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Miniatures Wargame Rules

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Anonymous

I have written a complete fantasy/SF world for my miniatures wargame.
But I'm still having trouble creating the combat stats for my figs.
I was hoping to use a d10.

This is what I had until now:

Characters have all the basic (warhammer and others) traits (initiative, movement, weapon range,...) and an attack value.

These models will need a point system (money value that the models in a unit cost, so there can be a player with a big unit of weaklings against one superman and both sides have an equal chance of winning).

But I suck at math and don't know where I can find any examples of this.

zaiga
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Miniatures Wargame Rules

I don't think you need a degree in math to be able to design board games. Any specific questions or things you need help with? Otherwise I advise you to put design ideas such as these in a journal entry as per the new forum rules.

stark1261
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Miniatures Wargame Rules

What you can do is set a base cost such as this basline costs ten points for

M=5
Aim=5
Strength of Weapon= 5
Range=5
Armor Save= 8+

Then add a point when ever you increase your statline, or take away when you decrease. What you will find through playtesting is which stats increase exponentionally (i.e. weapon strength of 7 is worth a lot more than 2 points, so then you increase by 4 instead.) This is the balancing part which is done thorugh vigorous playtesting.

A good way to simple check math is to use your dice to check Probability. I.E. a 6+ to hit, hits 1/2 the time and a 6+ to wound, wounds 1/2 the time so multiplying the the two fractions (1/2)(1/2) = (1/4)means that you successfull wound 1/4 the time on average.

Hope this helps

Anonymous
Another post.

Thank you.

Anonymous
Bleh.

My post is not clear.

Maybe this is a real question:

If soldier A wishes to kill soldier B. He has to roll 1d10+attack and the target (soldier B) then rolls 1d10+defence, the attacker kills the target if his total roll is higher than the defender.

If +1 attack costs 10$. How much would the +1 defence cost? =

I would say: +1 defence (or -1attack for soldierA) also costs 10$.

But how much does the d10 cost? It needs to cost something, or everyone gets d10's for nothing. Should it cost 10$ (as a minimum base cost)?

zaiga
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Miniatures Wargame Rules

Why not give a D10 for free for every soldier, and then paying $ to get a + modifier on the die roll?

Anonymous
Hmm.

If a model has 1d10.
It must also be possible to kill that model.
The more models a player has, the harder he is to kill.

Models should have a base-cost because:

1) They must be killed in order to win the game.
2) They can kill other models (if they can roll 1d10).

OutsideLime
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Miniatures Wargame Rules

If you start charging $ for every single action a player can take, the game might get bogged down in the economics of it, and the tabulating of action costs. Better perhaps to keep the basic 1d10 action free for all, and bonuses may be purchased prior to rolling...

a triangular increase on bonus purchasing might be in order..

+1 costs 1
+2 costs 3
+3 costs 6
+4 costs 10

that depends on how badly you want to restrict players from "buying" their success. There are other price increase structures that you could use as well..

I must admit I am not entirely clear on how your game system works, so forgive me if this doesn't apply.

~Josh

Anonymous
close this thread please

LOL. Well, it works like any other miniatures wargame. Has nobody here played things like Warhammer?

You have a list of options that you can buy. = how many soldiers and what those soldiers can do. Their abbilities (the bonus on their roll) cost points and so does their movement... .. .

The problem is that not all players will field armies (made up of models) of the same size. Some will have a huge number of soldiers (that have lousy bonusses) and some will have a small number of supersoldiers. Those are the possibilities.

So my question is how much one +1 bonus would cost on 1d10. But it's a gamble.. so the mod can destroy this thread if he wants to.

zaiga
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Miniatures Wargame Rules

I must admit I'm not familiar with Warhammer, but from what I gather from your posts the ideas is as follows:

Before the start of the game players have a number of "points" to spend, with which they can build their army. They can either create an army with a lot of inexpensive "weak" unit, or with a few expensive "strong" units.

Combat in the game is a one-on-one thing (one unit against one unit), where the unit who rolls highest on a D10 (after adding and substracting modifiers) wins the battle and kills the other unit.

Units have other characteristics as well, such as movement, weapon range, etc.

The simple answer is that there is no magic formula to calculate a +1 modifier on a die roll, especially because units have other characteristics as well, such as movement, weapon range, etc. How much would a +1 modifier on speed cost? Hard to tell, because it depends on the context of your game. Movement could be something very important, or it could be something minor. Maybe it even depends on the scenario you are playing.

The best thing you can do is create a few basic units, assign them some costs and then just playtest it. Undoubtly the units will be unbalanced at first, but you can easily tweak such numbers after playtesting.

Once you have those initial few units balanced, you can add other units. It will probably become easier to balance these units, because by now you know what the numbers ought to be, more or less.

That said, here is some of the basic math you are looking for:

Suppose a basic unit, with no modifiers, costs 5 points. Let's call this unit "soldier". A soldier fighting another soldier has a 50% of killing the other unit. Assuming a tie kills both units, that soldier has a 50% chance of getting killed, as well.

Now, there's another unit, called "commando". A commando has a +1 on his die roll. A commando fighting another commando still has 50% chance of killing the other commando. A commando fighting a soldier has a 64% of killing the soldier. The commando has 45% chance of getting killed by the soldier*.

Now, how does this translate into "points"? A +1 on his die roll has given the commando a +14% chance of killing the other unit, and a -5% of getting killed. This basically translates into a unit that is 19% better. Since the D10 itself costs 5 points, it would seem logical to let a +1 modifier cost 1 point (20% of 5 point).

As you can see, this is not perfect because the unit costs 20% more while he's only 19% better. Maybe this is not a huge deal in the grand scheme of things, but maybe it is. It is probably a good idea to differentiate the units in more ways than just modifiers on die rolls, to make their balance more opaque, and to allow for more variety.

The math:

<br />
Commando killing soldier (assuming tie kills both):</p>
<p>COM  SOL           Percentage<br />
1    2 or lower    20%<br />
2    3 or lower    30%<br />
3    4 or lower    40%<br />
...<br />
9    10 or lower   100%<br />
10   10 or lower   100%<br />
                   ----<br />
Adds up to         640<br />
Divide by 10       64,0%</p>
<p>Soldier killing commando (assuming tie kills both):</p>
<p>SOL  COM           Percentage<br />
1    -             0% (commando always wins)<br />
2    1             10%<br />
3    2 or lower    20%<br />
...<br />
9    8 or lower    80%<br />
10   9 or lower    90%<br />
                   ----<br />
Adds up to         450<br />
Divide by 10       45,0%<br />

zaiga
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Miniatures Wargame Rules

Just for fun, here's another one. The unit "ninja" (every game has to have a ninja in it, right?) has a +2 modifier on the dice roll:

<br />
Ninja killing soldier (assuming tie kills both):</p>
<p>NIN  SOL           Percentage<br />
1    3 or lower    30%<br />
2    4 or lower    40%<br />
3    5 or lower    50%<br />
4    6 or lower    60%<br />
5    7 or lower    70%<br />
6    8 or lower    80%<br />
7    9 or lower    90%<br />
8    10 or lower   100%<br />
9    10 or lower   100%<br />
10   10 or lower   100%<br />
                   ----<br />
Adds up to         720<br />
Divide by 10       72,0%</p>
<p>Soldier killing ninja (assuming tie kills both):</p>
<p>SOL  NIN           Percentage<br />
1    -             0% (ninja always wins)<br />
2    -             0% (ninja always wins)<br />
3    1 or lower    10%<br />
4    2 or lower    20%<br />
5    3 or lower    30%<br />
6    4 or lower    40%<br />
7    5 or lower    50%<br />
8    6 or lower    60%<br />
9    7 or lower    70%<br />
10   8 or lower    80%<br />
                   ----<br />
Adds up to         360<br />
Divide by 10       36,0%<br />

As you can see, the ninja has a +22% chance of killing a soldier, and a -14% chance of getting killed by a soldier, which means he is 36% better. This would translate into a point cost of roughly 2 points (40%). As you can see the progression is not completely linear. A +1 gives you a unit that is 19% better, a +2 gives you a unit that is "only" 36% better.

Food for thought... I hope this what somewhat helpful.

Infernal
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Miniatures Wargame Rules

A best/Worst list can help. All you do is list each unit type and list what it is the best at and the worst at (compared to the other units). Also include in this best/worst list the unit that is the best at versatility and the worst at versatility (can be used in more situations).

Also make sure that each unit has compensating factors (ie it may move the fastes but it can only attack at close range,etc). One compensating factor is price (which is what you seem to be after) but price is only 1 factor and to make the stratigic variety for units you will need to have more than 1 factor. This will also help ballance units and make costing them easier as you will be able to see which units are better than others.

Exact pricing is difficult but a relitive prices is the best place to start (eg unit A should be priced higher then unit B, but unit C should be higher than unit A).

You should be able to work out the relitive strengths of the units, and how much stronger they are (ig Unit A can beat 2 or 3 of unit B in a straight fight, etc).

Now based on this infomation you can start to place more exact prices (eg Unit A sould be 2-3 times as expensive as unit B, but remember to take into account the compensating factors).

Sorry if this is a little jumbled but I'm not concentrating at the moment and this is off the top of my head (but I do use a similar system when working out costs in my games). Hope it helps.

Anonymous
LALLA

The goal would be for people to create their unit.
Exaùmple: "I want 20cm move and a combat 4...)

So relative values can't work.

Infernal
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Miniatures Wargame Rules

They can, it just will take a bit more work, and it wont be obvious. The best way is to break down the combat and work on each "attribute" in the combat and how it effects the other attributes (a statistical analysis would work).

The difference is that with premade units then you would have descrete data points to use in the analysis, if you want to have a continuum then you will need to work out the balances for the whole range.

The problem with this approach (and I think you can see it too) is that if you get the costing wrong then the players will find they most effective unit attribute configureations and only use them (eliminating all your hard work in balancing).

I had this problem with solar flare. I found that having the shield's power costs increase as they do allowed the opponent to drain them, where as if they were the same as the laser then the defending player could just keep dumping power in to the shields and cause a stalemate. I faced a similar problem with the power generation and had to increase the purchase cost of it.

zaiga
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Miniatures Wargame Rules

Neontek wrote:
The goal would be for people to create their unit.
Exaùmple: "I want 20cm move and a combat 4...)

So relative values can't work.

This will be very tough to do I think. It is likely that you fail to make the system of distributing points perfectly balanced. That would result in one particular unit being the "best" unit, and it would be pointless to create other units as they would always be inferior to the best unit.

If you somehow do find a perfectly balanced system of distributing points, then all units would be equally strong no matter how you would distribute the points, and the whole system would be pointless.

What you could do is try to find a sort of metagame system where unit ability A is handy to have against units with ability B, but useless against units of type C (think rock-scissors-paper). Then your choice of unit abilities would depend on what you think your opponent will come up with.

Anonymous
Miniatures Wargame Rules

Hmm.

Each model (soldier whatever) rolls 1d10. And must roll their Combat or lower to kill the target (enemy).

Kamal. = combat 6. = 2 (abbility to kill others and face that it must be killed) +6 .

Kamal costs 8$.

----------------------

Scorpion. = combat 0. = 2 + 0.

Scorpion costs 2$.

Does this look correct?

Does Kamal have four times as much chance of killing Scorpion? No. He can't even kill because he has to roll 0 or lower, wich is impossible on 1d10.

Next example:

I will now do the same without the base - cost for the model.

Scorpion now has 2 combat (0+2combat) and has 20% chance of killing the enemy. Kamal has 80% chance= he does have 4 times as much chance.

So no base-cost.

And now penalties. If Scorpion has 1 armour, that would be a -10% penalty for Kamal. = but also -10% chance for Scorpion to hit Kamal.

The new problem:

If I have one Kamal (that model can roll once each turn) and you have two Scorpions (same price), who can both shoot once each turn.

Kamal can't kill as many troops as the Scorpions each turn. = there should be a base cost.

If I'm not mistaken, the second scorpion would give 25% more chance to kill Kamal. And should cost 2,5points more than the original Sorpion.

Base cost of 1? (Kamal would cost 1+6=7$) and the two scorpions would cost (1+3=4)+(1+3=4) 8$.

zaiga
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Miniatures Wargame Rules

Neontek wrote:
The new problem:

If I have one Kamal (that model can roll once each turn) and you have two Scorpions (same price), who can both shoot once each turn.

Kamal can't kill as many troops as the Scorpions each turn. = there should be a base cost.

If I'm not mistaken, the second scorpion would give 25% more chance to kill Kamal. And should cost 2,5points more than the original Sorpion.

Base cost of 1? (Kamal would cost 1+6=7$) and the two scorpions would cost (1+3=4)+(1+3=4) 8$.

A scorpion has 20% chance of killing the target. Kamal has 80% chance of killing the target, but costs 4 times as much. Does this mean that one Kamal is just as good as four Scorpions?

You cannot just add up the percentages of each Scorpion, because that would mean that 5 Scorpions would have a 100% chance of hitting the target, which is clearly not true.

Think of the dice rolls as separate happenings. You roll the first die, and if it hits you can stop, because it doesn't matter what the other rolls will be. If it doesn't hit, you roll the second die to see if that one hits and so forth.

This leads to the following formula:
(0,8^0 * 0,2) + (0,8^1 * 0,2) + (0,8^2 * 0,2) + (0,8^3 * 0,2) = 0,2 + 0,16 + 0,128 + 0,1024 = 0,59

As you can see, even with four Scorpions, you have less than 80% chance of hitting the target. Worse than Kamahl which costs 4 times as much.

However, as you noted, units can only hit once per turn, and it only takes one hit to kill them. This means that it is likely that Kamal could kill one Scorpion, and he has a fair chance of living another round. If he does, he still has 80% chance of killing a Scorpion, while the Scorpions chances of hitting Kamal has worsened, because there are now three Scorpions left instead of four.

The math for it is beyond my abilities, however, in the long run I suspect having four Scorpions with a 20% hit chance is better than one Kamal with a 80% hit chance. An extreme example will make this clear. Suppose you have 100 critters with a 1% hit chance and one monster with a 100% hit chance. The monster might survive a few rounds and chop down a few critters, but eventually the critters will roll that lucky one and kill the monster.

What it boils down to is that you have to assign a certain point value for a unit having one hitpoint. As all units in your game have one hitpoint this would be the same as assigning a base cost to them. Of course, now your question is what that should be, but as I said, that kind of math is beyond my abilities :)

Anonymous
What are you counting here?

This leads to the following formula:
(0,8^0 * 0,2) + (0,8^1 * 0,2) + (0,8^2 * 0,2) + (0,8^3 * 0,2) = 0,2 + 0,16 + 0,128 + 0,1024 = 0,59

What are you calculating here? Did you use the chance of success or the chance of failure. '(If I understood previous posts, it should be failure for some reason.)

Yes. So the +0,16 (wich is 16% more chance) is something like 1point. (+1 point already paid by the first scorpion.) So any further scorpions are overcosted for the percentage that they are worth.
BUT
after some time WILL hit and kill the superman.

As you said: I don't know what the probability is of that happening.

GAME:

If we keep this formula: 1point base cost.
It would be logical for all players to buy at least one superguy. One Kamal. Followed by a huge number of smaller guys that can deflect the blows from the superguy right?

zaiga
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Re: What are you counting here?

Neontek wrote:
This leads to the following formula:
(0,8^0 * 0,2) + (0,8^1 * 0,2) + (0,8^2 * 0,2) + (0,8^3 * 0,2) = 0,2 + 0,16 + 0,128 + 0,1024 = 0,59

What are you calculating here? Did you use the chance of success or the chance of failure. '(If I understood previous posts, it should be failure for some reason.)

I'm sorry that wasn't clear. Four Scorpions together with a hit chance of 20% each, have a 59% chance of hitting Kamal together.

Anonymous
MATH

Would this formula help in any way?

Basically, you're dealing with two variables: D (the number of dice rolled) and C (the % chance of success on that particular die. The value if any given mix of non-additive dice (each considered individually) is merely (100/(d x 10)) x (total c)

I got it from someone. But don't really understand how it works.

2 Scorpion of 2combat. (20%) would have a value of:
(100/(2 x 10)) x (20) = 100 ? (or should that 20 be 0,2?) --> not 100 but 1.

1 Kamal of 4combat. (40%) would have a value of:
(100/(1 x 10)) x (40) = 400 ? (or should that be 0,4?) --> not 400 but 4.

(While it looks correct, I think it uses a different system: where all scorpions would die if Kamal hits and vice verca for it to be balanced.)

stark1261
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Miniatures Wargame Rules

Neontek-
I have played Warhammer and I understand what you are getting at. Games workshop does a long and very serious testing phase to find the relative "worth" of each unit/troop type. This balancing is what you will need to do for your game. I know in Warhammer (not 40k) they have the base statline for 5 points. My advice would to creat your own base statline and then any time you reduce an ability lower the cost, and vice versa. Then test, test, test...

Your situation it is really hard to look at an arbitray bonus for one skill by itself, they need to be view as a whole.

Anonymous
Miniatures Wargame Rules

Just a quick word on making a minis game balanced. The easy way is to start with one model. This model could be considered the average of everything in the game, give it stats and abilities and a point cost then fight it against another model and use the first models point cost as a high low mark to find out what the new model should cost. Keep on doing this fighting everything against everything else that came before it progressively and a whole balanced game should emerge. You will probably need to adjust point costs or abilities along the way

If your game is larger, like say a whole army fighting another army this way wont work instead you will need to fight armies against armies. This means that along with possible army to army imbalances you will also have to balance player choices in each army it’s self.

In the end points costs will never make a game totally balanced. But your main goal is to give each player a feeling that they can win and make sure each player has a good number of choices that they feel are equal and fair.

As for math equations I don’t use them, the most interesting minis games have models have special abilities that can never be calculated.

larienna
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Miniatures Wargame Rules

If both attacker has the same average offense and defense, you might end up with the bug that no damage occurs too often. So you could try to increase the attack over the defense a little bit.

Infernal
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Miniatures Wargame Rules

One solution is to have a standard unit type. This unit is used for every single troop, and has a base stat list and values.

All that you now do is change (add) special abilities. eg Can charge at double normal movement, has long range shots, heavy armor, etc.

When you create the special abilities, work a scissors/paper/rock method into them (this can be done with more than 3 abilities). As these abilities only work against each other then they can have a similar cost. The cost will change depending on the style of game (heavy cover will reduce the effectiveness of range attacks, where as open ground will increase its effectiveness and also increase the effectiveness of chargeing).

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