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Game #18: Pokerface by Darkehorse

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sedjtroll
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Comments on Pokerface rules... as I go through the rulebook:

'Hand cards' might get confusing, since players have hands of Hand cards... Maybe 'Poker Hand cards' or something? Maybe it's not a concern.

I'd call the "Black active player token" something else- "The Button" or the "Active Player Button"

If there are less than 6 players you set aside 1 gambler and remove the rest from the game... why not always have 6 Gamblers playing? Or just the same number as players? What does the set aside Gambler do for the game? I assume it's so people can't be sure who has which gambler. If that's the case I'd still recommend using all 6... This ties in with another comment I will be making later.

"Deal out 30 poker chips..." Just say 'place 30 poker chips on each gambler mat'

Maybe call the "active player" the "Dealer"? That would make the button the Dealer Button, which I believe it's called in real life.

Just out of curiosity, where does the number 8 for number of rounds come from?

Round order: "A bonus round", not "The bonus round"

I'm not sure I like choosing a gambler. I don't see a good reason for it... if you have a good hand would you want to pick 'your' gambler, and if you have a bad hand would you pick another? would there be a good reason to pick one over another? Perhaps the gamblers should be dealt out randomly each turn (not the Secret Gamblers- those are set at the beginning of the game). If there are more Gamblers than players, some players will get dealt 2 Gamblers, and would play for both that hand. This goes hand in hand with the possibility of there always being 6 Gamblers for each pot.

Since the Dealer Button rotates and there is a set number of rounds it should even out as far as who plays 2 gamblers and how often. I would maybe set the number of rounds to 2x#players or something. I suppose it could be a set number of rounds depending on the number of players whic would keep the number more consistant... Like 8 rounds for 2 or 4 player, 9 for 3 players, 10 for 5 players, and 12 for 6 players (trying to keep # of start player instances the same for each player).

Definition of Checking- just say "Pass the bet to the next player"

Bet- first off, there's a typ-o ("If not bet has yet..."). Second, as mentioned previously by Random_Person and seconded by myself, perhaps the bet shoudl also require a VP bet. Rather than simply betting 1 chip, allow players to bet as many as they like, at the cost of 1VP per chip, or per 3 Chips (and have each pleyer begin the game with 10 VP)...
If people have to pay VPs to bet, that does a couple of things- it keeps peopls from gaining by tanking, it forces people to try and win VPs throughout the game (so they can afford to bet), and it adds a sort of resource management aspect to the game. You need to spend VPs to get more, so you have to figure out the best way to do that.

You say "After a bet has been made players have basically three options:" then go on to define 4. Strike that whole line, it's unnecessary. Just define Call as "Matching the current bet" and Raise as "Matching the bet and then increasing it."

Raise action: when raising the bet you get to play an upgrade card, correct? This raise should cost VPs just like betting. Maybe the upgrade should cost 1vp to play or something too..?

All In: could maybe be re-worded. The All In should cost VPs same as calling, 1vp per X chips that you actually are putting in (not how many they would have to to fully match the bet).

Your 'Max bet/raise 1 chip' and twice around betting is interesting, might keep the game moving and make it less similar to just playing poker. maybe that's the way to go... the above suggestions still apply. (although, twice around betting sounds sorta arbitrary)

Upgrade Chart: Do pairs have a Suit? Or do you mean Value/Rank?

Winning a hand: I imagine you mean in the case of a tie, the TIED player closest to the dealer's left wins the hand... not just the player left of the dealer.

As for points- as Random_Player suggested there could be a Point pot as wella s a cash pot- winning Gambler gets the cash, winning Player gets the points... OR there could be a set number of points won for winning. I think paying to bet replaces penalties for losing.

End of round stuff:
Do you like the players having the option of keeping their Hand cards or ditching them for more? I think it might be better to have to keep them, getting the cards played replaced each round. If you don't like your hand, you can always 'upgrade' to get cards out of your hand... :)

"After scoring, players retrieve any Bluff cards they played and the dealer button is passed to the left. The new dealer shuffles the Hand card discards intot he Hand deck and deals replacement cards to bring everybody's hand to 4."... something like that.

Have you considered there simply being several Bluff cards in the deck, rather than each player always having 1? Also, is it necessary to reshuffle each round? Why not have each player replace their spent cards from the deck at the end of each round, and reshuffle the discards when the draw pile runs out. This allows 'card counting' which you may or may not want. It's almost like you might want it, because that's a big part of playing cards.

Bonus Scoring:
There was a lot of discusison of the Guess the Traitor mechanic in Jeff's game. Similarly, is this really an important part of your game? Is it really necessary to figure out who is who? Doesn't doing so already give you some semblance of game advantage without having to score for it?

Scoring by Gambler Ranking. I had assumed the scoring would be related to the size of the Gambler's purse, but I like your idea better. I think the Bankrupt token works in nicely that way. Minor comment, normally if there's a 3-way tie for 2nd, then there is no 3rd or 4th place. But that could go either way in my opinion- go ahead and give the last place guy an extra 2 points! :)

An interesting idea, kind of a twist on poker. In general, it's probably more fun to just play poker, but for people who don't want to play for money poker is either not an option, or stupid because when playing for nothing people don't play 'right' because they have nothing to lose. I think your game might be a fun way to remedy that, and give people who don't want to play poker for money something to do which might provide a similar experience.

- Seth

phpbbadmin
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Yep

sedjtroll wrote:

Now, if there are indeed both money and victory points in the game, and they are not the same thing, then they need to do different things.

VP and gambler chips are different. VPs are scored by players winning poker hands, correctly guessing the other players' secret gamblers and based upon the ranking of their secret gamblers at the end of the game (determined by how many chips each secret gambler has). And obviously I want to penalize players for losing hands, based upon the severity of the loss.

The chips are used by the players to bet with each round. The players have access to the gambler's stock that they control that turn.

Quote:

I never finished reading the rules, but I'd have to assume that the PLAYERS have VPs and the GAMBLERS have money. Is that accurate? So what's the point of the game? To bankrupt the other Gamblers? Or to earn the most VPs over the course of the game?

The most VP points obviously.

Quote:

Perhaps 'paying' VPs in order to do things like raise the bet is a good solution to people trying to tank a Gambler. If they want the Gambler to lose lots of money, then it will cost them VPs. Therefore tanking gamblers does not help you win the game. This is somewhat similar to the dual-bet that Random_Person suggested. If it's the case that money moves between Gamblers and VPs move between players, then maybe the dual pot is a good idea. Then the Gambler who wins the hand gets the cash pot and the player playing him that turn gets the VP pot. So you are always interested in winning pots, or getting out of a losing pot.

Yes essentially, players score points for winning poker hands and gamblers earn chips for winning hands. For the time being, I'd rather not have the players 'spend' VPs for anything. I'd rather just penalize them for losing based upon the severity of the loss.

Quote:

However, there would have to be some other mechanism for gaining points based on the performance of "your" Gambler- maybe 1 VP per $X they have at the end of the game?

Currently I have it so you earn bonus VP's based upon your gamblers 'ranking' at the end of the game. Ranking is determined by the # of chips the gambler ends the game with and how many bankrupt tokens they have.

I'll go read the rest of the rules now and see if anything hits me.

Anonymous
Re: Yep

Darkehorse wrote:

Yes essentially, players score points for winning poker hands and gamblers earn chips for winning hands. For the time being, I'd rather not have the players 'spend' VPs for anything. I'd rather just penalize them for losing based upon the severity of the loss.

Darke,
Maybe you misread my post then... what I intended was that when a player places a bet, the VPs come out of the community "pot" of VPs... NOT the players VPs. The winner gets all the VPs that turn and the loser(s) lose VPs from their "earnings" back the the community pot.

Player's aren't "spending" VPs to bet... they come out of a pot. They only gain or lose VPs based on the ammount of betting each player does.

Tyler

SVan
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Game #18: Pokerface by Darkehorse

Which is exactly the same thing I said (but using different words.) Our posts were probably written almost the same time, and it's interesting to see the same idea stated by me and someone else at the same time.

phpbbadmin
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Re: Yep

Random_Person wrote:
Darkehorse wrote:

Yes essentially, players score points for winning poker hands and gamblers earn chips for winning hands. For the time being, I'd rather not have the players 'spend' VPs for anything. I'd rather just penalize them for losing based upon the severity of the loss.

Darke,
Maybe you misread my post then... what I intended was that when a player places a bet, the VPs come out of the community "pot" of VPs... NOT the players VPs. The winner gets all the VPs that turn and the loser(s) lose VPs from their "earnings" back the the community pot.

Player's aren't "spending" VPs to bet... they come out of a pot. They only gain or lose VPs based on the ammount of betting each player does.

Tyler

Actually I was responding to Sedjtroll's suggestion about spending VP's to do stuff, not your community pot idea. While your idea is good, I would have to 'deal out' VPs to players at the beginning of the game to spend. And then there would be a set VP Pool (suppose one player won so much that no one else had any VPs to bet). And then there would really be no need for the gamblers, because you wouldn't really bet chips. You would be just betting VPs.

-Darke

sedjtroll
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Re: Yep

Random_Person wrote:
Darkehorse wrote:

Yes essentially, players score points for winning poker hands and gamblers earn chips for winning hands. For the time being, I'd rather not have the players 'spend' VPs for anything. I'd rather just penalize them for losing based upon the severity of the loss.

Darke,
Maybe you misread my post then... what I intended was that when a player places a bet, the VPs come out of the community "pot" of VPs... NOT the players VPs. The winner gets all the VPs that turn and the loser(s) lose VPs from their "earnings" back the the community pot.

Player's aren't "spending" VPs to bet... they come out of a pot. They only gain or lose VPs based on the ammount of betting each player does.

Tyler

I was the one that misread your post. I thought it would be interesting to have to PAY to bet, rather then get penalized for betting when you shouldn't. Paying to bet means you ARE penalized for betting when you shouldn't, which is similar to being rewarded when you should. Also, in my opinion, it's easier to conceptualize paying for things and earning rewards than doing thins for free and then either earning rewards or getting penalized... it's like more stuff to check at the end of the hand- not just who won, but by how much did each player lose. If you pay to bet, the 'how much did each player lose' happens automatically along the way.

- Seth

sedjtroll
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Re: Yep

Darkehorse wrote:
Actually I was responding to Sedjtroll's suggestion about spending VP's to do stuff, not your community pot idea... then there would really be no need for the gamblers, because you wouldn't really bet chips. You would be just betting VPs.

Right, which is the same problem I had with Random's dual bet idea in the first place. But if the VP prize isn't the same as the 'VPs spent to bet' then it differs from just betting VPs.

- Seth

zaiga
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Game #18: Pokerface by Darkehorse

Darkehorse,

You asked me to look at your game "Pokerface", so I did. I must say that I like the basic premise of the game, which is that players score points for one secret gambler, but can play with different gamblers, depending on whether they are planning to win or lose the round. I also like the idea that gamblers will often win with "amazing" hand, just as in the movies.

I found the rules not very well written, but I think I was able to puzzle out most of it. You noted that you weren't really interested in comments about the rules at this point, which I understand, so I'll refrain from commenting on the rules ;)

I suggest you cut out the "bonus" scoring rounds, at least for the time being. I think it is pretty complex, especially considering you want to make it a lighter game. I think it is more important to concentrate on the basic mechanics of the game right now, you can always add it back in later.

Perhaps it is a nice idea to let the "hand" cards depict two or three actual playing cards, instead of the abstract "flush" or "straight", etc cards. This would make the game easier to understand for those who already know poker and it would add quite a bit of flavour. Of course, it should still be possible to end up with amazing hands, so the cards should depict parts of straight flushes, pairs and pairs plus another card.

If you use this idea, then I think it also a good idea to go with the 7 stud poker variant, instead of the normal draw poker variant, since you want to end the hand with 7 cards (3+2+2) and because it works better with the high/low variant, which I also suggest you use. The idea of high/low split is that both the gambler with the highest hand and the gambler with the lowest hand win (they split the pot). This is part of the solution to fix the "tanking" problem. For example: suppose you play with a gambler for which you don't score points. You play some crummy cards and keep raising the pot, but suddenly a few players fold/call and you have to show your crappy hand, which actually wins you a few bucks. Oops. Could add some nice tension and dillema's.

However, this alone won't fix the problem. What you need is an incentive for players to drop out of the bidding early. I suggest you add some kind of "hand management" aspect to the game. For example, at the start of the game each player receives 7 cards. The first player to fold and drop out of the round receives 3 cards (and the startplayer marker!), the second player to drop receives 2 cards, the rest receives one card. This ensures that every now and then a player will have to drop out of the round early, simply to draw some extra cards. This also introduces a nice dillema: suppose you control a gambler which you want to deprive of some bucks, but you also want to draw some cards, how far can you go with the bidding before other players drop? In essence, this asks the question how much a card is worth, with some added complexity.

By the way, I think it would be a nice idea if the players draw one card from a display of face-up cards. This way you have a bit of an idea what players have in their hands and it adds a bit of bluffing to the game.

Now, I have suggested adding the high/low split and the reward for early folding, but I think the game needs another layer of scoring, on top of the scoring for the secret gamblers. Suppose you have a number of tiles equal to the number of rounds. These tiles have a number on them. At the start of a turn draw one random tile and place it face up. The winner of the round (with the highest hand) receives this tile. These tiles score points at the end of the game. As an added twist you could add a card symbol to some of the (low-value) tiles; whoever wins such a tile may draw an extra card. This would provide an extra motivation to win a round, even if you play for someone else's gambler.

I think it is a good idea if the scoring of gamblers is a majority scoring (ie. whoever controls the gambler with the most chips at the end of the game gets 15 points, 2nd place 12 points, 3rd place 10 points, etc) and that the scoring of the tiles is one a 1 for 1 basis (ie. the "5" tile is worth 5 points). This makes scoring a bit "murkier" and more interesting.

I think, if these suggestion are successfull, you can go back to a more free form of bidding to allow for a more tense, poker-ish feel in the raising/calling/folding process, although some restriction in how much you can raise is probably still necessary.

I hope these suggestion were somewhat useful. Good luck with the game!

- René Wiersma

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