30 options. (My opponent has 30 ways to respond). As the game progresses not all of those 30 options will be optimal and as a card is played the options it provides may be reduced. Thats not necessarily a bad thing - People can only typically hold 5-7 distinct items/choices in their mind at once.

Chess has totally transparent moves. There are 20 options for the opening move. The number of options typically increases as the game progresses with more peices having more possible moves. Chess is a deep strategic game despite being totally transparent because of the number of options.

Fhizban
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Hidden Card Rules

Interesting Thread. I have (in the meaning of the word) two cents to throw into the discussion, the one is on-topic and the other off-topic:

on-topic:
Personally I dislike the idea of using hidden cards altogether. It just introduces too many complicated extra rules, makes the rules more complex or introduces too many exploits to make hidden cards enjoyable. but there is a single game mechanics i just love to see in a game, concerning hidden cards:

as long as the hidden card stays face down it is inactive. it has no use, cannot be target of any effect and just sits there. but: there is some kind of "event" or "activation effect" written on the hidden card, that makes the card get revealed. then, and only then the card gets activated and all of its effects come to life. this way no one can exploit the hidden card. the owner of the card knows when a situation arises where he can activate the card. the worst thing that could happen is that the owner forgets to activate the card in the right situation (his fault...)

off-topic:
okay back to the post when Larienna mentioned that the cards are placed around the deck. I like that approach very much and in fact I came up with a similar idea some time ago regarding a "castle siege fantasy cardgame" a while ago. the deck represents your castle and the cards placed around it are the different flanks or wings you can protect and your opponent can attack. the otherwise so weared out winning condition of depleting your opponents deck gets revitalised (in my humble oppinion) if you imagine that you defeat your opponent (destroy his castle) by depleting his deck (smashing all of his remaining resources). and doing so you have have the choice of attacking from one or more different directions (aka: flanks/front/rear). So you can attack the deck from the front or the side, and you have to protect your own decks flanks/sides/rear to prevent loosing all remaining cards. just a thought!

-Fhizban

Qundar
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Hidden Card Rules

Hi,

I'm thinking of having a similar idea of the hidden cards in a game I'm starting to come up with (called High Risk, basically just Risk on steroids), and I like the idea of Fhizban mentions of putting the hidden card face down, and it is inactive until a certain event happens, than (if the player remembers it), all its effects come to life. This just might work for me, thanks!
Anyway, sorry Larienna, but I've got nothing to add beyond that I agree with everyone here, that, from what I understand of your game, it would be too much of a learning curve to have to learn the cards (and once you did, it would be too easy to win over newbies). And that having all those choices available wouldn't make it "obvious" in a bad way, but it would be just fine and dandy, as the chess example given. (BTW, I counted 34 possiblie openning moves in chess.)

Live long and prosper, Qundar out.

OutsideLime
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Hidden Card Rules

Quote:
(BTW, I counted 34 possiblie openning moves in chess.)

I count only 20 opening moves in chess.

White must go first, and can move only pawns or knights. Each pawn (8 of them) can move either 1 or 2 spaces forward. That's 16 possible moves. Each knight (2 of them) can L-hook forward either right or left. That's 4 more moves. 20 total.

~Josh

Qundar
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Hidden Card Rules

Hi,

Oh, you're right. Ha, I miscounted there (quite badly I must say). Must've been late at night when I wrote that, I was quite tired yesterday. Oops. Oh well.

Live long and prosper, Qundar out.

OutsideLime wrote:
Quote:
(BTW, I counted 34 possiblie openning moves in chess.)

I count only 20 opening moves in chess.

White must go first, and can move only pawns or knights. Each pawn (8 of them) can move either 1 or 2 spaces forward. That's 16 possible moves. Each knight (2 of them) can L-hook forward either right or left. That's 4 more moves. 20 total.

~Josh

jwalduck
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Joined: 09/06/2011
Hidden Card Rules

Its comforting to know I have not been getting the rules of chess wrong all these years :-)

Qundar
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Hidden Card Rules

Hi,

Ha, yeah, that probably is comforting.

Live long and prosper, Qundar out.

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