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Level or not to Level Characters

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jbmoyer
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Joined: 04/27/2012

So I am working on a Dungeon Game and at first was planning on adding a leveling aspect to it, but as I think more about it, what is the real purpose of leveling your characters? As you level you get stronger, more powerful items, spells, better armor etc.. but really does it matter? Because the Monster will also get stronger along with you. So really leveling is just using bigger numbers to determine damage, hit etc, Right? If so just set the starting values at big numbers if you want to feel super powerful.

So why not skip leveling and just allow characters to have sweet weapons/armor/spells etc and not have to worry about tracking levels between games, tracking stats, what items you have etc...

What are your thoughts? Am I really over simplifying it or is it truly the best part of an RPG to have leveling?

Thanks
Brett.

Stormyknight1976
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Joined: 04/08/2012
To level up or not to level up?

I suggest you add enough health potions or herbs or what ever your going to use for the characters to over come the stronger monsters down the road. In Castlvania for the Psp, this game was difficult to play because there wasn't enough health potions to pass most of the bosses. To me it was annoying trying to dodge and yet the character kept flipping backwards.

Stormyknight1976
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Joined: 04/08/2012
Adding more comments.

Go ahead and test the new mechanic. Don't level up the characters to see how far they go. It would make it realistically correct in a real world situation even though the game is all fantasy.

jbmoyer
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Joined: 04/27/2012
life total

I understand what you say about the hitpoints but reguardless of how much you have you still need to heal. If you are lvl 10 with say 20 HP you can expect the monsters to be leveled so they might dish out say 8 pts DMg so now your in same position, NO?

I have been testing my game and found initial HP is too low for sure going to raise it. When I say why lvl what I mean is if you play the game complete a questil then play again another day why do you need to be a new lvl? It will still be a challenge especially if there are randimizers take for example lord of the rings living card game.

Are there any other solid reaspns to gain and track lvls? Maybe it helps ppl feel like they are/have accomplished something for playing for an hour or so, maybe that is the drawl

Hmmmmm

Stormyknight1976
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Joined: 04/08/2012
I understand

If you go with the not leveling then the game will be like temple run or jetpack joe. A never ending level. Its fun getting all of the neat gadgets and suits but the level never ends. The games only have equipment replay value and how far you can go with out crashing or falling off the trail in temple run. Both games are for ipad etc. In my earliest dungeon crawl game the players acquire better weapons and armour to help them through out the dungeon. It took me 2 full years to etch in the walls for the maze like dungeon in a mountain. More an that later.

Stormyknight1976
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Joined: 04/08/2012
Okay leveling up.

Leveling up a character is a way to tell other players that my character level 8. Im experienced in what my character has accomplished. Remember how long your character in a DnD game would take to get to level 8 or 10 or higher? It brings back great memories, long conversations about how the story began, how it almost ended because a player forgot to use a skill check on a trap or use a saving throw or something entirely different, and how the story ended by the characters won but didnt get anything in return?

The Game Crafter
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It IS Important

I played a few quests in the old Hero Quest with some friends earlier this month. Their biggest complaint: no leveling. I don't know that you need levels, but you definitely need character progression or a sense of accomplishment.

kos
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Joined: 01/17/2011
Sense of achievement

I think a dungeon crawl game needs to promote a sense of achievement in order to have replayability. Often this is done by levelling, but could be gaining new skills or some other mechanism. In fact, in my view gaining access to new skills/abilities gives more of a sense of achievement than simply getting +1 to hit. Story-based or strong roleplaying rpgs don't really need this kind of advancement because the achievement is accomplished through the narrative, but let's face it that a typical dungeon crawl is short on narrative. In my view accumulating equipment/money does not give the same sense of achievement as character advancement, because equipment/money can come and go but new skills are permanent.

With regards to your comment that "the monsters just get stronger", I'm not sure what game balance mechanism you have but one of my pet peeves is "inflatable monsters". "Inflatable monsters" means that when I am level 1 I fight a level 1 goblin, and when I am level 5 I fight a level 5 goblin. This undermines the whole principle of the "sense of achievement" that should be associated with character advancement.

As a player, after I've played a few games with the same character I want to be able to look back and see that my character can now accomplish more things than he could have accomplished when I started playing. So I want to be able to run faster or hit harder or climb further or cast new spells. I want new options that were not available to my character in his first adventure. And I want to be able to fight *different* monsters or *more* monsters that I could not have defeated previously -- not just higher level versions of the same monsters.

Regards,
kos

svenne
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It is no fun when you gain a

It is no fun when you gain a new level just to find out that the monsters have done the same just because... no reason at all. I love the way Phantasy Star (old video game) is working. Yes, I am still plying it now and then.
http://www.phantasy-star.net/

There is different areas with different monsters. When you are level 1 it is impossible to survive in a area with level 5 monsters. The monsters is also different, not just exact same monster but just higher level. There is almost always new monsters with new abilities instead.

When you are leveling you will have access to those areas and the monster in the level 1 area is like breakfast to you.

What different ways are there to manage more difficult monsters and obstacles?
Higher skills, better equipment, better abilities or something else?

larienna
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Quote: As you level you get

Quote:
As you level you get stronger, more powerful items, spells, better armor etc.. but really does it matter? Because the Monster will also get stronger along with you. So really leveling is just using bigger numbers to determine damage, hit etc, Right?

That was one of the problem with levelling in dungeon crawler and I think this is why there is no levelling in hero quest. If I roll 3D to attack and the enemy roll 2D to defend, then if I level up and roll 6D to attack, when the enemy roll 4D to defend, the proportion end up the same. So is there really an interest to level up, NO.

So instead of keeping track of tons of bonus and malus, if you really want levelling, why not only keep track if your opponent is stronger or weaker than you and simply give a fixed bonus or malus.

In the dungeons and dragon board games, they had an interesting way to manage XP. It was more used as a flushable resource. I reused the same concept with determination tokens in dungeon quest, it could be used to temporarily raise a stat after a roll you have fail to succeed it. I made that defeating monster gave determination tokens because player felt there was no reward to defeat a monster.

In a video game RPG of mine, I wanted to avoid the situation where high level characters always hit low level creatures, and low level characters can never hit high level creature. What I did is that I made the level have no impact on the capacity to hit an opponent. So a level 1 fighter has the same odds to hit than a level 10 fighter (if they have the same attribute). But the level 10 fighter can sustain more damage and inflict more damage giving him more chances to survive in a high level monster area. But still, the game will never prevent low level character to access an area, they will just need to be on the edge all the time.

Finally, considering leveling is hard in board games since you cannot change the stats on a card, why not focus levelling on versatility. Being higher level gives you more skill an abilities making you more versatile to deal with various kinds of situation or allowing you to defeat more monsters in the end, but dot not make players or monster do more damage.

Sidenote: Phantasy Star 1 is the best.

jbmoyer
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Joined: 04/27/2012
Exactly...

So it seems that when it really comes down to it "you definitely need character progression or a sense of accomplishment" is the overwhelming point, which by no means is bad. I related the question of the thread to Heroes Quest a simple great game you want to play all night, no leveling but still draws you.

I didn't exactly mean inflatable monsters, I can see how that can be lame to fight the same goblins/orcs etc with just bigger stats, I do see the value in changing up the monsters although they will still technically be "inflated", but it does make sense.

I can see where some of you are going, add in higher level things, monsters spells items to tease the players into playing and playing with hopes of getting to use that in their upcoming quests. will for sure look into adding that.

"considering leveling is hard in board games since you cannot change the stats on a card" Agreed, that was my main issue, how do you track between play sessions, if those were say days apart. I have an idea on a changeable stat card, which is quite scale-able trying to get my mechanics complete so I can put it out for others to test, haven't seen anything like it before but I haven't played all the games either.

A good question would be over paper tracking sheets how would you track items etc found from play session to session? Thanks everyone this is great information.

Brett

JustActCasual
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Joined: 11/20/2012
Alternates

Well, you could just give cards to track influences on the players and then just have little deck boxes or elastic bands to store them between sessions (Your deck might have a card for each of your current stats, a couple of wound cards, and a couple of item or enchantment cards). You don't have the write anything down, but your game still has memory.

Equipment gathering can be a useful equivalent to leveling and has the benefits of being more modular and temporary (your armour disintegrating is slightly more acceptable than permanent -2 to Toughness). You can see this kind of advancement in Zelda or similar games.

Another option is to simply scale the challenges as the players go on by making the challenges harder or the players weaker. This relies on the players themselves advancing in skill, and could be very rewarding. The difficulty of this system is that it requires a good deal of strategic depth in your game to be workable and a lot of work to make the challenges scale correctly. Essentially what you are doing here is trying to hit the Flow sweetspot between challenge and player skill the entire game.( http://jenovachen.com/flowingames/foundation.htm#flow )

Pinbot
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Joined: 09/11/2012
Let me share my perspective.

Let me share my perspective. Leveling up is a tool to organize progress through the game. It helps you impose structure on freeform adventuring. The sword of XY drops at level 5, the dragon becomes beatable at level 10, etc.

For players, leveling up provides new content (bigger monsters), new gameplay options (new powers) and a sense of accomplishment.

Monster progress should be varied. A satisfying monster is first daunting, then an even match, and finally you stomp it off the board. This provides a sense of accomplishment - and vengeance.

Of course, you don't need levels at ANY cost. An alternative is to let players go through ups and downs. Instead of permanent experience, players could spend experience for one time bonuses. Arkham Horror does something like that with monster trophies.

abdantas
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Joined: 11/13/2012
leveling

I like the idea of equipment gathering, but when you're looking for a controlled progression I think it really misses out. Unless you have specific decks for different "adventures." Even then someone might pull out the best magic sword out of the draw deck on the first turn and be Grognak The Invincible for the rest of the game.

I have an unconventional but I think interesting idea for you. Have you thought about leveling skills individually. Let's say you have your warrior character, and he's able to use any weapons and armor but no magic, and he starts the game out with a sword. a sword at first you would need to roll a die like a d20 (or something else that's ridiculous) and he needs a 2 or less to hit. the first time he hits he gets one experience point towards swords, so now instead of rolling a d12, but he still needs only a 2 or less, but now it doubles, if he hits two more times, he graduates to a d8, then 4 times with that a d6, then finally a d20. now, keeping in mind he's using 1hand weapons. he has no exp in 2h so if he was to grab a 2h weapon he'd be back at a d20.

same thing with the shield, he would start with a d(?) needing a certain amount for a successful block. then as he successfully blocks the dice used for different checks goes down, like he's becoming better at that specific thing.

If this was the case i would try to limit the amount of items just so I can keep the player boards litter free.

i'd go,
melee weapons:
1 handed
2 handed
Polearm
Mace

ranged:
short bow
long bow

armor
light
medium
heavy

magic:
elemental
blood (like necromancy)
divine

with magic you could have the dice go down as well, but you could use that as a system of possibly miscasting the spell. so let's say he gets the stuff for his fireball spell ready and he doesn't roll the appropriate bit, it misses. I'd start with a lower level die for the magic and ranged weapons. Also, i'd figure out some sort of "mana" system for the magic, maybe an area appraise (per dragonrealms if anyone has played it) Let's say you want to use elemental magic and you're nowhere near nature, you're in the middle of a city, your cast might not be as effective. Also if you added ammunition mechanic to the bow and arrow, probably with the option of retrieving the items after you're done with the battle (to be gentler to the player) that'd be really neat.

With the armor, i would push for something simple, as you get hit, even though the armor degrades you get better at using that type of armor. you get exp for every succesful dodge or hit and instead of making the dice lower it adds a modifier to your other roles. Like if you get better at using medium armor, when you wear medium armor you get a bonus to your attack, so instead of only rolling a 3, you can roll a 6 or lower to hit, because you become accustomed to the armor type therefore are more efficient at it.

These are all just thoughts off the top of my head and it could add a whole lot of trackers and pieces to the game.
but if you give players player mats (a la zombicide) that makes keeping track of this information easy then you could be onto something really cool i think.

UnnumberedT
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Joined: 01/17/2013
new level = new gameplay

I think Kos had all the right ideas, but didn't quite nail the important distinction. So I'm going to try to do that.

For me, it's a matter of stats vs. skills. I agree that if players and monsters level in parallel, then leveling can be a little silly. Does a level 5 dragon play just like a level 1 goblin? Maybe the dragon has a different name and a different image, but if the only gameplay-relevant difference is in the stats (e.g. strength, HP), then you're just reskinning things, and not really growing the game. Advancing in stats does create some sense of accomplishment, and there is value to that, but IMHO, a good game does more than this.

Personally, I'm a big fan of skills/perks over numbers. I suggest you let your players gain the ability to do something qualitatively different, something that actually changes the gameplay. New abilities and options are a more substantial reward than increased stats. Plus, such abilities refresh the game. I think this kind of change is what made the Zelda's so wildly popular. Every time you finish a dungeon, you get another heart (a type of stat improvement), but more importantly, you get a new tool, and that tool allows you to do qualitatively new things.

Without knowing more about your game, I can't suggest specific skill ideas, but in general, I think that's the way to go. If you're aiming at a sophisticated audience, one that's willing to track details, then leveling is the right choice. And if you do leveling, then levels should bring both better stats and new gameplay options.

jbmoyer
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Joined: 04/27/2012
Agree on this...

abdantas wrote:
I like the idea of equipment gathering, but when you're looking for a controlled progression I think it really misses out. Unless you have specific decks for different "adventures." Even then someone might pull out the best magic sword out of the draw deck on the first turn and be Grognak The Invincible for the rest of the game.

I have an unconventional but I think interesting idea for you. Have you thought about leveling skills individually. Let's say you have your warrior character, and he's able to use any weapons and armor but no magic, and he starts the game out with a sword. a sword at first you would need to roll a die like a d20 (or something else that's ridiculous) and he needs a 2 or less to hit. the first time he hits he gets one experience point towards swords, so now instead of rolling a d12, but he still needs only a 2 or less, but now it doubles, if he hits two more times, he graduates to a d8, then 4 times with that a d6, then finally a d20. now, keeping in mind he's using 1hand weapons. he has no exp in 2h so if he was to grab a 2h weapon he'd be back at a d20.

same thing with the shield, he would start with a d(?) needing a certain amount for a successful block. then as he successfully blocks the dice used for different checks goes down, like he's becoming better at that specific thing.

If this was the case i would try to limit the amount of items just so I can keep the player boards litter free.

i'd go,
melee weapons:
1 handed
2 handed
Polearm
Mace

ranged:
short bow
long bow

armor
light
medium
heavy

magic:
elemental
blood (like necromancy)
divine

with magic you could have the dice go down as well, but you could use that as a system of possibly miscasting the spell. so let's say he gets the stuff for his fireball spell ready and he doesn't roll the appropriate bit, it misses. I'd start with a lower level die for the magic and ranged weapons. Also, i'd figure out some sort of "mana" system for the magic, maybe an area appraise (per dragonrealms if anyone has played it) Let's say you want to use elemental magic and you're nowhere near nature, you're in the middle of a city, your cast might not be as effective. Also if you added ammunition mechanic to the bow and arrow, probably with the option of retrieving the items after you're done with the battle (to be gentler to the player) that'd be really neat.

With the armor, i would push for something simple, as you get hit, even though the armor degrades you get better at using that type of armor. you get exp for every succesful dodge or hit and instead of making the dice lower it adds a modifier to your other roles. Like if you get better at using medium armor, when you wear medium armor you get a bonus to your attack, so instead of only rolling a 3, you can roll a 6 or lower to hit, because you become accustomed to the armor type therefore are more efficient at it.

These are all just thoughts off the top of my head and it could add a whole lot of trackers and pieces to the game.
but if you give players player mats (a la zombicide) that makes keeping track of this information easy then you could be onto something really cool i think.

abdantas, I actually have something like this rolling around in my head, the challenge I have is the actual tracking of the stats, for example if you get better each time you use your 1h sword (Which makes sense) then you will have to remember every combat round to make a note that you used it or that you switched to a Bow etc.. and after say 20 uses you go up 1pt or something. What I am trying to do in the game is to make tracking things simple, no writing down and I really want to implement this type of mechanic but struggleing with how. thank you this it is giving me more to roll around.

UnnumberedT wrote:
For me, it's a matter of stats vs. skills. I agree that if players and monsters level in parallel, then leveling can be a little silly. Does a level 5 dragon play just like a level 1 goblin? Maybe the dragon has a different name and a different image, but if the only gameplay-relevant difference is in the stats (e.g. strength, HP), then you're just reskinning things, and not really growing the game. Advancing in stats does create some sense of accomplishment, and there is value to that, but IMHO, a good game does more than this.

UnnumberedT, I agree whole heartily that is why I started the thread, to me going up in Numbers is kind of pointless, great I now have 15 points of dmg to deal out over the 5 I started with, but the monsters are also harder and are no longer 3hp and now have 40hps. I really see value in new skills and abilities, they get your appetite wet you see a spell or ability that is a devastating bonus but you cant use it until you are level 3 or have a 2h weapon that makes you really want to dig in and gives you a goal to aim for. I have yet to add Skill and Abilities, I have it noted down and am planning to implement. Thank you for the advice.

Pantomime
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Joined: 01/23/2013
Leveling is tricky. I believe

Leveling is tricky. I believe it is used to pace content. So you know the dragon is a level 10 encounter, and at optimal play players will gain level 10 at around the 23rd turn mark. So the players who are playing poorly having to take time out to heal and miss out on a steady flow of experience will be behind that pacing.

With that being said, my example was for a competitive multiplayer game. Thats the only time I will use leveling, rewarding good play with an increase in power over your peers. PVE (player vs environment) can be tailored in such a way to completely ignore levels, or make it revolve around equipment and getting better equipment becomes your pacing.

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