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Game #59: Art Attack by Mike Hommel

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Hamumu
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Joined: 12/31/1969

First things first:
Because of the server downtime, Clarissimus got kinda screwed for his week of GDW time, so please drop by here to critique his game first!

Second things now:

My game's called Art Attack, and it's in a very strange place between party game and very very light strategy. Maybe it's a party game for geeks and/or 6 year olds. I think it could easily be positioned as a kid's game, but that would be a shame, because I made it so *I* could play it! It is probably mostly luck (I have yet to test it, but I'll get to this Thursday, so give me good input to make it rock), but once the monsters get out on the table, there's some skill involved.

Here are the rules, and the cards.

They're both in DOC format. You could actually print up a prototype from these, the cards are a mail merge on 2"x3" labels.

Notes:
- Instructions too wordy? Probably. The game is quite simple ruleswise, just a little 'floaty', since it revolves around arguing opinions, so I think I added a lot of words to help deal with that.
- 50 cards is probably not enough, and they're very arbitrarily invented. I don't know if there's a good mix of ones referencing each different body part. But on the other hand, more cards would mean it's less possible to guess what your opponents might have, and reduce the skill factor even more, I think.
- I'm not up on all the games out there in the world... but there hasn't ever been one like this, has there? It seemed like a very original concept (possibly for good reason).

Anonymous
Game #59: Art Attack by Mike Hommel

Hello

Quote:
it's in a very strange place between party game and very very light strategy

I agree with you: the game seems to be one where the fun is more important that strategy. However, I think that playtesting will decide how much.

Quote:
I'm not up on all the games out there in the world... but there hasn't ever been one like this, has there? It seemed like a very original concept (possibly for good reason).

Your game reminds me another one: 1000 blank cards.

http://www.geocities.com/nconner23/bwcards.html

I haven't played this one, but its creator emphasizes that it doesn't matter who wins, so you can imagine the degree of chaos.

However, I think yours is still very original. Good luck!

Roberto

Scurra
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Game #59: Art Attack by Mike Hommel

Wonderful.
It might not work, but who cares? I know *I* want to play it.

I wouldn't be too concerned about the wordiness of the rules, so much as the "elimination" rule: I can see that the game is likely to be fairly even, but having your monster killed shouldn't stop you from being able to play cards, especially as the cards are generally subjective anyway.

What feels wrong at the moment is the specificity of the cards. It seems to me that the game needs an even more chaotic damage generation system, so that players can't benefit from knowing the cards.
For instance, have cards that say "wings", "hat", legs", "teeth" etc, and ones that are adjectives "longest", "fewest" and maybe a coin flip to determine if the factor is "has" or "doesn't have".
Then just put an adjective and a noun together and see what you get ("monsters with no wings take damage".) I know you lose the amusing card names, but I think you might gain a surrealness that fits the game better.

Johan
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Game #59: Art Attack by Mike Hommel

Hi

I believe (as you wrote) that you need more cards. But otherwise, I have not much to add to the comments. It looks fun and I looking forward to test it.

(One small thing you could do is to double the cards on hand (from 2 deck of cards one with attacks and one with the arms, legs and son on) Then you could play 2 card per tunn as a combination)

// Johan

Anonymous
Game #59: Art Attack by Mike Hommel

after reading the rules, this is a game that I want to play right now. It looks like a blast, very fun. Certainly not the type of game that some more analytical players might like, this means you sedjtroll.

But man talk about a blast. This also brings me to a point made by BarronVangorToth (i think) that a game should try to avoid dice as much as possible, or if it doesn't it should use as many dice as possible. I think he said "If somebody told me that a game couldn't avoid using dice, but also said that it uses 50 dice, I would like it" I nice addition to the game might be a large handful of dice to help damage dealing be more random. I might also be nice to have a longer timer, maybe 2 minutes, that is something you would have to playtest.

I wouldn't have any idea on how to deal with some players just saying this monster is this way as a way to benefit themselves. Hopefully the appeal to the game being fun and not worrying about it would be enough. Monsters are cool !

Anonymous
Re: Game #59: Art Attack by Mike Hommel

Hamumu wrote:
My game's called Art Attack, and it's in a very strange place between party game and very very light strategy.

Reading through the rules, it looks like it would be a lot of fun.

Hamumu wrote:
It is probably mostly luck

But as a party-type game, this may be okay.

There was a team on Junkyard Wars a few years ago named the Art Attacks. :-)

Anyway, I think this game would be a lot of fun. You could possibly remove some of the card aspect of it by having a list of properties and how they should affect each other that gets rolled randomly, but this really really really leans towards luck. On the other hand, let's say there's a body parts list, an effect list (like attack, heal, etc), and a number of points list, and maybe another one that decides between biggest/widest and smallest/narrowest, you could have the team roll 4 dice and arrange the dice results however they want. That way, there's some decision-making involved even though it's random. (Kindof reminiscent of the luck factor of Can't Stop.)

You could create a scoring track, and have tokens shaped like a heart to track the hit points a monster has left. Have another token of the same color but shaped like a claw, mouth, tooth, etc., to track how much damage the creature does. This could give points for the most vicious monster, points to the healthiest monster, etc. Have a third token for tracking the score.

Sorry that this is such a random jumble of thoughts. I hope there's something useful in here. :-)

RookieDesign
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Re: Game #59: Art Attack by Mike Hommel

theicemage wrote:
There was a team on Junkyard Wars a few years ago named the Art Attacks. :-)

That's is why that sound so familiar.

I read the rules of your games Hamumu. Not quite my type of game but I can see the chaos and fun during a party. I like the cards. This game is so simple I don't know how I can enhance your efforts. All I can say is good luck on your playtest and hope it's as fun to play as it is to read the rules.

DSfan
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Game #59: Art Attack by Mike Hommel

Hamumu wrote:
It is probably mostly luck

I think that luck is good in a game, if it doesn't ruin the enjoyment factor.
(And it doesn't make the game drag on for hours on end (I.E Rolling dice)
Which I belive your game accomplishes.

I really don't have any suggestions as how to make it better, as it looks like it's already a fun and simple game.

Good luck on playtesting,
-Justin

onew0rd
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Game #59: Art Attack by Mike Hommel

I like this idea alot. The problem is that the drawings will eventually become formulaic. You need some dice in there somewhere or some way to break the formula. It seems very promising though. Maybe have some challenge cards that a player can score or something.

Seems very fun though.

Anonymous
Game #59: Art Attack by Mike Hommel

A thought just struck (no, it didn't hurt)... What if, after the contest is revealed, you can pay points (or some other resource?) to be able to play "instants," to borrow a term from Magic. If the result is "most eyes," maybe you can play the "glasses" instant to increase the number of eyes that count for you. Or crutches for legs, etc. It might lead to some metagaming as to number of legs, etc., to put into your drawing based on the group - put too few and adding glasses won't help enough, etc.

Just another random thought (JART?)

MattMiller
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Joined: 12/31/1969
Game #59: Art Attack by Mike Hommel

Hi Hamumu --

This game does sound like it could be a blast. I have a few thoughts:

1. I suspect that the most enjoyable cards will be the ones that are most subjective, like "funniest" rather than "most legs". The objective cards ("most legs") may ultimately lead to formulaic drawings. For example, with the card mix you have, it might be possible to calculate the expected point value of having a hat, and determine objectively whether the monster should have one. This kind of thinking, of course, is completely counter to the intent of the game. Subjective cards should lead to more creativity and less analysis.

A few possible subjective criteria:

The monster that most resembles a given player (chosen by whoever plays this card).

The scariest monster.

The prettiest monster.

The meanest monster.

The best-educated monster.

2. Have you considered keeping secret who drew which monster? After the monsters are drawn, shuffle them in some fashion before they're revealed. Then players play cards as before (though you'd need a new way to determine who goes first -- I think choosing at random would be fine), and monsters are damaged. At the end of the game, each player reveals which monster is theirs, and whoever's monster has the least damage wins.

This might lead to some interesting game play. Players would not want to appear biased toward their monsters, because then everybody might gang up on those monsters, so they may be motivated to put forth unbiased arguments. Alternatively, they might try to appear biased toward some other monster, to fake out the other players. At another level, players might try to imitate one another's drawing styles so that it's harder to tell which monster is who's.

It would also allow a couple additional subjective criteria:

The monster that was most likely drawn by a given player (chosen by the player who plays this card).

The fastest monster (because this wouldn't be used for determining who goes first).

Anyway, whether you think these are interesting thoughts or not, good luck with this game. I hope you'll let us know how the playtest goes.

-- Matt

Hamumu
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Game #59: Art Attack by Mike Hommel

Wow, lots of great feedback! I'm really pleased to see how well the game is going over.

That 1,000 Blank White Cards game looks very fun too (provided you have a good group...). I wonder if I can get people to play that with me sometime.

As for actual feedback:

Several people have suggested that the game needs MORE randomness, which blows my mind, as I fear it will be TOO random already. Other than "Might as well make it totally insane", is there a reason you think more randomness should be in? It just doesn't make sense to me!

Oneword mentioned that drawings could become formulaic, and I can see how that is an issue. I don't actually think randomness would help it much (in fact, if you don't have cards in advance to tell you what to draw, why would you choose a large or small number of eyes? Who knows what will be better! Not that having the cards is likely to help too much - you don't know what your opponents have). I think it's one that would be best resolved by adding more cards, which are all of the subjective types like most of the "Permanent" cards are now ("monster that looks most like it needs glasses" and such), which is what Matt suggested as well, so I think I will be doing that. My hope is that the hand of cards you have will sort of inspire your art... if you have a card where the "angriest monster" gets to hurt someone, how will you draw that? I think it will be very unique, and even for a given artist, the combination of cards will make each monster a whole new thing (I think that applies to the very numerical cards too, simply due to how they'd combine).

The idea of secret monster owners is pretty fun. I have to consider it. I don't think it would change the game very much, though I'd have to playtest to see. #1, I don't know about your group, but I'd be shocked if I actually mixed up the drawing styles of any of the people I play games with, they're quite distinctive (as long as the no-stick-figure rule is enforced). It's hard to draw in an abnormal style, when you're rushing. #2, I feel like, don't know for sure, the arguments will rarely be particularly intense - I think there will usually be a fairly clear answer. But then I suppose the really subjective criteria would mix that up better!

But even though I think it wouldn't affect the game a lot, I think it would add a little spark. I'm gonna think about how to put that in as simply as possible (actually, getting rid of the speed check would be nice, it's kind of extraneous, even though it does add an extra thing to scribble towards).

Theicemage brought up the idea of a different class of cards entirely... instants. I do like the idea of having more options in play, but I also want to keep it as simple as I can. With the bigger focus on subjective criteria, there aren't a lot of 'instants' that you could use in an argument ("Clown Nose", your monster is now... 12% funnier?), but I always like the idea of being able to pull things out and trash somebody's well laid plans (not that you can lay plans much anyway). Maybe simple things like "Shield - discard when attacked to take no damage.". The downside would be that the instants would take up valuable strategy space in your hand. If you had more than 2, you wouldn't even have 3 cards to play for the round! I want to think about these, but they may just be too much, in a game that's already very wild and close to arbitrary.

A scoring track is a logical idea too. Currently score is kept with hash marks right on the page, which is simple and actually pretty elegant I think, though for consumer cuteness, the score track might be the idea. On the other hand, I like cheap and few components!

Scurra may be right that nobody should be eliminated. I am hoping it will play quickly enough for that not to matter a lot, but simply keeping dead players in the game would work fine and nobody has to be sad. Although it is pretty sad to sit there playing the game after you already know you've lost. Then the game ends when only one player has 25 or less damage, and if the others may have accumulated 150 or whatever, doesn't matter. One of the alternate rules is to simply play a 3-card round and whoever is least damaged wins at that point. That way everyone is in until the end in a very real sense. You could do that with more than 1 round too.

80 cards sounds about right? I have heard mention of magic card numbers with regard to printing... should I be aiming for one of these numbers?

Keep the comments coming, this is much more fun than doing my real work.

Deviant
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Game #59: Art Attack by Mike Hommel

110 cards is a "magic number" in publishing, or so I've heard. For Mayfair, that number is 120. I wouldn't worry too much about it as long as you're close. More is better, since it's easier for the publisher to subtract cards than to add them.

Right now your game seems just about perfect, as far as I'm concerned. It does what it's supposed to and no more. Gameplay depends completely on the creative talents of the players (which may or may not be a good thing, depending on your group). I'd agree with Scurra that player elimination = bad, and should not exist unless clearly necessary.

About the only thing your game needs is polish. Does anyone remember those plastic-sheet drawing pads where you could make marks on the plastic and then erase by lifting the page? That would be a good, reusable component, but hard to erase with. Small dry-erase boards are another possibility, but probably too expensive. Then again, paper has an advantage in that you can save your best works. Maybe I'm overthinking this.

Team matches would be an interesting addition. Either players are working together as a team, or each player has a bestiary of 2-3 monsters. There would be a tendency to make all monsters on a team distinct, so that they are not all crippled when the other team plays "A Poke in the Eye", and the greatest range of abilities can be used against all opponents.

Anonymous
Game #59: Art Attack by Mike Hommel

It's been a while, but I used to play Psychobabble (see www.popcap.com for more information). On that, everyone gets a set of refrigerator magnets, out of which they make sentences. Then, you see all the sentences that were made, and you get to vote on which was the best one. Totally subjective, but the thing that made it work was the fact that you can't vote on your own.

Anyway, here's a thought that leads from that. Have cards numbered 1-10 (or however many players can play the game). Each player gets a set of these. Designate each player as #1, 2, 3, etc. That player turns face-up the card from their set of 1-10 that matches that number. This shows what your number is for voting purposes. Then, the remaining cards are used for secret voting. After the drawings are revealed, and the criteria is shown, players vote for the drawing that best matches the criteria. The one with the most votes gets 3 points. You get one point for every vote for your picture. The winner is the first one to n points.

For this, you'd need two-sectioned cards - what to draw, and what the criteria is. Flip the first card and that shows what to draw. Everyone draws it. Flip the second card and that shows what the winning criteria is. Then everyone votes on which drawing best fits the criteria. Apply points. Whoever gets to n first wins. That makes for a very simple, yet very fun party-type game. The hardest thing is coming up with cards saying what to draw, and what the criteria is. Look to Apples To Apples for some inspiration.

For a twist, reveal what is to be drawn, as well as the criteria, and then set players to drawing. :-)

Hamumu
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Game #59: Art Attack by Mike Hommel

You've almost (sorta) described my game Arthouse, which I was debating putting up in the GDW instead of Art Attack (and I swear, they really are my only 2 games that are about drawing... I don't do all art games). I like it even better than Art Attack, and it went over AMAZINGLY when I tried it out (with my family, sure, but I was still surprised!). And I indeed noticed its relation to apples to apples - same core concept, that your success is based on how well you can predict what a judge will like.

So that's a separate game, but definitely one I like, and thus I made it!

nosissies
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Game #59: Art Attack by Mike Hommel

Nice game, looks like a lot of fun... at least coming from someone who is fairly comfortable with their drawing ability, and has some appreciation for good party games.

It looks like folks have already covered a lot of ground with their comments, so I'll quickly concur with others before I make some other comments... I'd like to see more variation in the cards to combat the possible "formulaic" drawing... not a big concern, but I think for playability, the more cards and variations you can come up with the longer the game will remain playable. My one issue with certain party games is that they tend to be the same "gag" over and over, which, while fun/funny/interesting initally may wane significantly after a few plays.

An aside regarding apples to apples: I'm torn on this game - it really depends on my mood, sometimes I can thoroughly enjoy an a2a game, and other times it's excruciating watching everyone laugh on cue at the same gag over and over. that said, make lots of cards and make sure that you don't see them all every time, and make sure it's not too fomulaic. I really like mattmiller's suggestion of more subjective less explicit cards. Also, I think the game has great potential for "expansions."

Other than that, my only significant concern is the same concern with any drawing game is that there exists a whole group of people who simply do not like this sort of game.... I'd be curious to know how this works out in a playtest. Do people get easily frustrated? Does the "best" monster tend to win? I'm guessing your playtests will be fun to observe.

I'm not sure that I like the fact that it is always the "fastest" monster that goes first, this might be the strongest formulaic element of the game, why not just draw a card from the deck to randomly determine which attribute governs the start of the game (could be most horns, most eyes, nicest hair, most primitive, most likely to succeed).. and perhaps the criteria is draw after the monsters are drawn rather than before(though I think it could be interesting either way)

One thing I've noted in playing party games is some game components and even mechanics don't get used as intended. One of the first things to get thrown out (along with any scoring track) are the stopping conditions. I'll say the same thing I said for clarissmus' game... don't kick people out. The point of bringing out a party game is typically to be as inclusive as possible, making people sit out for any significant period of time isn't terribly inclusive.

So, with those thoughts in mind perhaps the stopping conditions should be changed such that the winner is the person who kills n monsters, which is easily extended (potentially forever) to the most monsters. So, a player would collect any monster that they kill, and when their own monster dies, they get to concoct a new one. This also makes it easy for folks to join in at random points of the game (always a plus for a party game). Adding this might even allow you to relax your "no more than 5 points of damage" rule, people might be more comfortable taking a ton of damage if they know that they get to create a new monster when they die.

I love the potential for the monsters to change during the game, I'd like to see more of that ie take 1 point of damage and lose an arm. Also cards which modify monsters by adding stuff re:the clown nose, or another horn or something... now to take this a step further, what if you had clear cards with body parts on them that you could lay on top of your monster to add an arm/leg/handbag etc? heck, why just print on the cards, you could make the cards be stencils which you could trace onto your monster. ok, it's just a thought, and stencils are probably expensive to implement, but I have seen clear card decks(see some here), so it's not impossible.

All that said, this is a great start, and when you get it refined a little bit more I'd be more than happy to test it out with my crew of willing game players.

oh, one more really great thought (even if I do say so myself :-) ) ... have you ever seen the web serial "making fiends" ? http://www.makingfiends.com/ This would make a fantastic them/name for your game. Perhaps you could even get Amy Winfrey to illustrate/contribute to your project.

peace,
Tom

Hamumu
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Game #59: Art Attack by Mike Hommel

What I've done and now printed up for use on my playtest thursday is:

1 - Added 30 more cards for 80 total. Most of the new cards use strange criteria like funniest, angriest, most motherly, most flammable, sneakiest, fuzziest, most botanical, and some other oddities. I also tried to mix it up with some things a little different than plain damage. There are a couple that stop an opponent from playing one of their 3 cards for the round, some more heals, another one that gives you a 10 second draw time (on any monster you want, how rude is that?), one that swaps two monsters' owners (it also swaps their damage, so the amount of damage stays with the player), one that lets you steal a Permanent from another player, one that links two monsters so they share damage. Hopefully I kept things fairly simple and clear, though that last card is a little complex.

2 - Changed the rule from elimination to everybody stays in for the whole game, and the game ends when, at the end of a round, only one player is left with less than 25 damage (if all players have 25 or more, the one with the least is the winner).

3 - Added the secret monster owner idea as an alternate rule. I don't think it belongs as a fundamental part of the game.

4 - Changed the monster modification time to be another 60 seconds, same as the original drawing time, just for the sake of timer components, and a little room to think.

------------
Now, to feedback:

I don't think there's anything wrong with the fastest monster going first - since you play around the table 3 times, there's only a slight advantage to being that first monster, if any at all. After all, nobody can be knocked out until the round is complete (under the new rules) so it doesn't really matter when damage is done. Going before another player can be good or bad depending on the card - a card that steals a permanent from another player is useless until the other player has had a chance to put one up, but it's also good to get your attack in before another player has a chance to put up some kind of immunity. There aren't a lot of protective cards, and if a player is immune for one round, they surely won't be in the next, so you can get them then - AND you can modify your monster to make it faster for that next round. Maybe add some racing stripes.

I actually really like the idea of collecting monsters you kill, but it doesn't quite work for this game, mainly because who wants to wait for you to draw a new one? It could be worked in, like you draw until your turn comes around again, but it's a pain, and I think it would call for much smaller 'life meters', and simpler monsters somehow. Which would really require different cards... something so that a giant eyeball with legs would be a 'valid' idea. It's not invalid in this game, but the cards in this game encourage you to really slap appendages on willy-nilly, which would wear you out a lot if you had to make 5-10 monsters in a game.

The game's still very easy to extend, though - just raise the damage limit to whatever you like. Or play 50 rounds and see who is least dead after them. No problem.

The reason for "no more than 5 damage per card" isn't actually primarily to decrease the damage people take. It's to disincentivize manic eyeball scribbling. If the rule wasn't in place, and you had "do 1 damage for each arm you have", you'd spend your whole minute creating a gigantic ball of arms, which would then have to be counted up to inflict a ridiculously punishing blow on someone. With the rule in place, you know having more than 5 is pointless, so your monster won't be as stupid looking, and there won't be an "arms race" (sorry, but it's the right term!), you don't have to spend so long counting, AND as a final bonus, nobody gets that huge fatal blow that ruins the game for them.

I saw a game with clear cards you overlay - something about a disfunctional Addam's Family type of group. I thought it was a really cool concept, and one I'd like to think about for future games.

Stencils would be really cool for a game like this, kind of cutting out some of the artistic element into more of a collage (felt pieces you stick together would be fun too, and would add an element of limited supply).

Making Fiends is the perfect name for the game, and her art is really appropriate. I was planning to draw the same kind of crappy monsters that players would probably make (maybe with a little more artistry... and a lot less appendages)... kinda like children's drawings, which is about what her art does. That's a great suggestion.

jwarrend
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Game #59: Art Attack by Mike Hommel

This is a cute idea for a game! I haven’t been following the discussion, so here are my (possibly redundant) comments:

Party Game: This is really a party game for guys. I can’t see too many ladies being interested in this. Is that ok? Sure, why not. But party games sell well primarily because of their inclusiveness; the “anyone can play” factor. Moreover, if guys are looking to play a combatitive game, do you think they’d rather play a game with little plastic pieces, or one in which they’d have to draw? Of course, none of this matters if you’re just looking to make a fun game, and I think you’re quite likely to succeed with this goal.

Learning curve: I think that the game also has something that is commonly avoided in party games, namely, a pretty steep learning curve associated with knowing what all the cards are. I suspect that the first few turns, people will pretty much draw monsters based on what their card says. For example, there’s a card that rewards the “hairiest” monster; the only person whose monster will have hair will likely be the person holding that card. The first couple of games will probably feel random and pointless as players’ fates are determined completely at the whim of the cards played by other players. I wonder if it wouldn’t be better to categorize the cards a bit, to have say 5 body parts that the cards could possibly affect, and then variation within the cards about how they affect those parts. And perhaps a “Misc.” 6th category as well to accomodate extraneous silly attributes.

Drawing ability: I can’t draw, and I really like that this game puts emphasis on what you draw rather than how well you draw.

Voting mechanic: I’ve often wanted to implement a mechanic where all players choose the “best” [whatever], but couldn’t find a way to make it air tight. I think that yours will work because it’s a laid back game. Do let us know how it works in testing. My only concern is that discussions/arguments, while fun, could burn up a lot of time, which may or may not be bad.

Replay: My biggest concern is the replay factor. The game is simple, and that’s good, but I can’t see wanting to play more than a couple of times. There is some variety to the cards, but it’s bounded. In a way, I think that it might be better to do away with cards and have discussions that run like this: “But of course my adamantium turbo claws cut through your kevlar body armor!” But the cards do the nice job of providing a context and an arbiter for those conflicts. However, they also may limit creativity; no one will draw “turbo claws” if there isn’t a card that rewards such. So the game will basically be about drawing features that your cards reward, and that you think are on cards that may be held by the others.

But it isn’t even the boundedness of drawings, because that’s solvable by adding more cards. I think it’s more the repetiveness in the mechanic. It’s really just: draw monsters/find the fastest monster/resolve card effects. I don’t know how many playings this will feel interesting over. Hopefully at least as many as it takes to see all the cards, but maybe not many more than that. What if there were more scope to the game; maybe the monsters aren’t just fighting, maybe they’re competing in different “monster” events, like running a race, or demolishing a skyscraper, or fixing a toilet, or whatever bizarre monster competitions you can imagine. So then the cards can be about more than dealing out combat damage, which would possibly bring in the ladies, and perhaps could add more variety and fun if done well.

As an example of what I mean, maybe the game would involve a card being revealed which was to set the competition for the turn: perhaps this turn it's a "gravel eating contest". Then players draw their monsters, and argue why the attributes they've drawn are most apt for the contest. "My mega teeth can chomp right through that stuff!" "My lead stomach can digest gravel easily". etc. Then players vote on whose monster is best (or could have a judge a la Apples to Apples). It would be a completely different game, of course.

Overall, I think it sounds like a very creative game idea, and I think it will be fun to play. Nice job!

-Jeff

Hamumu
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Game #59: Art Attack by Mike Hommel

Gameplay report of sorts:

We were supposed to play with another couple tonight, but they called in sick. So we were left with watching Dodgeball, then playing a single 2-player round of Art Attack. The game is not designed for 2 players, and as I suspected, it doesn't really work with 2. But it WAS quite fun, and here's what we learned:

1 - 25 damage may be too much. I thought it'd be over in a couple rounds at most, but it lasted about 4, maybe 5. Now, this is partly because we were only 2 players, so only a little damage could get dished out, while with more players, the damage would add up a lot more quickly (and as a bonus, many attacks affect multiple victims, so even faster). But still, I think 25 will be a little slower than I intended. I think our game ran close to 45 minutes (probably should've kept track, huh?). 20 will be better.

2 - The Speed Check is the BEST part of the game! This was totally unexpected. At first, it was no big deal, my monster had 4 feet, hers was fat and dumpy, I go first. But since you get to edit your monster between rounds, while I really didn't do anything about it (never gave it enough thought! It's HARD to hold the info of all your cards in your head at once), my wife did something new and ridiculous each turn to try to ensure she'd be fastest. Having that known quantity to shoot for encourages a silly one-upmanship. The first round, she put nikes on his feet. The second round, that changed to high heels (gave me the speed for that round, but it let her get me on "prettiest"). The third round, the legs were gone, replaced by tank treads. The fourth round is where I really saw the beauty of it: she added a speedometer reading "60mph". Just little touches each round to maintain her speed superiority.

3 - A small subtle issue was noticed which will be clarified in the rules: Permanent cards stay with their owner forever (barring the new "Pickpocket" card I added). It could be interpreted that they switch ownership if the artwork changes, since the cards read, for example "The monster that looks most like a vampire heals 1 damage each time it hurts someone". If somebody adjusted their picture to look more vampirey, you might think they'd steal the card away. And while that WOULD be fun, because it would be like the Speed Check on crack, I think it bogs the game down in too many arguments. So that's the one simple rule clarification I see the need to add: Permanents don't change hands unless pickpocketed.

4 - Tally marks don't really work when you've got healing going on. A scoring track would be really nice, although we did nicely once we switched to just writing the number and scratching out the previous.

5 - The game really felt quite strategic (well, sorta), much more than I expected. I made several boneheaded moves, and they were true mistakes in play, not dumb luck. I did win in the end though. Which makes me also add that the game stayed very close throughout (ended with a come-from-behind 28-24 victory), though I was behind for most of it - the various immunity cards were pretty powerful in a 2-player game. But anyway, there really felt like legitimate strategic choices, and sometimes I had more than 3 useful cards, and I planned ahead to use one later.

6 - Some arguments were a little iffy and would've probably been ugly if we were playing in a cutthroat fashion (then again, the rule of discarding the vote of the person who played the card would've solved that very quickly, but perhaps not to everyone's satisfaction). Others weren't arguments at all. For instance, it was fun when I put down the "hairiest monster shoots quills at a target for 3" card, and she went "OH, that's why you added a giant afro after the last round!". Lots of times, at least with just two monsters to compare, there was no way to argue, it was a given which one would apply. Which was snappy and quick and often fun - sometimes boring and disappointing for one player, but over so quickly it doesn't hurt much. Arguments too were often fun, so it worked either way.

7 - Cards that render a monster immune to everything for a round seem overpowered, but they would be less powerful in a larger game. They'd still make you invincible, but the odds of any one person having one on any given round would be much lower, and there'd be other people you could attack while you await your revenge. I think they could definitely be toned down, and I might change a couple of them to weaker, but I'm not going to go too far based on just a 2-player game.

It looks like this game will be extremely chaotic with 4 or more players, but not in a random dumb luck way, rather in a "multiple layers of strategy which may not actually be valid but you can't help engaging in them anyway" way. If you see what I mean. In other words, it went even better than I hoped! Not perfect, but it'll take a legitimate playtest or two to really know for sure how good or bad it is. It went well enough that we'd both enjoy playing 2-player again in the future, even though it is clearly broken with 2 players.

RookieDesign
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Joined: 12/31/1969
Game #59: Art Attack by Mike Hommel

Reading the comments and feedback I remember an old game that was publish in Dragon 1987. Clay-O-Rama.

No relation with the Art Attack here but a nice touch of Clay figures fighting. Read the rules at http://www.portcommodore.com/gaming/clayorama.pdf.

It could be fun and inspiring for other designers.

I remember playing Clay Fighters on Nintendo. Ok not a boardgame but in the same spirit of Art characters fighting each other.

Have a good day.

Anonymous
Game #59: Art Attack by Mike Hommel

roberto wrote:
Hello

Quote:
I'm not up on all the games out there in the world... but there hasn't ever been one like this, has there? It seemed like a very original concept (possibly for good reason).

Your game reminds me another one: 1000 blank cards.

http://www.geocities.com/nconner23/bwcards.html

I haven't played this one, but its creator emphasizes that it doesn't matter who wins, so you can imagine the degree of chaos.

However, I think yours is still very original. Good luck!

Roberto

I would agree that this is A LOT like 1000 Blank White Cards. The only question I have is the appeal factor (if you were to take this game and try to get it published), because 1000BWC, while it has its fans, doesn't have very many. I guess that could be argued as a difference of opinion, but that's just my thoughts.

-snipy3

Hamumu
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Joined: 12/31/1969
Game #59: Art Attack by Mike Hommel

You really think this is A LOT like 1000BWC? I'd agree they are similar in that they involve drawing things... and that's about it! Art Attack is actually more similar to what kids do, drawing a monster and going "my monster's laser eyes can fry your monster!". 1000BWC involves drawing the cards you play with, and being random and wacky. Art Attack is a (slightly) strategic game about drawing what is right to do well with the cards you are given (and then more importantly, playing the best cards depending on what everyone has drawn).

I think limited appeal is a possible point of concern, and someone else pointed out a little gender bias to it as well, but I'm surprised to hear such a strong connection to this other game being made. To me that seems like comparing Monopoly to Life - they both involve moving around a board. Maybe I'm being blinded, but I really see little connection between them. 1000BWC isn't even really a game at all, more of an organized screwing around experience (tm).

I do hope to get this game published (I hope to get any of them published!), and while there's lots to be concerned with, such as it being way out there and weird, I think this is far more of a true game than 1000BWC, and that is where the real difference lies in potential appeal. It's hard to imagine a publisher picking it up though... let's hope!

MattMiller
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Joined: 12/31/1969
Game #59: Art Attack by Mike Hommel

I'm not sure you'll have a problem with limited appeal of drawing games. After all, your game can also be compared with Pictionary, which wasn't exactly a flop (at least as far as I know). I think you're right that what limits the appeal of 1000 Blank White Cards is that it isn't really a game -- no real winners and losers.

What might be an issue for you is that, as it stands now, your game would probably break if played by cutthroats who just want to win. I suspect that some potential buyers' reactions might be "I don't get it. Why don't you just vote for your own drawing every time?" Note that Pictionary doesn't have this issue. Nor does Apples to Apples (which shares the subjective nature of your game). 1000 Blank White Cards, on the other hand, not only breaks but completely vanishes if any player is just out to win. So this might be the issue that leads to limited appeal, rather than anything to do with drawing.

I wonder whether there might be some clever tweak to your game that would make it robust against non-friendly play. If such a change didn't distract from the core qualities of the game, it might widen its appeal.

'Course, I'm just an amatuer, so I can't really say that I know what I'm talking about.

-- Matt

Hamumu
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Joined: 12/31/1969
Game #59: Art Attack by Mike Hommel

I noticed when I got my "playtest" in (me & my wife) that it felt like it could be a problem if we had been cutthroat. Of course, that's partly because we only had 2 players, which is a pretty serious deadlock (the game is designed for 3 or more). The one little rule to compensate for that is that if you can't come to an agreement, then you discard the vote of the person who played the card. That may not actually be enough to create agreement there (like say, everybody is voting for their own!), but it's closer.

It's not quite as bad as it seems, simply because you can't justifiably claim a lot of things. My wife had a big fat monster, and mine was kind of tall and skinny. I had the card "Biggest monster squishes the smallest for 3 damage" and I just kept it in my hand, because I knew there was no way I could try to claim mine was the biggest. I gradually tried to expand my monster, but never really was anywhere I thought would do the job. There were other things that were more iffy, and there were quite a few arguments where it came down to "oh, alright, it's yours", which wouldn't happen in cutthroat. But then again, you're not supposed to play with 2 people, so the dynamic would be very different, and there's the discarded vote balance aspect - you have to play a card you know is hard to dispute, because you're the one with the least valid vote.

It's looser than other games, but still kind of in the same realm - if someone cheats, they're a cheater and it's not fun, nothing I can do about it. The looseness makes that a little more dangerous, but we'll have to see how it plays out in testing. I think that probably is the biggest problem in the game. It could even lead to protracted arguments that are just no fun at all. Let's hope not!

Anonymous
Game #59: Art Attack by Mike Hommel

Hamumu wrote:
You really think this is A LOT like 1000BWC?

To each his own I guess...

I've never played 1000BWC, I've read the rules and drawn my own cards, so I guess I don't REALLY know. Sorry if I offended you that was not my intention.

Hamumu
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Joined: 12/31/1969
Game #59: Art Attack by Mike Hommel

No offense taken, I just don't understand where you're coming from. I was hoping you'd offer some explanation!

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