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How to *design* a game

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questccg
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Hi all,

Okay so I read somewhere that MtG is all about RULES. And when *designing* new cards, it often becomes about breaking the rules. I think that is VERY cool... But I feel every time I try to follow this paradigm, I never can come up with sufficient rules - that can later be broken.

For example: In my current design each player has 3 APs (Action Points) per turn. <= RULE

Instant card which BREAKS the rule = Discard 1 card from your hand to earn 1 extra AP (Self-Sacrifice - White).
Another card to break the rule = Steal 1 AP from your opponent for your next turn (Amorality - Black).
Similarly another card = Steal 1 AP from your opponent by discarding 1 card from your hand (Balance - Blue).

I think this type of designing is... as I said... very cool. BUT I simply cannot come up with enough RULES! :P

Aside: I look at that MtG color wheel and DROOOOLLLLL... ( http://wiki.mtgsalvation.com/images/e/e1/Color_Wheel.jpg ) The depth of that game is so deep. If I could capture like 25%, I would be happy with that.

Anybody care to comment???

hotsoup
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I'm not sure what you're

I'm not sure what you're asking here...

Are you asking what rules your game should have?

MikeyNg
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Color pie

Keep in mind that that color pie wasn't around at the START of M:tG. Granted, they had their colors fairly well laid out, but if you look at some of the card/color combinations from back then, there are things that wouldn't fly today.

So having said that, I think you should come at it from both sides: your pie will determine your abilities, but your abilities will also determine your pie. So it may be a good time to look at various abilities that you think are just plain cool to do and implement those and then see how they would fit into your pie.

Keep in mind also that not every card should break a rule. If EVERY card breaks a rule, then when cards break rules, they are no longer unique/"powerful".

Going to your AP example: what are the various "resources" that people have at their disposal? What are the different zones in play? Hand, deck, graveyard, exile, battleground, life, AP, etc.

So think about trades between those. Pay 1 life - gain 1 AP. Return a card from the battleground to your hand - gain 1 AP. Spend 1 AP this turn - get another AP next turn. Move two cards from your deck to your graveyard - gain 1 AP. Move your graveyard to exile - gain 1 AP.

questccg
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Cool somebody who understands me!

MikeyNg wrote:
Keep in mind that that color pie wasn't around at the START of M:tG. Granted, they had their colors fairly well laid out, but if you look at some of the card/color combinations from back then, there are things that wouldn't fly today.

I'm not trying to be WOTC and making things similar to MtG. It's just that I like the approach, it adds depth to a game.

MikeyNg wrote:
So having said that, I think you should come at it from both sides: your pie will determine your abilities, but your abilities will also determine your pie. So it may be a good time to look at various abilities that you think are just plain cool to do and implement those and then see how they would fit into your pie.

Well I am thinking about *Instant* cards and what they can do. Also if I have pie abilities, that will help me think in the *Right direction* to find new Instant cards.

MikeyNg wrote:
Keep in mind also that not every card should break a rule. If EVERY card breaks a rule, then when cards break rules, they are no longer unique/"powerful".

I understand. But even the cards that break rules follow another set of rules (like the pie and its abilities).

MikeyNg wrote:
Going to your AP example: what are the various "resources" that people have at their disposal? What are the different zones in play? Hand, deck, graveyard, exile, battleground, life, AP, etc.

This is very interesting. I have: Deck, Hand, Battlefield, Victory Spots and Graveyard. (And Deck can be Exile also). For resources, I have: Mana (5 types), APs, Battle Dice (5 types too). I do not have "life" in the game, your Character does not suffer damage from opposing forces.

MikeyNg wrote:
So think about trades between those. Pay 1 life - gain 1 AP. Return a card from the battleground to your hand - gain 1 AP. Spend 1 AP this turn - get another AP next turn. Move two cards from your deck to your graveyard - gain 1 AP. Move your graveyard to exile - gain 1 AP.

These all seem sensible, with the exception of the of "2 cards from your deck to your graveyard - gain 1 AP". Seems too costly.

Also please explain the difference between *Graveyard* and *Exile*. My assumption is when the card is in the Graveyard, that card is done - unless some other card can restore it to life. My understanding of Exile is that the card is returned to your deck where it may be conjured again. Am I correct? These are my game's dynamics even if they are incorrect...

So back to my *colors*, this is what I have so far (people may comment):

Green - ??? (Don't know yet)
Blue - Balance
Red - Coercion
White - Self-sacrifice
Black - Amorality

So for my AP example, I have: ??? (Green), Steal 1 AP by discarding 1 card from your hand (Blue), Your opponent must draw 1 additional card (Red), Discard 1 card from your hand to earn 1 extra AP (White), Steal 1 AP from your opponent (Black).

Not sure what to do with *Green*. The element is Earth and features earth units. It also includes land-friendly Elves which are usually neutral in alignment.

Ideas welcome... Many thanks.

questccg
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Green - natural order

Maybe Green = Natural order.

And my AP example should be:

-Opponent loses 1 AP by returning 1 unit from the battlefield into your Deck (or Exile).

Can't express it *clearly*. But what it means is that the opponent with lose 1 AP if YOU return 1 unit that is in play (Battlefield) by putting it back into your Deck.

Kinda the opposite of conjuring a unit, this would be like dispelling a unit. So you want the opponent to lose 1 AP, you lose 1 unit.

Does this sound good???

I am open to other ideas for this color...

Stormyknight1976
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Some Green ideas

1: Restore all AP to player. 2: Restore 3 AP back to player. 3: Give 2 AP back to opponent (this is opposite to black). 4: Shuffle main draw pile as free action. 5: Give 1 AP to all player units on field.

MikeyNg
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questccg wrote:MikeyNg

questccg wrote:
MikeyNg wrote:
Keep in mind that that color pie wasn't around at the START of M:tG. Granted, they had their colors fairly well laid out, but if you look at some of the card/color combinations from back then, there are things that wouldn't fly today.

I'm not trying to be WOTC and making things similar to MtG. It's just that I like the approach, it adds depth to a game.


I hear ya - my point was that it wasn't created overnight. It took them YEARS to get that pie to where it is now.
questccg wrote:

MikeyNg wrote:
Going to your AP example: what are the various "resources" that people have at their disposal? What are the different zones in play? Hand, deck, graveyard, exile, battleground, life, AP, etc.

This is very interesting. I have: Deck, Hand, Battlefield, Victory Spots and Graveyard. (And Deck can be Exile also). For resources, I have: Mana (5 types), APs, Battle Dice (5 types too). I do not have "life" in the game, your Character does not suffer damage from opposing forces.

What are "victory spots"? But similarly - I'd look to trading between the various resources. Remove one dice for a turn (or two) - gain 1 AP or something. It's hard to say exactly since I don't know your game. But interacting mana, AP, and dice alone should give you tons of possibilities - before you even get to cards. :)

questccg wrote:

Also please explain the difference between *Graveyard* and *Exile*. My assumption is when the card is in the Graveyard, that card is done - unless some other card can restore it to life. My understanding of Exile is that the card is returned to your deck where it may be conjured again. Am I correct? These are my game's dynamics even if they are incorrect...

Exile is like a "super graveyard". Cards can come back from the graveyard, but nothing comes back from exile.

questccg wrote:

So back to my *colors*, this is what I have so far (people may comment):

Green - ??? (Don't know yet)
Blue - Balance
Red - Coercion
White - Self-sacrifice
Black - Amorality

So for my AP example, I have: ??? (Green), Steal 1 AP by discarding 1 card from your hand (Blue), Your opponent must draw 1 additional card (Red), Discard 1 card from your hand to earn 1 extra AP (White), Steal 1 AP from your opponent (Black).

Not sure what to do with *Green*. The element is Earth and features earth units. It also includes land-friendly Elves which are usually neutral in alignment.

Ideas welcome... Many thanks.

Curious what the difference would be between "natural order" and "balance". It may be easier to use natural order for green and come up with something else for blue. :)

What about chaos as a theme for a color?

questccg
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Hmm... I think you are on to something..

Stormyknight1976 wrote:
1: Restore all AP to player. 2: Restore 3 AP back to player. 3: Give 2 AP back to opponent (this is opposite to black). 4: Shuffle main draw pile as free action. 5: Give 1 AP to all player units on field.

I think I agree... Maybe something like: "Give 2 AP back to opponent, return topmost card in your graveyard to your hand." or "Give 1 AP back to opponent, return topmost card in your graveyard to your deck."

Sometimes you need to be "nice" to people to get what you want! :P

MikeyNg wrote:
Exile is like a "super graveyard". Cards can come back from the graveyard, but nothing comes back from exile.

Okay, in my game when the card is in the Graveyard - its DEAD. You can only revive the topmost graveyard card. What I call "Exile" is when a card is revived back into your "Deck". Then it is in Exile until it gets picked and then subsequently conjured (for a second time). This will happen when a Powerful card "dies" at the hands of another. Basically you want to *revive* that card on the next turn or it's a goner...

Unlike MtG, I am using Dice for both Mana and Battles. The good news about that is the game is a little bit more *random* and makes the player *FEEL* like he is in more control - obviously not because he has to roll dice. The GOOD (or GREAT) news is that a Powerful unit can be defeated by a WEAK unit (luck of the dice). This is AGAINST the ODDS - but still it can happen. And if I *inject* enough Instant cards to make that happen, well then the game becomes better *rounded out*.

This is the opposite of Yu-Gi-Oh! where stronger creature cards are much harder to get rid of. In MtG there are several ways to win a game without the need of having the stronger creature since you have Life points and you can directly target the "Planeswalker"...

Chaos? Is similar to "coercion" (Red)? The idea being that you "Force" a player to do something he did not plan to do... That is somewhat chaotic...

MikeyNg
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Chaos

I was thinking of chaos more as "random".

So it might be something like re-roll the dice would be a "feature". You don't know what the outcome is going to be!

questccg
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Tell me what you think

MikeyNg wrote:
I was thinking of chaos more as "random".

So it might be something like re-roll the dice would be a "feature". You don't know what the outcome is going to be!

How about this = (Red - Chaos) You must roll a dice to determine how many APs you get this turn.

This is VERY chaotic... 6 is like having 2 turns, 1 is not enough to do anything... almost. And the odds on the dice are all the same. So it is complete luck and total chaos! :D

MikeyNg
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TOO random?

It's your game, and like I said: I don't know too much about your game.

There needs to be a decent trade-off for such chaos, though. I guess getting 6 AP might be overpowered. I can see where rolling 1 for three turns in a row might be disheartening...

sedjtroll
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Those aren't "rules" - they're "effects"

It sounds to me, from your example about AP at least, that you haven't really got "rules" so much as you have "effects".

Before you worry about rule-breaking cards and effects, you probably need to settle on basic rules of the game.

In Magic the basic rules are:

* You win the game by reducing opponent's life total to 0.
* You draw 1 card each turn, you play as many cards as you want to afford, and then you discard to your hand limit.
* You pay for cards with resources, which come from cards in play. * To control the pace of the game a bit, there's a rule that you can only play one Land per turn.
etc.

Then there are cards that affect each aspect of the game...
* Cards that let you draw more cards
* Cards that give you more resources
* Cards that make your opponent discard
* Cards that reduce your opponent's life total
etc.

Then for variety, there are different types of cards that do each thing.
* Sorceries have bigger effects, but mus be played during your own turn.
* Instants have a smaller effect, but are more versatile in when you can play them,, and therefore you can do tricky plays with timing.
* Creatures are vulnerable, but stick around to potentially deal damage every turn.
* Artifacts have a lasting effect compared to Sorceries.
* Enchantments have a static effect.
etc.

Then you have your "color wheel" which gives cards of each type a sort of flavor, and guides you as to how to categorize your cards:
* A card that gives you life back is the kind of thing Green or White cards do.
* A card that makes an opponent discard is the kind of thing Black cards do.
* A card that draws cards is the kind of thing Blue cards do.
* A card that draws cards at the expense of life is something a Black card would do.
etc.

Knicksen
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Nice summary...

...not much else to say 8o)

questccg
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Change of plan

Well it was in the back of my mind when I designed how to conjure cards. My plan was to roll 5 dice, each of a different color and you would use those dice in conjunction with the cards in your hand... So each dice had a Mana value and you would conjure up units using those dice values.

BUT I already knew that something in my design was *incorrect*. And I have FINALLY figured it out: instead of using Action Points (APs), I will ONLY use Mana Points (MPs). The reason this did not work earlier is because I was "re-using" the d6s for MPs and battles. No more, MPs use d6s and battles use d12s!

Okay so how does this work? Well at the beginning of each TURN, the player rolls 5 dice (d6) each one a different color.

And the rules are as follows:
-Draw a card = Costs 3 MPs (player's choice).
-Conjure a unit = Costs 3 MPs (according to the card being conjured).
-Move a unit = Costs 2 MPs (player's choice, 2 out of 3 colors on the card).
-Battle a unit = Cost varies according to the card and which attack is used.

When a battle ensues, players roll d12s (versus d6 for MPs). After a battle a player can still spend remaining MPs... (such as draw another card, move a card, battle again, etc.)

So Mana is a *Random* element in the game. And it kinda makes sense that you can gather only a certain amount of MP each turn based on fate.

MORE: Using MPs for all things related to units is both a blessing and a curse depending on your dice rolls. The good news is that I think mathematically things round themselves out to about 3 or 4 of each MP (5 dice). So you can conjure a unit, draw some cards and then maybe have a battle. On another turn, you can simply focus on moving units (rearranging the battlefield)... On some turns you will be able to do both (good dice roll)...

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