Skip to Content
 

Health Tracking vs. Threshold Mechanics in Game Design

23 replies [Last post]
X3M
X3M's picture
Offline
Joined: 10/28/2013

Many games use the threshold mechanic, where if you reach sufficient damage, the target is simply gone.

Other games rely on health tracking, where every point of damage is recorded over time.

Choosing between these two systems alters game pacing, player tension, and tactical decision-making.


Core Definitions

Health Tracking

  • The Concept: Characters possess a pool of Hit Points (HP) that ticks down with each successful attack.
  • The Feel: A gradual, predictable wear-and-tear process.
  • Examples: Dungeons & Dragons, Final Fantasy, Pokémon.

Threshold Mechanics

  • The Concept: Damage does not accumulate sequentially; instead, a single (or multiple) hit(s) must cross a specific numerical value to cause an effect or elimination.
  • The Feel: Sudden, high-stakes moments where attacks either succeed completely or fail entirely.
  • Examples: Savage Worlds (Toughness rating), Mutants & Masterminds, tactical miniatures games.

Direct Comparison

Health Tracking (HP Pool)

  • Pacing: Predictable and steady.
  • Bookkeeping: High (constant math/tracking).
  • Low-Damage Attacks: Always useful (chipping away).
  • Player feeling: Wearing down an opponent.

Threshold Mechanics (Pass/Fail)

  • Pacing: Explosive and sudden.
  • Bookkeeping: Low (binary yes/no checks).
  • Low-Damage Attacks: Useless if below the minimum.
  • Player feeling: Hunting for the perfect strike.

Design Trade-Offs

Why Choose Health Tracking?

  • Granular Progress: Players feel rewarded for small actions because every hit matters.
  • Easy Balancing: Designers can easily scale difficulty by tweaking numerical HP pools.
  • Risk Management: Players can calculate exactly how many turns they can survive.

Why NOT Choose Health Tracking?

  • Math Fatigue: Players and game masters must constantly record, add, and subtract numbers, which slows down the pace.
  • The Death Spiral: When a player's HP gets very low, they often know they will lose, making the final turns feel hopeless instead of exciting.
  • Lack of Realism with Armor: Small, weak attacks still chip away at massive steel armor or giant monsters, which can break immersion.

Why Choose Threshold Mechanics?

  • Cinematic Tension: Creates dramatic "all-or-nothing" moments where a single lucky roll changes the game.
  • Speed of Play: Eliminates the need to constantly subtract and record small numbers.
  • Realism: Simulates environments where armor completely deflects small hits, but succumbs to massive blows.

Why NOT Choose Threshold Mechanics?

  • Frustrating "Nothing" Turns: If an attack falls just short of the threshold, it feels like wasted effort and does zero progress.
  • Extreme RNG Swings: Dice rolls or damage values that rely heavily on luck can lead to instant player deaths or anticlimactic boss fights.
  • Harder Fine-Tuning: It is difficult to balance encounters because small changes to the threshold can make a game either impossibly hard or way too easy.

Hybrid Systems

Many modern games blend these two mechanics to capture the benefits of both while mitigating their flaws. Here are the most common implementations:

1. Shields Over Health (The Buffer Hybrid)

  • How it works: A character has a small health pool (Health Tracking), but it is protected by a shield or armor rating (Threshold). Attacks below the threshold are entirely absorbed by the shield, but massive attacks break through to damage the health pool directly.
  • The Benefit: Protects players from being chipped to death by weak enemies while preventing sudden, frustrating one-shot deaths.
  • Why NOT Choose This: It creates double the bookkeeping. Players must track two separate layers of defense simultaneously. Additionally, if shields regenerate too quickly, low-damage characters or builds become entirely unviable.

2. Wound Thresholds (The Multi-Stage Hybrid)

  • How it works: Characters have a standard HP pool. However, if a single attack deals damage exceeding a specific "Wound Threshold," the character suffers a permanent injury or status penalty, regardless of how much total HP they have left.
  • The Benefit: Retains the steady progress of tracking health bars, but introduces the high-stakes tension of avoiding massive, single-strike blows.
  • Why NOT Choose This: It frequently causes a severe "snowball effect." A player who takes a heavy hit is penalized with a status penalty, making them even more likely to take another heavy hit, rapidly ruining their chances of recovery.

3. Grace Periods / Death's Door (The Fatal Hybrid)

  • How it works: Health is tracked normally until it reaches zero. Instead of immediate elimination, the game shifts to a threshold state. The character enters a "downed" status where any single subsequent hit above a specific threshold will eliminate them permanently.
  • The Benefit: Allows for precise tactical combat during the main game, but injects intense cinematic drama when a character is on the brink of defeat.
  • Why NOT Choose This: It can trivialize the threat of regular combat. If players know they always have a safety net at zero health, they may play recklessly, destroying the tactical tension of managing their core HP pool.

Cheers, X3M

PS. Yes, I let AI help me write this document. But I am the directors cut, sort to speak. This particular AI would get a raise from me, no doubt.

questccg
questccg's picture
Online
Joined: 04/16/2011
It's funny...

I've been talking about "Threshold" Mechanics like 6 Months ago. Although I did NOT call it like that. I was thinking it was "All-or-Nothing" type of Combat. But I guess that term is more accurate.

So I wanted propose some additional ideas:

questccg wrote:
In your GAME, you have five (5) AREAS each with a SPECIFIC GOAL. Like First Player to bring 500 "Points" of Minis wins that area. Or be the first player to destroy 10 "Units" of Minis win that area. Or be the first player to have 200 "Points" of Minis controlling that area, etc. etc.

The idea being that the game has more fluid battle dynamics.

Yes I LIKE "Threshold" Mechanics. Harder to BALANCE but easier to play and to do the MATH at the table too...

Another RULE could be first player to CONTROL "3" out of "5" Areas WINS the game... "3" and "5" are just placeholders... You can substitute what you prefer.

questccg wrote:
Each AREA could say the NUMBER of CONTROL POINTS. Normally "1" but in some cases "2" or even "3"... And the VICTORY condition could be "5" Points to WIN!

These are just IDEAS... I wanted to share with everyone. Pending @X3M's review of this thread and comment.

Cheers!

questccg
questccg's picture
Online
Joined: 04/16/2011
It's a wargame... so

I think it's OKAY to have combat ending up being 75%+ of the action going on. I mean it's a "wargame" for a REASON: you battle your opponent and that is the FOCUS of the game.

Having said this... You may not want it to be 100% where the Victory Condition is to destroy the ENEMY base... Because that could drag out things a bit and make the game SLOW to a crawl if players duke it out.

Sure "Destroy the enemy Base" is ONE (1) Victory Condition.

But I was trying to find an alternate solution which means that maybe it COULD be about AREA CONTROL given a "King of the Hill" Mechanic or rules to each area and what constitutes CONTROL of an AREA.

Now I'm not sure which will be EASIER: conquer the opponent BASE or CONTROLLING a specific AMOUNT of AREA. That IDK... Could maybe vary according to the RULES of each AREA and the total amount of combat needed to WIN CONTROL.

IDK if any of these ideas have any value to you. I'm just suggesting them because it might be a way to speed up a game and not make it last more than a couple of hours (maybe even 90 minutes).

And if you need confirmation that "King of the Hill" Scenario is in the spirit of a "wargame", I offer up the scenario in the original Starcraft:

https://starcraft.fandom.com/wiki/King_of_the_Hill

I'm not saying using a TIMER or anything like that. But that EACH AREA has some kind of WIN CONDITION. The player that WINS enough AREAS could also be a winner of the game... Not necessarily 100% combat victory.

I think this type of AREA CONTROL would make the game feel less like it's ONLY about COMBAT (100%) and maybe be like partial combat but partial conquest (75%) and that could go and make the gameplay a bit more fluid and variable...

Enough for now. These are just some of my thoughts after READING your OP...

Best.

X3M
X3M's picture
Offline
Joined: 10/28/2013
This is my experience so far

Not looking for advice or anything. And I could take a look at the things you suggested for research purposes. Eventually, the math is only my work.

When I go through my initial post. I now start at the Design Trade-Offs.

Health Tracking

I come from RTS gaming. Which all include health tracking. All the pros mentioned are what got me initially into Health Tracking for years.
Though, Health Tracking can be a tedious buisness. Depending on how you track health, you have a lot of handling. So, I reduced it to little whiteboard chips that would contain only a number of remaining health.
Then, I proceeded to offer the players a chance to focus on damaged targets first. So the number of whiteboard chips would be kept to a minimal.

Math Fatigue, I saw it happen a couple of times. We took a break. Even I had some Math Fatigue, despite sorting the dice, etc. This because we had also choices in how to allocate the damage value's. But perhaps this is more of an analasys paralasys. The group had minimal problems in this. But we figured, other gamers might have a lot of problems.

There were no problems with a Death Spiral. Because we had retreat options as well. And there are no problems with Lack of Realism....hey, it's a game. We loved the chipping away. Because it meant, the target could also go into retreat for repairs back home. Oops, there comes the Hit'n'Run glass cannon to intercept.

Threshold Mechanics
Well, the only reason why this is a good choice for me is the lack of Health Tracking. No little whiteboard chips.

I cannot discover realism. Sure, a tank can survive 8 rifle hits. But that 9th rifle hit finished the tank off. The rest is shadow math. And this is only the first layer of Threshold Mechanics too.

The Threshold Mechanics that make use of the hidden RPS system. Has itself to bring in some balance. But adding a second layer of Threshold Mechanics that is completely based on HP, seems to be a no-go.

If the balance is off, I can't seem to accept the outcomes. It is really a do or do not. The finetuning of balance is very hard. Especially if you limit the forces in sizes.

When comparing with Health Tracking, the size of a force helped bringing balance. With Threshold Mechanics, this seems to be a no go. And the bigger a force that is allowed, the whole set of numbers has to change as well. With Health Tracking, this is simply auto balanced.

***

That said. It has no use thinking of scenarios. Wheter we use a base or not. Wheter we do king-of-the-hill or not. If we cannot even get a nice balanced combat going.

It is taking me away from the primairy problem. By being distracted by possible future problems.

I possibly will discard trying to get this game working at this point. Especially if I am only sharing information and initially didn't put info/questions about the game I am working on in the OP.

My initial idea was to have others share their knowledge and experiences on the 2 mechanics. This topic was for others, not me.

larienna
larienna's picture
Offline
Joined: 07/28/2008
I think one of the advantage

I think one of the advantage of the threshold mechanics is the compression of of the components.

You could have 2 sided unit token for half and full units. Give units 2 threshold or like 2 armor level. For example:

Unit has an armor level of 3 and 8.

If a unit receive damage greater than 8 completely destroyed
If a unit receive damage greater than 3, it gets damaged.
If unit receive damage lower than 3, no effect.

Now depending if the attack value is random or deterministic, it could lead to situations where a unit can never be destroyed. Accumulating small damages does not work. But 2 weak unit, that can damage between 3-7 could take down that unit. Or 2 successive attack in that range can kill it. So weaker strength either required grouping on the target, or will cost you more time.

This way you can have a map with tons of units and it could still be manageable. I think "Skirmish Advanced" (an advance war clone board game) used a similar mechanics. But in their case, an half strength attacker got it's attack value reduced. That could also lead to different attack opportunities.

X3M
X3M's picture
Offline
Joined: 10/28/2013
I think it is one of the hybrids mentioned?

And did the new threshold get lower as well?
Like 3/8 then just 3?
In a sense, 2 attacks that both reach 3 would be enough. Then again, if the rule is to add up all damage first, then check.

So, how does it work?
And what values work best for you?

questccg
questccg's picture
Online
Joined: 04/16/2011
How 99.99% of designers make their games

X3M wrote:
So, how does it work? And what values work best for you?

I think he explained it quite clearly. For you, your TYPE of "Balance" is some kind of Universal equation that works for all units the same way.

Most people don't design like that. As @larienna was proposing ONE (1) Unit could have 3/8 "threshold" mechanics but you need to DESIGN "each UNIT" yourself and NOT have some kind of complicated formula that makes everything "work" as you are looking for.

@larienna's example is for ONE unit. You would need to DEFINE each UNIT "separately" rather than have a universal formula.

So how does it work? @larienna explained the principle: the thresholds for each unit need to be define for each one and would be DIFFERENT for each Unit.

If you do over 'x' (>= 'x') damage, the unit(s) is defeated.

If you do over 'y' (< 'x') damage, the unit(s) are damaged and you place the damage token on that unit.

If you do less than 'y' (< 'y') no damage.

The second part to your question is: "What values work best?" Well that is to be defined for each Unit. You would have an Excel Spreadsheet with each unit and their respective thresholds.

If you were designing a "Card Game" you can put the thresholds directly on the "Unit/Card" itself.

And this too is something that I've tried to explain to you before... But you seem "STUCK" with the concept of a Universal Formula to balance everything when most "Games" just approximate values and do a lot of playtesting to ensure that not any one (1) Unit/Group/Card is too overly powerful.

That's how most designers BALANCE their games.

But I guess this is not the way YOU see games being designed and have probably ignored 99.99% of how MOST people design games.

Note #1: Note that I did not say you were WRONG to design your own way. It's just not done like that by most designers. And so where you rely on mathematics ... We rely on game data. Our balance is not mathematically computed... It is determined through playtesting and seeing how each Unit/Card performs on the battlefield.

This is why "Starcraft 1" the original release had the "Zergs" too powerful for the initial RUSH and destroy an opponent's base FAST... And therefore NERFED that the speed and strength of those Zerglings in the NEXT PATCH. So even Video Game designers don't get it all right RIGHT AWAY. Some times it takes iterations of playing to determine what needs to be corrected.

Board and Card Games don't have that luxury... And so they do playtest to ensure that there is no EXTREME imbalance. And that means yeah players exploit advantages and so forth.

Look at Pokémon First Edition: people realized that some cards were stronger than the rest and then built their decks with only the STRONGEST of cards to battle their opponents.

Sh!t like that happens all the time. Even in Magic: the Gathering. They often make cards that are too powerful such that they are out-of-rotation for Standard and Modern variants.

Anyhow... I'm just trying to explain something that you may not understand and you have your own way of doing things. That's something you NEED to understand otherwise the rest of us cannot help you BALANCE "mathematical" equations which you seem to believe are the ONLY way to design a game. And that is simply not true...

questccg
questccg's picture
Online
Joined: 04/16/2011
Here's what I mean

In "Starcraft 1" the original Game made by Blizzard Entertainment... The Zergs Race has a RUSH ability. The idea was simple:

Build Zerglings FAST and then send them to an enemy's Base somewhere in the MAP.

They were too effective and a clan of 6 or so Zerglings could wipe out an enemy base or the gathering units quickly and then proceed to wreak havoc over the enemy base.

So let's pretend we ARE "Blizzard" and the statement we need to BALANCE is:

Blizzard wrote:
The Zergs are too efficient in the initial game RUSH.

What can we as designers do to FIX this SPECIFIC issue???

Let's run through the list of possibilities:

Blizzard wrote:
We can make Zerglings SLOWER in SPEED.
We can make Zerglings WEAKER in HEALTH.
We can make Zerglings less effective by dealing LESS DAMAGE.
We can slow the production of Zerglings (Time to hatch).
We can increase the cost to produce Zerglings (Cost to produce).
etc. etc.

There are multiple paths to NERFING a unit. And once you realize a Unit/Group/Card are too powerful or too weak... You may want to leave it AS-IS and let the players figure it out... Like in Pokémon... Or you can NERF their ability to cause Havoc given some of the examples that I have provided.

The REALITY is there is no "perfect" solution. Usually everything is playtested before producing a game and others take different approaches to which Units/Groups/Cards are allowed in Tournament Play (like Magic).

It's not a UNIQUE problem to your game. It happens to ALL games.

Anyhow... I don't know if you will understand or not. I've tried on numerous occasions to explain... Maybe @larienna can explain BETTER how to BALANCE a game.

Cheers.

X3M
X3M's picture
Offline
Joined: 10/28/2013
I think...

That you just want to be told that you are wrong.

questccg
questccg's picture
Online
Joined: 04/16/2011
This is too much WORK!

Right... It takes a LONG time to make a "balanced" game. Most games never achieve a "perfect" balance either. As long as the game feels reasonable for most of your playtesters ... That is usually a sign that you've done enough TESTING and that your game doesn't have any erratic Units/Groups/Cards in the game.

BUT there is a "short cut". And I've explained it here before. It's called the "Design Space" and it is methodology created by Lead Designer at WotC Mark Rosewater. Actually I'm not 100% sure if Mark "created" the methodology or if it was also part of Richard Garfield's methods of designing.

The methodology exists to help AUDIT your game and all its components.

Most people struggle to find enough CONTENT for their game. Otherwise they are mostly stuck with mechanics as defined in UNO (no I'm serious designing for some people can be a very difficult challenge).

The "Design Space" methodology allows you to enumerate ALL of the game's component and then from that AUDIT, determine what kind of EFFECTS one can create which are synergistic with both the designers interests and also add "meat" to a game which is failing due to insufficient content.

Now the "Design Space" may not seem to be the best way to BALANCE a game... It does go a LONG way in figuring out: "What do you have? What can you add? etc. etc." And sometimes when designing a CARD you can have multiple variations and different effects/abilities and that's also a way to design BALANCE in "some" games (not all).

So MANY people struggle with creating 50 cards let alone 10,000+. That's a major hurdle for many designers and intrinsic to designing with the "Design Space" is also a "sorta" way to BALANCE the cards given RULES that you define.

Also remember that even WotC "break" their own RULES and BALANCE and create at times overly powerful cards that cannot be used in Standard or Modern variants of the game. So they create BALANCE and then (sometimes) they break it... For those exceptionally rare cards that encourage most players to have that card in their Deck(s).

Again just sharing ... Because this is another WAY to BALANCE a game too...!

Cheers all.

questccg
questccg's picture
Online
Joined: 04/16/2011
Sometimes the RULES come from the Card's own ARTISTIC Design

Look at my Mystery game: Values of STATS go from 0 to 6 due to DESIGN LIMITATIONS based on how the "Card Template" was designed. It's got nothing to do with Math or anything similar: it's a physical constraint imposed by the design. And I'm not ever sure that "0" should be a value (this could be a RULE).

But when designing some kind of Unit ... I COULD "break that rule" and create a sort of Glass Cannon (6 Attack and 0 Defense). A possibility ... But ATM I am NOT considering that kind of unit. I'm sticking to the RULE of no "0" STAT values.

So sometimes the ART itself decides what the STATs are going to be.

Are you going to say that the TEMPLATE is incorrect??? No that's how the ART affects the game. Happens. Not all the time... But on some occasions.

Anyhow suffice to say we DESIGN games differently. You are not WRONG to design your way. And I design differently too. But I don't struggle with Balance. I don't worry too much about the MATH because I'm not into formulaic design. I have my own unique approach and I often reply on the "Design Space" to take me from 50 cards to 200+ cards (for example). I'm currently at 210. But I have to RE-AUDIT the components because of some cards types that were added and some of the RULES that need to be added.

Note #1: Here is a bit of a definition of the "Design Space":

WotC wrote:
Design Space defines how many differentiated game elements (cards, weapons, characters, moves, enemies, obstacles, projectiles, etc.) you can create from the base mechanics of your game.

It's important to note that the "Possibility Space" encompasses EVERYTHING in your game and that the "Design Space" is a SUBSET given the mechanics in your game. Why is this???

Because often we will find "elements" in the "Possibility Space" which we CANNOT use in the "Design Space" in the final version of our games. You'll have to TRY it on your own and then you will see SOME "elements" yield very little when it comes to being useful when making more "cards", "units", "abilities", "events", etc. etc.

Note #2: Sometimes some "elements" in a game don't yield compatibility with a "Mechanic" ... Like "A Card" and then a Mechanic like "Flip a Card". In some games that COULD be useful... In others not... Because the card backs are all the same and yield no better information or "STATS" or "Data", etc. etc.

Note #3: Using the same "element" ("A Card") in Magic you have a "Mechanic" which is "Rotate a Card 90 degrees" to TAP a Card...

Different Mechanic on the SAME "element" may yield different results in various games. Again this is just an example for completeness sake.

larienna
larienna's picture
Offline
Joined: 07/28/2008
One way to balance a group on

One way to balance a group on units without considering the synnergies is to have a combat matrix where each unit is facing another unit and you determine with win loose ratio based on the probabilities.

When I tried to design my rats craft game, and maybe my star craft board game variant, results were deterministic, or almost. So I could know that unit A could defeat unit C,D,G, but not B,E,F. You could almost do that with magic cards, take a dozen of cards, make match up determine the winner.

In age of mythology board game, the resolution use dices, but in this case you use probabilities to win, like A vs C = 60%, A vs B = 20%, etc. Put everything in a matrix, then can sum the number of units in threshold range, or just sum the probabilities to know how well a unit could be. Still having even probabilities, like 30% vs all would probably be less efficient even if the sum is highers.

now in the example above with 2 threshold, you could play on the value level, but you could also play on the differences between both values. like an 2/9 unit vs a 4/5 unit. It gives you more possible value composition.

I think math is great for balancing unit strength, but I would not make unit values come directly from a math formula else it will feel too artificial. Math should evaluate probabilities, payout,etc. Also don't expect your numbers to be perfect, they should not. Special benefits could patch irregular balance.

larienna
larienna's picture
Offline
Joined: 07/28/2008
Its interesting that you will

Its interesting that you will get different behavior whether if you keep the value between both numbers high or low.

If you have very large difference like 2/9, that means that almost any 2 units will be able to damage a single unit. So you get a 2 to 1 kill ratio.

If you have a very thin difference, like 7/9, then it will almost be like having a single number, but a it more flexible.

You could design the units backwards. Design the resolution matrix first, then apply the numbers to make game behave like the matrix.

You could also combine unit attacks together to exceed threshold if there is no randomness.

Out of my mind, maybe a stratego game with 2 values. That could work, maybe? as long you can push units or backtrack units. I used a similar system for my card game (CCG like) idea. Considering card games are deterministic, it gives more flexibility.

questccg
questccg's picture
Online
Joined: 04/16/2011
Another option for tracking Damage

Talking some more about Damage Tokens, are you saying:

#1> No Damage Token = 100% HP.

#2> Side 1 Damage Token = 50% HP.

#2> Side 2 Damage Token = 25% HP.

#3> Remove the Side 2 Damage Token and dies = 0% HP.

Something like that??? If not ... It could be a better use than just a PLAIN old Damage Token: the HP decreases by 50% each successful HIT!

I'm not a big "Wargamer" so I'm not sure if this is what you mean when better using a Damage Token...???

Note #1: Just to explain where this is coming from!? @larienne suggested threshold values and different purposes for Damage and the use of Damage Tokens. This Backside IDEA came to mind... But I'm not sure this is what @larienna had in mind.

questccg
questccg's picture
Online
Joined: 04/16/2011
I have ANOTHER IDEA...

This one may be even BETTER Than the 2 Sides.

questccg wrote:
How about using COLOR Damage Tokens for different percentages (%)

Magenta => Purple => Blue => Cyan => Green => Yellow => Orange => Red.

Each Unit has an PERCENTAGE (%) indicators and a COLOR indicators.

Meaning each Unit can be different from the next in terms DAMAGE indication.

So like 8 Riflemen can have:

None = 100% => 16 HP (2 HP Each)
Green = 50% > 8 => 8 HP
Yellow = 25% > 4 => 4 HP
Red = 12.5% > 2 => 2 HP

Would something like this be of ANY value??? Like I'm such a newbie to designing "Wargames" ... I think @X3M must have already thought of this... Since he found Damage Tracking to be TEDIOUS. But this method ONLY requires ONE (1) Token per Group of Units.

I've never heard him talk about this... So either he knows about it and finds it too challenging to do Health Tracking or this is something NEW to consider.

IDK... I'll just post it and see if anyone can do better off of this...

Note #1: Why the COLORS??? Well some units can have 3 COLORS of Tokens... Some can have 4 or 5 COLORS making more variations of thresholds and the percent damage (and HP values). This is a VERY dynamic approach to BOTH "Damage Tracking" AND "Threshold Mechanics"...!

X3M
X3M's picture
Offline
Joined: 10/28/2013
Yes and No's

What is tedious?
I never had problems with health tracking.
I still got my whiteboard markers.
And in a sense, they could be intergrated into a miniature.
That, and coloured indicators can work too.

It is just the handling for other players and the math that comes along if I keep the numbers too big.
That is the tedious part.

What is less tedious?
Another project of mine was levitating between threshold and health tracking.
For that project, I eventually had chosen health tracking with a 1, 2, 4 and 8 damage indicator. And up to 16 health would be easily possible to track.
Thus, keeping things as minimal and simple as possible. While keeping health tracking. It was actually working, but still required good planning on making a map and desisning the units.
Doubling the health wasn't entirely correct though.

Weight 1.0, Health 1
Weight 1.5, Health 2
Weight 2.0, Health 4
Weight 3.0, Health 8
Weight 4.0, Health 16

In my prototype game, I have 9 health for the weight 3.
Another design rule that emerges from this list is that I am NOT allowed to get health, 3, 5, 7 etc.?
Well, I still did. It didn't hurt the game that much either, since health, was tracked.

Picking units that fell outside of the binairy system, had the opposite of synergy. De-synergy?

As for @larienna
I indeed considered backtracking from results to see what numbers would work best. I ran many simulations myself. And while health tracking always gets me a weight factor that is balanced for the entire game. Threshold doesn't allow for much room. The RPS system that emerges through my weight factors being less than the health or armor value's is kinda broken with threshold.

Well, the RPS with the armor value's is not. Since you got this weapon is good versus this armor kind of deal.
But once the extra hit points come in, that is when things get imbalanced.

I won't post the math here.
What I wanted was based on hit points, not armor (endgame):
Infantry gets defeated by vehicles.
Vehicles gets defeated by tanks.
Tanks gets defeated by infantry.

But the end result is vehicles defeating both infantry AND tanks all over the place.

A nice RPS for the 3 all round classes. Is what I wanted again. Alas, it did not happen.

Now what?
Perhaps I am looking at it in a wrong way.
After all, with certain game rules, 1 cheapest soldier can block 1 strongest tank. If it has one more movement point in the game.
And having 40 of them against 10 tanks, suddenly resulting in a landslide victory for the infantry is just silly.

Math
Please consider the following numbers (sorry, math)
1 armor, 1 damage, cost 1, infantry
3 armor, 3 damage, cost 2, vehicles
9 armor, 9 damage, cost 4, tanks
These are the 3 all round units. And the damage can hit only one target (as usual in my games)

You need 9 hits of 1 damage to even destroy 1 tank.
The average chance to hit is 50%.
The tipping point is having 9 times the forces.
A force is 4 infantry, or 2 vehicles or 1 tank.
So, the tipping point is 36 infantry versus 9 tanks. And the fun part is that 40 infantry versus 10 tanks is already a 70% winchance for the infantry.

Thus, if I want to allow players to pull a strategy like this, I should allow the players to have that many units in a force.

Reverse engineering
So, in the end. It could as well be possible that each new design needs to be tested against all other designs (ignoring synergy). And base a cost on that. As you suggested.

I was already heading in that direction. But realized that if I design 3 units with a certain result in mind. A 4th one would immediately bring an imbalance. Sure I can determine the weight of the 4th unit. But the first 3 units will have different results regardless. And thus, those should be getting a new weight as well.
The only way to counter? A 5th one? A 6th one? I need to test, more and more. And reverse math for combat resolution is much harder than just simulating.

A super matrix is easily possible. It just needs time.
But...I always want to go beyond the super matrix.
My goal has always been "all options open".
Which is only possible with health tracking.

***

Where did I find my problem?
So, I was having fun using the threshold mechanic, based on armor and damagy types. It worked. We had a decent turning point as well. And synergy was also good.

Then I wanted to add a roll that would increase the health on random note. But had to take a step back. What if we just have multiple health?

Not having the RPS that emerges from the value's. It has been proven to me that this is not possible. The RPS that emerged from armor and damage only:
Infantry > Tanks at 36 vs 9. (36)
Infantry > Vehicles at 16 vs 8. (16)
Vehicles > Tanks at 16 vs 8. (32)

In a sense, we turn II into I>V>T Tanks
Vehicles > Infantry
Vehicles > Tanks

This time, we turn II into ITVI, being turned into this I>VI....
That's right, it doesn't change at all and the vehilces are the underdog here.

***

That all said and done.
What other combinations did I try in the past?

I used a double armor mechanic for my space ship design.
In a sense, each ship had 1, or 2 hit points. With the 2 hit points simply allowing for 2 different armor value's to work with. The costs were also increased by 25%. So, some ships where cheaper while more durable against the wrong weapons. In a sense, having 2 hit points of the same armor value would be silly. But still allowed. And these ships had a turning point into losing, when having to deal with the correct weapons. The opposite happened when facing the wrong weapons. But practical balance...
And a mix? Well, it required the opponent to use a mix as well.

The RPS here are (single average weight):
2 hp (2.5) > 1 hp (1) < mix of hp (1.75) < 2 hp (2.5)
After tipping point:
2 hp (2.5) < 1 hp (1) > mix of hp (1.75) > 2 hp (2.5)
And we have:
mix weapons (2) > mix armors 2 hp (2.5) > pure weapons 2 d (2) > pure armor 2 hp (2.5) > mix weapons 2 d (2)

A mix of hp or mix armor sounds like the same deal?
But what I meant here is that a mix of hp is actually a force consists of having ships with or without shield at the same time. Whereas mix armors means that the ship has both armor and shield at all times, but these have different threshold value's.

Ah, I almost forgot. The main combat mechanic had some sort of semi health tracking between subrounds. Meaning that each round had 3 sub rounds. And if a threshold was broken in a subround, that shield would then be removed for the rest of the round.

Different but somehow similar to your system @larienna.
I find it interesting to have that combination. It sure changes behavior.

Oh, why didn't I ever continue designing the space game? (My testers rather play with tanks and infantry)

Conclusions
RPS is possible with BOTH health tracking AND thresholds.
RPS is NOT possible with health AS threshold.
RPS can still emerge from health AS threshold, but you can only have 2 flavours and need to allow a mix of the 2 for a synergy.

Combining armor/damage with health/hits is possible when limiting the latter to 2.

X3M
X3M's picture
Offline
Joined: 10/28/2013
Health tracking AND thresholds?

As long as you keep the 2 separate. It is entirely possible to do this. However, the threshold value's will be different.

I previously posted that 1, 3 and 9 are good numbers for a certain RPS to emerge.
Applying health tracking here will change it back to what I normally would do.....

Yeah, if you consider an armor value as a threshold. Didn't I always do this before?
I always mentioned in my prototype games the following:

If the damage is higher than the armor value. The damage dealth IS the armor value.
And by default, units have 5 times the armor value as health.

Infantry have 1 armor, 5 health. A tank comes in and deals 36 damage. This is always 1 damage on 1 armor. And thus it gets removed from the health by just 1.

For balance, I would allow that 1 damage, dealth by riflemen, being tracked on a 180 hp tank. Thus, 179, 178 etc.

I do not use the threshold mechanic like, that you have to reach the armor value in order to even deal a hit point of damage.

In that case, we immediately go back to the 1, 3 and 9 system. But all units would get the same default hit points. And it will NOT be a multiple number of the armor any more.

I think that I now understand why my prototype system was so confusing all that time. It was an half-assed threshold system, with a health track system. Either or both at the same time.

Thus:
Damagearmor; threshold combined with health tracking. With armor as subtraction on the health.

It is....balanced? Will infantry outweight tanks? Well, I have 2 other rules that often make a comeback in my game designs.
1. Bonus damage mechanic (Outnumbered and/or outclassed? 50% or 100% bonus damage)
2. Cover mechanic (Bigger and/or numerous? Now you can protect by redirecting and tanking hits)

I was not planning on having that bonus damage rule for my recent game effort. But there is a cover mechanic in place. Or else, the entire blocking has no place. There are many flavours in cover mechanics. I simply have to pick the right one, once the RPS and tipping points are decided. Because the cover mechanic is only there for increasing or enabling synergy effects of mixed forces.

Personally? If I have to use thresholds, then I prefer to have no health tracking. My goal of using thresholds is solely removing the handling of health tracking and removing math for the players.

Otherwise it defeats its purpose.

X3M
X3M's picture
Offline
Joined: 10/28/2013
Short conclusion?

I prefer health tracking. Because I am used to it. It also allows for infinite expansions without a backlash like in other games. Though I will try to design with the least health tracking as possible.

Examples:
Damage D6-1 for 8 health results in 20 hit points.
Damage D6-2 for 3 health results in 5 hit points.
Hitchance 1 or 2 on D6 for 3 health results in 1 hit point.

Threshold, has given me only backlash. Even in the initial states. Oof...

***

I invite other others to share their experiences with either/or health tracking and/or threshold(s). And what they prefer.
I have my conclusion (based on math and personal design proces).

questccg
questccg's picture
Online
Joined: 04/16/2011
Hmm... I'm not a "Wargamer" so...

Please do take this comment with a "grain of salt". Although I don't have much experience with "Wargaming" and I think the latest RTS I've played was "StarCraft 1" from Blizzard; I do have an opinion based on certain "criteria" needed to do what is needed for various "solutions".

questccg wrote:
Let me start FIRST by saying that I "personally" HATE "Health Tracking". Some of the reasons is because it will be different for each Unit and that's something that DON'T like. I like things to by "synergistic" and complement each other when we are talking about Game Mechanics...

"HP Tracking" doesn't allow for this. It changes per Unit and that's why I dislike it. Each unit has it's own HP and therefore requires Tracking of HP as its health gets reduced by an attack. So to START with, I am NOT a fan of HP Tracking. To me, it's way too challenging. And I know that @X3M has some kind of formulas for "HP Tracking" in the way he designs his Units so it may be a bit easier for HIM... But general rule of thumb: HP Tracking is terrible.

That leads me to the next topic: thresholds.

questccg wrote:
I PREFER "Threshold Mechanics" because they can be easily documented on a "Card" for a Unit and even though the numbers are different, the PRINCIPLE stays the same: each Unit has from 3 to 5 THRESHOLD values by which is can survive an attack. I added the "3 to 5" because some units should be easier to destroy while other could take a bit longer time ... Because by nature they are STRONGER.

The NICE thing about "Threshold Mechanics" is that you DON'T need to TRACK every 1 HP of damage (or 5 or 10 HP, etc. etc.) Instead you need to Track DAMAGE which is much easier (from my own POV). You can use CUSTOMIZED Damage Tokens to determine the amount of Damage a Unit gets after it is attacked.

I know above in this threads I proposed 5 "colors" ... But this can instead be 5 "colors AND different Shapes". So this would ensure that people with Color difficulties can easily identify WHICH amount of Damage the Units each have.

I think when designing "Card Games" (not "Wargames") ... In most instances you deal with "Threshold Mechanics" usually attached to some kind of RPS-3 or RPS-5 and that leads to something that I am MUCH more FAMILIAR with. TradeWorlds was ALL-OR-NOTHING combat, meaning that in very Deterministic Combat you either HAD enough Firepower to destroy and opposing Starship or you did NOT attack. Even with pure Determinism, I opted to add variability with the "Initiative Roll" to balance out the experience: yes you may be stronger but your opponent may have the UPPER HAND.

In my current "Mystery Card Game", I too am looking at ALL-OR-NOTHING combat. Why? Because for that game it is the EASIEST method to NOT have to do "HP Tracking". Either you defeat your opponent, he defeats you or both survive. Those are the 3 Options... And keeping this like that kind of "Combat Mechanics" is what makes the game WORK. There are other reasons which I cannot explain ATM... But suffice to say that the "FORMAT" of the game requires that there be NO DICE and NO DAMAGE TOKENS. So no "HP Tracking" and no more RNG that occurs with dice.

ALL-OR-NOTHING combat is akin to a "Threshold" Combat Mechanic. It's one step up from the ALL-OR-NOTHING mechanic in my "Mystery Card Game". The difference is that with "Thresholds" you have LEVELS of "Damage" and you can use "Damage Tokens" which can be very generic yet hugely impactful and very easy to comprehend and use. "Damage Tracking" is SIMPLER and more LEVEL-Oriented than "HP Tracking".

"HP Tracking" IMHO is TOO GRANULAR. And too generic that all Units require separate HP Tracking. Yes "Damage Tracking" also require tracking too... But the LEVELS are on the CARDS/UNITS and that makes it much easier to do LESS MATH than trying to figure out the HPs of a Unit.

"Damage Tracking" is 100% if there is NO TOKEN and then LEVELS determined by the Cards themselves which introduce Color AND Shapes for the "Damage Tokens".

A Unit can have 10 HP and therefore all kinds of ways of LOSING HEALTH. Could have a "-5 HP Token" and have "5 HP of health leftover". But then can suffer three (3) "-1 HP Tokens" and then you have 4 Tokens and "2 HP of health leftover". This kind of TRACKING for ONE UNIT is "troublesome"... Compound the problem with a Dozen or more Units... And it's a VIRTUAL MESS (IMHO)!

"Damage Tracking" is different: it's ONE TOKEN per Unit. So you have a dozen or more units... You can have some units at 100% (so NO TOKEN) and then you can have the OTHER Units with ONLY ONE (1) TOKEN to determine the state of that unit.

***

Anyways this is just one POV (my own). But it covers EXPLANATIONS about HOW one Mechanic and "solution" is WAY BETTER than the other. I know this because I am working with a Game that HAS "HP Tracking" and believe me... I may make a lot of money simply because I have streamlined the mechanic into something more intuitive. I won't discuss much more about that... But as you can see by MY COMMENT... I do have SOME experience and a deeper understanding about the difference that I have shared and looked at in this comment/thread.

Peace!

Note #1: Here's the thing that I wanted to add. Essentially with Threshold Mechanics you don't NEED MULTIPLE Damage Tokens PER UNIT. You only need ONE (1) to indicate the STATE it is in and HOW MUCH "Damage" has been taken.

Now I know in the other thread @X3M was talking about Clouds and Spikes ... And this is NOT what I mean by Damage Tokens. THEY ARE NOT CUMULATIVE. They exist to "document" the STATE of ONE UNIT and therefore ONLY REQUIRE one "Damage" Token per Unit (or None if the unit is 100% or 0%). Either 0% Damage or 100% Damage... At 0% there is no Token and at 100% Damage the unit is remove from the "Area of Play" (Destroyed).

I know people USE the two (2) Interchangeably ... "HP Tracking" = "Damage Tracking"... And NO that is 100% FALSE and totally INCORRECT. "HP Tracking" tries to handle the amount of HEALTH a unit may have. "Damage Tracking" is very different in that it tracks the LEVEL of "Damage". 100% Damage = Destroyed (as explained above)...

So they are NOT AT ALL the SAME thing...

X3M
X3M's picture
Offline
Joined: 10/28/2013
There is a third kind

It is one of the combinations. But didn't work out for me.
All units have 5 health. Their armor is the threshold per projectile.

Units dealing 1 damage didn't work out balance wise in the long run. I have that problem still poking at me if I want free design in that regard.

Much later, I removed health tracking. Or better said, damage tracking. Alongside XP tracking (biggest mistake).

I converged it to picking 1 at a time. And almost always, there would be only one target (sometimes 2 or extreme rarely 3). That would receive damage.
All other units would either die or live 100%.

I could revisit the 5 hit point system.
But I would only make use of the bonus damage rules. Which increase chances of dealing damage with smaller forces and/or units.

As for the minimal damage tracking game. Due to the game rules in that one. Again, 1 or 2 might receive damage. But the forces are smaller. And the health can instantly ve obliterated. It is very simple. Use a weapon that is stronger, the unit dies. Use a weapon that is weaker, we track damage, but we do not consider any threshold for this.

16 health? Some weapons deal 16 damage.
8 damage only? We aply 1 damage token of 8.

That said, I should look into the i that can make seemless hexagon boards. Because that was my biggest slowdown in development.

questccg
questccg's picture
Online
Joined: 04/16/2011
Damage Tokens vs. HP Tracking Tokens

I'm going to be VERY "careful" about TERMINOLOGY. Why? Because I think there is two (2) uses for the term "Damage Tokens" and I want to be CLEAR because they are very DIFFERENT and have different reasons to exist.

#1> Damage Tokens used when "HP Tracking".

So this is one (1) possibility. If you deal "5 Damage" you place a "5 Damage Token", if you only deal 3x "1 Damage" you place three (3) "1 Damage Tokens" and so forth. It becomes COMPLICATED and TOO DIFFICULT to track MANY Units.

#2> Damage Tokens used when doing "Damage Tracking".

This is the second possibility and it is ONLY ONE (1) Token per Unit. The Color (or Shape) the the Token determines the current STATE of the Unit and how much Damage it can take before being destroyed.

So when @X3M says:

X3M wrote:
16 health? Some weapons deal 16 damage.
8 damage only? We apply 1 damage token of 8.

This is "HP Tracking". Unless we have LEVELS (>= 8) deal Damage and track it as 50% Damage (1st Level for example).

And the thresholds for this unit is = 4/8/16...

Also @larienna pointed out an INTERESTING FACTOR to the LEVELS. In this example we are talking about 50% DAMAGE at EACH LEVEL.

So to REACH the Second Level, you need to DEAL 8 Damage and therefore have a "Damage Token" on "Level 2" (whatever the Shape or Color it is...)

This also means that the next attack you can do only 4 Damage (Level 3) and 8 Damage to DEFEAT/DESTROY the Unit (100% Damage).

And maybe the thresholds for a Tank are = 5/10/20/40...

All levels going up by 100% at each Level. Maybe a NORMAL Tank is NOT 5 Levels ... Maybe that is reserved for a "Sonic Tank" (emits radio waves to neutralize ALL soldiers) = 2/4/8/16/32...

Again a fabrication of my mind ... Just as an Example...

That's "Threshold Mechanics" at their very best determining the STATES and LEVELS of Damage for each Unit in play.

And REMEMBER: it only takes ONE (1) Damage Token to track the state of a Unit. If you have a dozen units you can have up to 12 Damage Tokens ... But maybe less because units at 0% Damage (No Damage) have NO Damage Token.

Hope this is better. I really did TRY to make it EASIER to understand how(?) the "Threshold Mechanics" work better than "HP Tracking". Again if someone has questions, needs further explanation, or want to post more feedback feel free to comment.

Cheers all.

questccg
questccg's picture
Online
Joined: 04/16/2011
Wanted to add this to the discussion

I made the steps go up for 100% each Level. It doesn't have to be so. It was just easier to work with those linear progressions and this is NOW something for @X3M's MATH capabilities to play with the Levels and try to figure out what Unit needs more Levels and what Unit needs more HP at each Level as compared to the PREVIOUS Level in the chain...

I'm not going to go deep into the MATH. But there are ways to BALANCE it out some more and I'll let @X3M think about that and see what HE comes up with. He likes non-linear progressions and so he might find BETTER Levels than the examples that I came up with.

Again they were just for EXPLANATORY reasons and I figure @X3M can come up with better arguments for the Levels than my examples.

Sincerely.

X3M
X3M's picture
Offline
Joined: 10/28/2013
Oh, but when doing health

Oh, but when doing health tracking. This is 100% linear.
With thresholds, it is not.

The main reason is that a threshold is an all or nothing event per "step".
While adding damage tokens, as in, we count down from whatever maximum health the unit had. This is pretty much linear in my world.

As for the hp in one of my wargames going binairy. 1, 2, 4, 8, 16.
It is just that the weapons do exactly the same. 1, 2, 4, 8, 16. And using 2 weapons of 8. If they both hit, they too kill that 16.
If only 1 hits....well, then 8 damage is applied and tracked on that 16.

Even though I am saying 16. I believe that the game that was under development would have only 4 factions with each missing one of the first 4 tiers of armor.
And thus we had 12 designs per faction.

That said. Terminology is difficult due to language barriers.
Here is what I think it all is:
- Health tracking: we give the unit health and lower it when it is damaged. At 0, the unit dies.
- Damage tracking: we give the unit damage as soon as it is inflicted. At maximum health, the unit dies.
- Damage token: An object that indicates how much damage the unit has received.

The last one. Well, you can go several ways with it.
I prefer having the least ammount of objects needed. Because that reduces handling.

Having damage tokens that count for 1, 2, 4 and 8 is great for a game with 1, 2, 4, 8 and 16 hp.
Worst case scenario, you need all 4.
In the game that was under development. It would only result in 3 at most.

1, 2, 1+2, 4, 1+4, 2+4, 1+2+4, dead.
So, we need, 1, 1, 2, 1, 2, 2 and 3 tokens. An average of 1.7 tokens. And reducing this effect to only 1 unit at a time. The handling is at an absolute minimum.

I have to say, if your AI gets those ridges right. I might actually return to develop that game again. Would love to design the miniatures etc.
For every miniature that has 8 hp. There will be only 3 of 1 hp. And those 1 hp....they don't need damage tokens, nope, not at all :).
Hope to fit 2 miniature Minotaurus per hexagon. Yaaay!

questccg
questccg's picture
Online
Joined: 04/16/2011
Hmm... Not to sound dumb

But when using "Damage Tokens" and "Threshold Mechanics" ... Your TOKENS do NOT have a "Value" on them. Instead they are generic and have a unique color and shape (for colorblindness) or you can have a Clip & Card to keep track of each Unit out in the Field.

So when using "Threshold Mechanics" you don't NEED to TRACK HP... Only the STATE of the Unit.

That is SUPER important because it makes a HUGE amount of difference because you only have one (1) "Damage Token" per Unit unless they a Unit is 100% Healthy and has NO "Damage Token".

It's 100% different than "HP Tracking"... I cannot stress that more than anything else TBH.

Syndicate content


forum | by Dr. Radut