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Favours

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Anonymous

How can you prevent that an game ,in where you give each other inderect favours, strands. For example you help another player and when you need his help he refuses because that would make you too strong, next time he wants a favour from you you won't be likely to give it to him how can you prevent this?

Dralius
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Favours

I don’t fully understand your question.

Do you want to set up a game system that requires players to help each other without a pre-made deal on the premise that since player A helped player B; B owe A something?

Many games enforce deals but those deals are spelled out by both sides ahead of time “I’ll give you 10 units of Iron if you give me one unit of oil every round for the rest of the game” for example.

Anonymous
Favours

Yes

Dralius
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Favours

i guess it depends on the game but i think you will need to make a list of actions that can be done as favors and what value they have.

For Example

Move Value 1
Attack Value 2
Defend Value 2

So if player A did the favor (Move) they could ask for move in return but not attack or defend. Is this the sort of thing you are thinking of?

Brykovian
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Favours

If you wanted to force players to *have* to follow through on favors, then you will need the agreements between players to be public knowledge (group known = group enforced), you will need mechanisms for tracking/reminding, and you will need a punishment and/or reward system for players holding up or renegging on their end of the agreement.

I can't think of any way to force players to keep up their end of an agreement if you're missing any of those parts.

-Bryk

Infernal
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Joined: 12/31/1969
Favours

You could have "Favour" tokens. Each time a player recieves a favour the get a favour token. Each time they do a favour for someone else they can remove one of these favour tokens from themselves.

If the tokens have some penalty (say: reduces their victory points while they have them) then you give them an incentive to return favours that others give them.

zaiga
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Joined: 12/31/1969
Re: Favours

Trasa wrote:
How can you prevent that an game ,in where you give each other inderect favours, strands. For example you help another player and when you need his help he refuses because that would make you too strong, next time he wants a favour from you you won't be likely to give it to him how can you prevent this?

I don't think you can fully prevent it, unless you want to resort to convoluted and clunky mechanics. This is just the kind of diplomacy that can happen in a game with a fair amount of direct interaction. Just make sure that the game always moves forward, even when players don't help eachother out. For example, in Settlers, if players don't trade with eachother, they may (eventually) trade with the bank and get their resources. This may be a slow process, and not as advantageous as trading with other players, but it does make sure that the game doesn't get stuck.

Another game you might want to take a look at is Reiner Knizia's Quo Vadis?. This is a negotiating game, and players have to help eachother out to be able to get forward in the game. Helping other players is stimulated by giving players a Victory Point when they help another player. However, even when that mechanic fails (if no one is willing to help another player, for some reason), it's possible to move a Caesar token, which grants you free passage, to make sure that the game never gets stuck.

IngredientX
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Re: Favours

Trasa wrote:
How can you prevent that an game ,in where you give each other inderect favours, strands. For example you help another player and when you need his help he refuses because that would make you too strong, next time he wants a favour from you you won't be likely to give it to him how can you prevent this?

Another school of thought would be that this is a self-balancing mechanism that doesn't really need to be fixed. If I'm playing a game in which a potential move can help an opponent (like Carcassonne: Traders and Builders, where closing off a city can give me goods, but gives someone else points), I have to consider the fact that I will probably not get any return for the favor I've done.

I have a player in one of my gaming groups who does expect these favors in return. He'll often try a meta-trade (for instance, in Settlers: "OK, I'll give you a sheep for now, but try and remember me later on..."), and if the deal is never reciprocated, he'll whine and complain. I don't really feel bad about it in terms of the game, because he should have expected it going in. Caveat Emptor!

So for a game with a new mechanic that would enforce this reciprocation... hey, it might work. It could easily turn out to be a good game, too. But if you're thinking of "fixing" an existing game, I don't think it's a big problem that's screaming for a solution.

Anonymous
Favours

I agree its not for fixing an game.

jwarrend
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Joined: 08/03/2008
Re: Favours

IngredientX wrote:

I have a player in one of my gaming groups who does expect these favors in return. He'll often try a meta-trade (for instance, in Settlers: "OK, I'll give you a sheep for now, but try and remember me later on..."), and if the deal is never reciprocated, he'll whine and complain. I don't really feel bad about it in terms of the game, because he should have expected it going in. Caveat Emptor!

I find this interesting, as these deals for "future consideration" were foundational to the culture of the last group I was in. I suppose that in making such an offer you accept the risk that the future help won't materialize, but if someone consistently failed to make good on promises of future help after accepting something, that this could create a meta-game whereby that person would have a hard time making deals of any sort in future games, as he would be known to be untrustworthy.

In that sense, I do agree with Gil that it's probably self-balancing over many playings of a game, but if you're worried about this issue messing up a single game, just add a rule that deals must be binding. One way you might achieve this comes from a variant I once saw for Samurai Swords; the idea is that you put a price on every deal, and a player who reneges on a deal must give the other player the agreed-upon price. This actually is supposed to make betrayal less emotional, since it becomes a business decision, and the betrayed player gets something out of it. I think it's a nice mechanic that could work for a variety of game settings.

-Jeff

Horoku
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Joined: 12/31/1969
Cash or Credit?

IngredientX wrote:
I have a player in one of my gaming groups who does expect these favors in return. He'll often try a meta-trade (for instance, in Settlers: "OK, I'll give you a sheep for now, but try and remember me later on..."), and if the deal is never reciprocated, he'll whine and complain. I don't really feel bad about it in terms of the game, because he should have expected it going in. Caveat Emptor!

I actually first began playing with future payoff deals while playing the card game Bohnanza (I think it's Rio Grande, don't quote me). Simple things like "If you give me bean x, I'll give you my next bean y" I think this can add a lot to a game, since you have to balance out whether to make good on promises or take advantage of other players' trust. Although I don't "whine and complain" about failed deals, that's part of the fun. I just keep a mental record of everyone's "credit history" and I pull it whenever a deal needs to be made.

However this post has made me think about a few new concepts, like maybe finding a quick way to write up contracts for deals, or maybe keeping a credit record, as mentioned with the favour tokens. It would be interesting to even base a game on such contracts in a business setting, where players have to take risks in order to advance, but taking on too much can come back to bite them. As far as "forcing" players to pay up, just as in real life, what happens if a player declares "bankruptcy"? (Is unable to pay applicable "loans" or penalties) Does this simply increase the penalty in severity, or might it eliminate the player altogether? A lot of variables to wrap my head around I guess.

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