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Tile setup

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Anonymous

I am looking for some ideas on how to elegantly solve the following problem:
The game board is made up of tiles that create a maze. This maze should be uncovered during the game by initially placing the tiles upside-down leaving the players in the dark what the maze looks like. As the game progresses players flip individual tiles over and towards the end will be able to see and navigate the entire maze. The complicated part is that I do not want the board layout to be random. In order to do this I could label each tile on the back, and then provide a setup manual which tells you to put tile #27 top left, then #13 to the right of it, etc. For the next round they might have to put #9 in the top left corner and #5 next to it. So the setup will not be identical every time you play the game.

There are two problems with this approach that come to my mind:
a) Comparing numbers during setup could be tedious and maybe symbols or some jigsaw like locking mechanism might make it easier/faster
b) If some of the maze tiles contains traps, players might remember the label on the back and avoid flipping over these tiles, thus spoiling the surprise.

I thought about printing the labels in light blue so that you'll need (transparent red) "spyglasses" to set them up and can't see them during regular gameplay. Again this adds to the annoyance factor during setup.

Any suggestions on how to make people arrange tiles in a certain order
without it being too cumbersome and without players knowing what to expect from a certain tile ? It seems these goals are mutually exclusive..

jwalduck
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Joined: 09/06/2011
Tile setup

It sounds like you need to generate a "Perfect Maze" on the fly. I think it could be done: players moving around the board can expand unexplored tiles of the board and expand the maze.

Here is a perfect maze algorithim stolen from this page. I have added some thoughts on how you might do this.

Quote:
1. Start with a rectangular grid. Mark each cell in the grid unvisited. (Unvisted cells are the tiles still face down)

2. Pick a random cell in the grid and mark it visited. This is the current cell. (The current cell is the one with the current players peice in it)

3. From the current cell, pick a random direction (north, south, east, or west). If (1) there is no cell adjacent to the current cell in that direction, or (2) if the adjacent cell in that direction has been visited, then that direction is invalid, and you must pick a different random direction. (You could use dice)

3a. If all directions are invalid, pick a different random visited cell in the grid and start this step over again. (In this case just have the player move though the already revealed maze)

4. Let's call the cell in the chosen direction C. Create a corridor between the current cell and C, and then make C the current cell. Mark C visited. (Flip the tile and move the players' peice there)

5. Repeat steps 3 and 4 until all cells in the grid have been visited. (Have the next player take their turn)

The major thing with this algorithim is that you knock down walls to create paths as you move from room to room. I am not sure how you could do that with tiles as the number and configuration of exits from a room could change several times before the map resolves.

Maybe the board you play on has peices representing the walls between the tiles.

Anonymous
Tile setup

Thank you for your response. I have found the article and your notes interesting to read, but it does not address the problem I am concerned with. Basically I am looking for a way to make players set up the maze that is easy /quick on the one hand, yet complex so as to avoid premature knowledge on the part of whoever sets up the maze. So it's not really about game mechanics, but about tile/piece design. (Of course if a suitable piece design does not exist I might have to abandon the underlying mechanics, but that would be a last resort).

Let's assume this was an RPG. The dungeon master would set up the dungeon and know all it's corridors and then the players would stumble along blindly, discovering the dungeon as they go along, without knowing where the pits & monsters are. Now try removing the dungeon master but keeping the exploration of a preset dungeon intact. Is there any way to do this ?

Back to the original maze idea: if we had a tiny 3x3 grid, then my rule book might say that for the first round you are to set up numbered tiles like this:
1 2 3
4 5 6
7 8 9
Players flip the tiles around, then move their pawns through the revealed maze and finish the round. Going back to the rule book they find that the second round setup is like this:
6 1 8
5 2 3
4 9 7
Again this could be an interesting maze, but an observant player might have noticed in the first round that the tile labelled #3 contained a deadly monster. Obviously this time around they will try to avoid flipping tile #3 and thus making the monster very unhappy.

My question then is: how can I tell players to lay out tiles in a specific order but at the same time make it hard for them to memorize the good & bad tiles from previous rounds ?

The secondary question is: is there a better marking system than numbering the tiles ? Most people (board game geeks excluded) are bad with numbers. Maybe some symbols or colors would make it easier and more fun to lay out the grid ?

jwalduck
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Tile setup

If tile #3, or marked with a certain symbol, always has the same monster on it then players will quickly learn to avoid going to that tile.

You could try this:
Each "Monster tile" has a list of numbers on it. For a monster to appear when this tile is flipped there has to be an adjacent tile with a number in the list. Different adjacent numbers might spawn different monsters. This way you can program the appearance of monsters by how you layout the numbers in the grid. Players could still memorise the combinations that make monsters turn up but it would be much harder.

Other options could be:

Remove the location of monsters from the tiles altogether. The map is constructed to a certain plan then somehow monsters are randomly attached to it. Ie I flip a tile, see it is a monster tile, draw a card from the monster deck

Have several copies of tile #3 all showing the same corridors but some with monsters, some with treassure, some blank.

Have a player other than the active one initiate monster attacks (this would only work in adversorial play)

TruMobius
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Joined: 12/31/1969
Tile setup

Maybe your looking at the problem wrong instead of having a board made out that (somewhat pre-contemplated) contains all the map perhaps the solution is to go the route that Zombies! took.

In essence zombies! was a maze that the players built on the fly by taking a card out and placing it in the place that was just discoverd

quite elegent in my opinion

Zzzzz
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Tile setup

Another idea (that hit me as I read jwalduck's comments), create multiple versions of each tile. For instance, create 10 versions of tile 3. Then during setup players would randomly select one of the versions of tile 3.

Obviously this still allows for players to "learn" what every version of tile 3 might be over time, but increases the "unknown" factor a multiple of X (where X is the number of different tile versions). Additionally you could consider combining this idea and jwalduck's idea of

Quote:

You could try this:
Each "Monster tile" has a list of numbers on it. For a monster to appear when this tile is flipped there has to be an adjacent tile with a number in the list. Different adjacent numbers might spawn different monsters. This way you can program the appearance of monsters by how you layout the numbers in the grid. Players could still memorise the combinations that make monsters turn up but it would be much harder.

Another idea, and I am not sure it is still available to the public or if I have the right name, but attempt to find something call Dungeon Deck. It was a card based random dungeon creator. It worked pretty good. It might give you ideas on how to create more generic dungeon tile layouts, and thus remove the need to label the tiles, since in theory any combination of tiles "should work"

Zzzzz
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Tile setup

I think I found a link to the product I remember. I saw it a GenCON a few years back, not sure this link will give you enough info though. But you might be able to google it more and find more information that might help you out in the long run.

link : http://www.gamers-rule.com/products.html

Verseboy
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Joined: 12/31/1969
Tile setup

Another avenue might be to make the maze tiles distinct from what I'll call the monster tiles. Think in terms of Settlers. You have the different island hexes and then you have the lettered pip tiles. They get paired randomly and differently every time. In your game it might be possible to have the maze tiles, either numbered or color-coded. They're all face down, and they have a small monster chip on top of it, also face down. For that matter, the monster chips could be drawn from a bag every time a new maze tile is turned over.

Steve

Scurra
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Tile setup

Verseboy wrote:
In your game it might be possible to have the maze tiles, either numbered or color-coded. They're all face down, and they have a small monster chip on top of it, also face down. For that matter, the monster chips could be drawn from a bag every time a new maze tile is turned over.
Yes, ultimately I think that would be my solution too: it adds an extra component but completely frees up the design space.

Jebbou
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Tile setup

I really like the idea suggested by Zzzzz of having multiple versions of tiles for those marked with the same number or colored icon. Placing face down tokens with traps, monsters and treasures is another good idea, but if you want to stick out of randomness (random created dungeons), you could "number"/"colorcode" tokens as well.

Also, each tiles could represent four squares of your map (not necessarily connected together). That idea is not too good though.

TrekNoid
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Joined: 10/02/2009
Tile setup

How about this approach?

Print the mazes on large cards, then cover the maze with random cards, all with the same back... Then, as players move, flip the card and reveal the space... and what's in it.

Or, give your cards a number of possibilities and roll a die to pick what was under it.

Trek

Nazhuret
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Joined: 12/31/1969
Tile setup

is there going to be a ref in this game? if not then the players would always know what the cards are regardless of putting blank cards on top of them or many of the other suggestions here.

without a ref there is no way to have the players set up the board without knowing what it is they are setting up. to think that they will not remember what the tiles mean after even one playing is simply fooling yourself.

and of course with a ref you don't have a problem anymore.

why does the board have to fall into such set patterns? why can't you have random placement of the tiles? it seems a lot easier to just print out a map for each pattern rather than have tiles if you must have a certain pattern or have the board be totally random if you're set on tiles.

Infernal
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Tile setup

One method is to have verious tiles marked as "Event" instead of "Trap" or "monster" or "Treasure".

The "Event" would triger the players to draw a card or, roll a die and lookup the result (this could be on the card or seperate). This would keep the game different each time and if you have critical (read plot) cards included in the deck then it would make the visiting of those locations important. So even if they knew where they were they would have to find their way to them and then would not know what that location would be.

OutsideLime
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Tile setup

The thing here is that he doesn't want the dungeons to be random. He wants to predesign them himself, so (I'm optimistic here) each dungeon has a layout and therefore a "storyline" that makes sense. What he is searching for is a way to hide the prearrangement from the player when it is the player that must do the prearranging.

Not to make the task any more difficult here, but it has occured to me that you must account for orientation of the tiles as well... if the player places a tile 90º from the intended angle, it messes up your carefully created dungeon design... so that has to be worked into the layout process for the player as well.

Keep at it. The solution is there.

~Josh

Anonymous
Tile setup

Thanks for all your input !

The "event tile" idea sounds like a good one. Even if players remember that this is a special place they won't know whether it's a good one or a bad one until they draw a separate event card. Some event tiles need to be fixed and not randomized and so for the next draft I will try to go with 3 color markings on the back of the tiles and see how that works out. Is it easier/harder to memorize "Blue-Green-Yellow" as compared to #92 ? I don't know..

I am aware of the problem with rotating tiles, but I think it can be easily fixed by something akin to a "This side up" arrow or having a continuous pattern in the background.

Some quick prototyping a few days ago revealed that the end phase of the game where players have uncovered the "maze" (due to the game's theme it's not really a maze but it's similar enough) and must navigate it against a timer is lots of fun. Now I'll need to find a way to make the tile flipping before this more intriguing. This is my first attempt at board game design and so far it's very exciting- I'll keep you posted as things progress. :-)

larienna
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Tile setup

I don`t see the problem. You just design your tiles so that they can be tillable whatever the side you place them. For example, let say that each tile has a series of corridors and rooms. You make sure, for exanmples that all corridors arrives in the middle of each side. If during the tile placement, a corridor does not match with a corridor, then it simply lead into a room. So you can use random tile placement. You will only need to add doors on the fly.

I currently making tillable maps, and for example, I am making sure that the border shared hex on each map are the same color, the river on the side always start at the same place and the shore always have the same width on the side of the map. It allows me to match the maps in many ways.

So just establish a set of rules which will make all tiling combination work.

TargetBoy
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Joined: 08/13/2008
I seem to be hung up on booklets lately, so...

How about this: instead of the tile having an event associated with it, separate the events out into a book or external list. Then you could use the same layout for several scenarios. Just because tile 412 had an Ogre in it last game does not mean that it does this game.

The actual scenario played could be chosen randomly or be chosen by early decisions. (If they start at entrance A, use scenario 3, or maybe if they choose 2 theives, use scenario 3)

I don't know if it's useful, but there it is.

Anonymous
Tile setup

Did two more trial runs last night and things are coming along nicely. :-D
My fiancee (who loves jigsaws but doesn't like competitive games) had a great time playing it. Hopefully hardcore gamers who don't like jigsaws will at least be able to enjoy it..

The tiles are marked with 3 dots each (out of 5 colors=125 possible tiles) and the manual tells you which color combination goes into which spot on the board. Of these 125 tiles some 16 tiles will be bad for the players and another 16 tiles are marked as events which can be good or bad for players depending on a subsequently drawn event card. At least for me memorizing these 16 or 32 color combinations is out of the question and given other game mechanics the benefit of doing so is rather limited. Unless more game tests reveal that this is still a problem I will consider this issue to be resolved.

Because the tile design is not symmetrical, players need to flip them over in a certain direction. I assumed that flipping them horizontally ("left to right") would work, but my playtesters instinctively flipped the 1"x1" tiles vertically. Maybe there are ergonomical reasons for that ? How do you flip cardboard tiles ?

To prevent the tiles from being too flimsy I have used some heavyweight cardboard: Bainbridge 2000 BX (< $8 for a 4' x 4' board at a local Aaron Bros. store). It's nice and sturdy, but a pain to cut manually. If you have some game boards that don't require much cutting I highly recommend it !

For future prototypes or low-volume productions, do you know of any printing / service companies that offer to cut / score cardboard ?

OutsideLime
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Joined: 12/31/1969
Tile setup

Quote:
Because the tile design is not symmetrical, players need to flip them over in a certain direction. I assumed that flipping them horizontally ("left to right") would work, but my playtesters instinctively flipped the 1"x1" tiles vertically. Maybe there are ergonomical reasons for that ? How do you flip cardboard tiles ?

After some dummy testing on the desk in front of me it seems that I naturally tend to "jab" my thumb down on the near side of a tile. (lightly) This stabilizes the tile, and marginally lifts the far side so I can get easier purchase on it with index & middle finger tips. Then I flip the tile towards myself.

I do this naturally without thinking (i think, would have to blind-test it on unsuspecting victims to know for sure) no matter which way the tile (tried it with Catan tiles and business-card-sized tiles) is oriented.

So seating position may have some impact on which way players flip.

Best solution is probably to have some graphic icon that assists in the flip direction, plus a brief description/diagram in the rules.

Strange topic, thanks for giving me something new to analyze.

~Josh

OutsideLime
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Tile setup

Or you could try a tile shape like this:

Ba da bing.

Can only be flipped horizontally and still fit the pattern. I've assumed here that you are using a hex-grid, but a square or rectangular tile will work equally well as long as you keep the tab & slot centered.

It is more cutting and therefore more time/$, but it may be a solution that will work for you.

~Josh

Anonymous
Tile setup

OutsideLime wrote:
After some dummy testing on the desk in front of me it seems that I naturally tend to "jab" my thumb down on the near side of a tile. (lightly) This stabilizes the tile, and marginally lifts the far side so I can get easier purchase on it with index & middle finger tips. Then I flip the tile towards myself.

Same here..

Thanks for the shape suggestion !

seo
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Tile setup

It might have something to do with being on the southern emisphere ;-) but I do the exact opposite: pressing the far side, inserting the thumb under the near side and flip.
Maybe it's because I'm eager to see what's on the other face of the tile, I don't know.

I guess the instructions printed on the reverse side is the best option, production-wise, but the irregular shape might help keeping the tiles toghether. It will also prevent you from using the same tile with different orientations (tiles will not fit), so this might be a deciding factor.

Seo

OutsideLime
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Joined: 12/31/1969
Tile setup

After some playing around I have come to these conclusions:

You do not need a special tile shape like the one I showed you, in fact that shape will hinder you from designing a wide variety of mazes, since it can't be rotated at all. You should go with a square shape for least fiddly-ness and best potential for 90º turns... an asymetrical shape will not allow you to orient the tile in any other way than one, while a rectangle can only be 180'ed. You could go with a hex, but hexes are much harder to home-produce with any uniformity and might result in an overcomplication of orientation combinations/instructions.

Flipping instructions cannot be marked on the tiles themselves, since the tiles will be oriented in different directions in different dungeons! Basically you want to insure that all tiles are flipped horizontally. Left or right does not matter, and keeps the dungeon intact. A vertical flip throws everything off whack. Even if ALL tiles are flipped vertically, the whole dungeon will be ass-backwards and none of your rooms/halls will connect properly. Include a "double-ended arrow" card with the game that gets laid down beside the maze and is indicated in the setup diagram of each dungeon. The arrow shows which plane is "horizontal" (remember, players may sit on all sides of the maze, so horizontal to one is vertical to the next) and players must keep an eye on themselves and the other players while tile-flipping to insure that horizontality is adhered to.

A grid of blank squares could help for setup purposes... that way all players can help fill in part of the dungeon during setup starting at various locations, instead of having to build all off the initial tile placed.

Now check out this deck of tiles I've whipped up for you.. Using your 5-colour limit, these tiles have their orientation mechanic BUILT-IN. There are 150 tiles in the deck, all unique (even accounting for rotation):

Let's say you've got the following setup diagram:

There are only 10 possible tiles from the deck above that match these 10 tiles, and I've rotated a few of them just to make it trickier. Built-in orientation mechanic, plus the memory-confusing element you wanted from the beginning, and it's even a bit simpler for players to sift through the deck and find the right tiles since the large spot in the centre makes breakdown into manageble groups easier.... whaddaya think?

~Josh

PS - and if you ever want to expand batches of 30 tiles at a time to the deck, just make a new centre symbol.....

Anonymous
Tile setup

@OutsideLime:
Wow, this is amazing! The color markings on my protoype were in a certain pattern to ensure that all tiles are "right side up" which would not allow rotated tiles. Your color pattern is a lot more flexible and the big spot in the middle helps in quickly sorting through tiles. I like it very much :)

What was your concern about flipping horizontally though ? The direction to flip the tiles does not make any difference as long as all of them are done in the right direction.

A placemat or foldable game board to put the tiles on would be nice and not a problem for prototyping but adds some unnecessary overhead for manufacturing.

Speaking of manufacturing: I am hoping to use letter-sized 2-ply chipboard for the tiles, print out back & front paper at my local Kinko's color laser, then use spray adhesive to stick them on before taking the sheets to a printer for cutting out all the 1"x1" tiles. The printer charges 8 cents per sheet which seems reasonable enough. What about paper type and printing quality though ? Do they have good quality printers at Kinko's ? What's a good paper to use for glueing onto the board ? I want to do a small test run of 100-300 units to see if there is enough interest in the game.

OutsideLime
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Tile setup

Quote:
What was your concern about flipping horizontally though ? The direction to flip the tiles does not make any difference as long as all of them are done in the right direction.

You are right.. I was premature in my declaration. What DOES matter though is that the player flips tiles to reveal them along the same plane (horizontal or vertical) that the dungeon designer (you) flipped them on in order to conceal them.

Run a test. Create a small right-side-up maze with 4 tiles with L-shaped hallways in them, in a 2x2 layout. (so the completed hallway circuit forms a square.)

Now flip them over vertically, and mark down the layout diagram (use 4 tiles from the colour deck)

If you flip the tiles over horizontally to reveal them, the layout will be all messed up. If you reveal them vertically instead, (as they were originally flipped) the layout stays as intended.

Try it the other way around.... build the same dungeon layout, but this time flip them horizontally to hide them. Notice that the layout diagram is different. That's the thing.

So, the issue is not that horizontal or vertical are inherently wrong, it's that you must reveal on the same plane that the dungeon was hidden in, whether it was horizontal or vertical.

In any case, the Arrow Card still works. Just make sure that when you are flipping tiles over to create your layout diagram, you flip them all over in one direction, and then indicate to the players on the layout diagram which direction that is. Sticking to one plane (say, horizontal) through the whole design process makes it easier on both the designer and the players.

Quote:
Speaking of manufacturing: I am hoping to use letter-sized 2-ply chipboard for the tiles, print out back & front paper at my local Kinko's color laser, then use spray adhesive to stick them on before taking the sheets to a printer for cutting out all the 1"x1" tiles. The printer charges 8 cents per sheet which seems reasonable enough. What about paper type and printing quality though ? Do they have good quality printers at Kinko's ? What's a good paper to use for glueing onto the board ? I want to do a small test run of 100-300 units to see if there is enough interest in the game.

This is not my specialty, but there's lots of good advice in various threads on the forum.

Quote:
Wow, this is amazing! The color markings on my protoype were in a certain pattern to ensure that all tiles are "right side up" which would not allow rotated tiles. Your color pattern is a lot more flexible and the big spot in the middle helps in quickly sorting through tiles. I like it very much :)

I knew you'd like it... :) Thanks for the compliment, it was an interesting challenge to put my mind to. I would love to hear more as this game progresses....

Thanks,

~Josh

Anonymous
Tile setup

I have been working on this kind of idea for some 5 years now in my spare time.

And, in fact, I have arrived a designed simillar to OutsideLime at one stage. Though my designed is now far different, the "core designed principle" is unerringly simillar.

Will this not pose a patent problem?

OutsideLime
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Joined: 12/31/1969
Tile setup

Quote:
I have been working on this kind of idea for some 5 years now in my spare time.

And, in fact, I have arrived a designed simillar to OutsideLime at one stage. Though my designed is now far different, the "core designed principle" is unerringly simillar.

Will this not pose a patent problem?

Not with me it won't. I'm not even sure if the idea is patentable, or if it has been thought of before or patented already, and in any case I have no interest in protecting it anyway.

Just helping someone else puzzle through a problem, and on a public forum instead of through private conversations. This indicates my intention (and suits the spirit of the forum I think) of having a solution to a certain problem type be out there and available for people to look up and manipulate and tweak in order to solve a problem with their game design...

Have you patented this tile-revealing mechanic? Were you intending to?

It occurs to me that the mechanic in question is not even really related to the gameplay as much as it is to the setup of the game... which is presumably only a small part of the game experience as a whole. All of the narrative takes place on the visible surface of the tiles and must certainly have an entire ruleset composed of many other mechanics that integrate to form your game. Yours and Cross' games are probably remarkably different, even with the one shared mechanic.

Anyway, great minds think alike I guess.... ;) I would love to hear more about your game!

~Josh

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