Skip to Content
 

Penalties or bad stuff suggestions.

12 replies [Last post]
frothi
Offline
Joined: 05/21/2016

Hi Randy here, i am rather new to whole board game design thing so any tip or advice would be appreciated.

Currently i am trying to design a worker placement game where players are noblemen that are competing against each other for the crown. In order to do so they need accumulate a set amount of victory points by hiring a team of specialists to complete quests in the kingdom.

Players are given a set amount of gold each round which they can choose to either save up so that they have enough gold to hire a team to complete a quest or spend it on a hiring a specialist to solve a problem that occurs each round. Note that specialist require being paid every single time they work.

So the whole dynamic of the game is choosing how spend your gold. Do you A) ignore the the problems that occur every round just so that you can complete a quest faster? Or do you B)Fix some of the problem that occur each round at the cost of being slower than your competitors?

So my question would be, how should I punish players for neglecting a reoccurring problem? Loss of victory points? Loss of gold? Incapacitate one of the specialist in a player's payroll? Hp system? One thing i want to make sure is that penalties should be bad enough that players would make a effort to avoid them. However they shouldn't be so strong that it destroys a player's chance at victory.

I am open to suggestions. Currently i am leaning towards a district Hp system where ignoring the problem will eventually destroy a portion of the city forcing the player to forfeit.

Anyway thanks for listening.

adversitygames
adversitygames's picture
Offline
Joined: 09/02/2014
You need to get outside of

You need to get outside of your own perspective more. We don't know what's in your game, what mechanics it has, what resources it has (beside money), so we can't make relevant suggestions for penalties.

(we can, at best, make generic guesses that could apply anywhere)

And you've already made a bunch of suggestions there, so I don't really know what you're asking for. Do you want us to pick one of those options for you or something?

polyobsessive
polyobsessive's picture
Offline
Joined: 12/11/2015
Maybe reward success rather than punish failure

My experience so far suggests that people usually respond better to positive stimuli than negatives.

So if you want to encourage people to sometimes spend their resources on dealing with an event rather than focusing purely on moving towards victory, then perhaps you could try giving some significant benefit to diverting your resources that way. Perhaps if you deal with the dragon problem you might end up being the proud owner of a pile of dragon scales which might allow you some additional actions later. Or something. The "punishment" for not dealing with a problem would be that someone else might get the benefit.

Do this right and you might end up with alternate paths to victory, which has to be a good thing -- though you then need to try to balance the options, but that is a good problem to have.

But as Seph pointed out, you haven't really given enough details to allow us to give really solid advice here.

Supafrieke
Supafrieke's picture
Offline
Joined: 02/22/2015
I'm not sure why you couldn't

I'm not sure why you couldn't do all of the things you've already thought up. If each "problem" is a card... Deal a new problem to each location and then players can decide whether or not they want to deal with it; depending on how badly the negatives will affect them, or if they want the bonus from resolving it.

Example:

A player has a set of specialists (Engineers) brought together to build some castle as a Quest that will grant control of a location. The location he wants to build the castle has 2 problem cards. He looks at the cards and sees that one of them is a food shortage, each specialist will require one extra food in payment for work done at the location. He has a stockpile of food; so he will ignore that card. The second card is a conscription for sieging a foreign castle; cancelling all Engineers used at the location. He obviously can't ignore that "problem" and so pays scutage instead of losing his specialist.

Some problems could also only have a "positive" side. Maybe something like spend some resources to put on a Tournament, and you collect a Knight specialist for your next Quest.

mcobb83
Offline
Joined: 06/07/2016
I always favoured making the

I always favoured making the punishment a little understated - and to fit the crime. I like having delayed consequences that come back to bite players 2 or 3 turns later.

For example, my game features random spawn Vikings that attack. Players can choose to ignore these Vikings, as they don't actually influence the win/loss condition much (at least right away). But then ignoring them for 2 or 3 turns often becomes disastrous as the Vikings rampage around the country side and slowly - ever so slowly - accrue the loss condition points.

I don't know how easy it is to apply to your game, but a slow burn loss condition is always "nice". Another alternative is to use something similar to the Reckoning mechanic from Eldritch Horror.

frothi
Offline
Joined: 05/21/2016
Thanks for the replies and

Thanks for the replies and sorry for not providing a better picture, the game is still in its infancy, with me trying to make a very basic prototype for me to customize and test on.

That said, in game, gold is only resource you own and you use that to influence the many specialists on the board. There are 3 random quest cards on the board, each with their own upkeep cost, consequence effect and a completition cost.

So for a example lets say there was a kraken attack in the harbor quest card. The upkeep cost would be like, Soldier: 1d6+2 and scientist:1d6+1. Players seeing this need to decide on either hiring enough soldiers and scientists to avoid the badstuff or just accept the bad stuff. The completion cost is like the upkeep cost however is alot bigger. By doing the completetion cost you end the quest and get alot of vp.

As in regards to specialist there will be a 10 on the board. With more added in as the game progresses. Types of specialist would include soldier, scientist, occultist, rogue, and adventurer.

So game set up would be 3 random quests and 10 random specialist. In a round players would take turns placing one gold on a specialist that they need. It continues onto the next player until everyone decide to pay no more gold or cant pay any more. Afterward specialist are distributed by the amount of gold place on them. If there is a tie then it rock paper scissors to decide. After that quest upkeeps occur and players who have enough of a specific specialist will ignore the bad stuff. End of round. Next round player do the same thing with any specialist that isnt paid for will return to the board and any that are paid for a second time are able to be used for completing a quest.

This is a really rough prototype that i am trying to make. The numbers are not set in stone and what i am really trying to do is make a default boring setting for everything to be measured by. Which is why i need to decide on a default consequence for players who ignore or cant pay the upkeep cost.

Due to limited amount of specialist player are bound to fail upkeepss, so the effects must not be crippling but at the same time if you manage to get through you get more gold for the next round.

Thanks again for reading.

Rick L
Rick L's picture
Offline
Joined: 08/22/2016
I would add as a general note

I would add as a general note to keep in mind - in my opinion it's better to have negative consequences come as a natural result, not as a rule that adds a "punishment". Example: you can invest resources in a temporary boost to an ability that gives a large, immediate advantage, or you can save your resources for a smaller, more expensive permanent boost to that ability. You may choose the temporary boost, but once it expires, the natural penalty is that you're back to normal and your resources are depleted simply from purchasing that boost. No need to add a punishment.

Alternatively, if you save up for the permanent boost, you can always count on it to be there - the downside is that in the meantime you're more vulnerable or less capable until you finally can afford the permanent boost.

Both options have pros and cons, without needing to punish anyone.

frothi
Offline
Joined: 05/21/2016
Wait is there a reason why

Wait is there a reason why negative reinforcement is not encouraged as a consequence?

The large reason why i wanted negative consequences for my game is mostly for immersion. If a kraken attacks a harbor then i want it to impact the game setting. I mean i can tie in a reward which could be main reason for completing a quest, however i want the players to feel something is at stake when they ignore a problem.

polyobsessive
polyobsessive's picture
Offline
Joined: 12/11/2015
Consequences

frothi wrote:
Wait is there a reason why negative reinforcement is not encouraged as a consequence?

Not as such. There is nothing wrong with negative consequences, and Lew Pulsipher (who posts here pretty regularly) has talked on the tendency of modern games to heap rewards on people, rather than to punish poor play, and I am certain he is not alone in that. (I hope I'm not misrepresenting you, Lew!)

I think that the issue is that when most people play games they like to come away with positive feelings, so losing because they didn't build quite as nicely as the winner is often a better outcome than losing because they got ground into the dust by whatever forces. This possibly explains the popularity of "point salad" games like those created by Stephan Feld, where just about everything you do scores points and the contest is in trying to score most efficiently.

This doesn't apply to everyone, or every game, and there is no reason why a punishing game can't be awesome. Providing a snowballing punishment for not dealing with some challenge could be fantastic. My preference, however, would be to first look for ways to reward good play rather than punish poor, and if that didn't work out as I wanted, try the other way around.

Zag24
Offline
Joined: 03/02/2014
Upkeep and degrading buildings

I don't hate the idea of a penalty, as long as it makes sense. Also, it should be small enough to tolerate, occasionally, and reasonable to rectify.

For instance, perhaps each kingdom starts with a Gold Mine in excellent condition (12 hit points). It produces 6 gold per turn and requires 1 gold of upkeep. You can skip paying the upkeep, but it will degrade by one HP each turn you skip its upkeep. At 10 HP, it only produces 5 gold per turn; at 8 HP, 4 per turn, etc. You can restore 3 HP in one turn for 4 gold, so it's only a little more expensive than the upkeep would have been). (Maybe even just one for one, because you've already lost some of the income.)

It's trickier to balance the degradation of other buildings that produce something other than gold, but you could work them out in play testing.

Rick L
Rick L's picture
Offline
Joined: 08/22/2016
I think the scenario you

I think the scenario you mentioned about a Kraken attacking and your decision to deal with it or not sounds like it has the "built-in" consequences I was talking about. But it does need to have a balance - if you ignore a problem like that, your other option needs to have the potential for a worthwhile reward. And I'm sure you've thought that through already.

I had the impression you were trying to add some further punishment for making certain choices. I've researched this in games that try to force a leading player to have disadvantages - not because of poor choices, but simply because they're ahead.

adversitygames
adversitygames's picture
Offline
Joined: 09/02/2014
I think the positive

I think the positive reinforcement vs. negative reinforcement comes down to how well players handle adversity.

I think negative reinforcement is very offputting for people who haven't learned how to handle failure well, they find it discouraging and want to give up. They feel like they've lost something or have had something taken from them. Overall I think it's a bad gaming attitude and everyone would be better off learning how to take setbacks well.

So positive reinforcement/point salad games where you only get bonuses and never penalties never trigger this feeling, even if mechanically and in terms of victory conditions it all works out the same as a game that has negative reinforcement.

(eg in a game, one scoring scheme gives you 0 points for a mistake, 2 points for an average move, 4 points for a great move
another scoring system gives you -2 points for a mistake, 0 points for an average move, 2 points for a great move

overall, your position compared to the other players is going to be exactly the same, but in the second case people who make mistakes and are bad at thinking about them are left feeling like they're losing)

But that doesn't change the fact that a ton of people have this problem. I don't think there's anything wrong with writing games with them in mind.

I think it depends on the overall difficulty of the game, a hard game (which takes skilled players) can have penalties because only players who are good at games are going to play it and more of them will have a good attitude to setbacks.

Meanwhile easy games will get a lot of newbie players, so it's not as reasonable to expect them to have a good attitude to setbacks.

frothi
Offline
Joined: 05/21/2016
Yea upon further thinking, I

Yea upon further thinking, I might do away with the whole upkeep consequence mechanic. Problem was that I wanted the consequences to be relevant enough so that players have good incentive to defend against it. However this is hard to balance if amounts of upkeeps cost increases. I can see players being buried if they don't keep up, with no way of getting out.

So I guess it's back to the drawing board with a new mechanic for players for players to do while they save up for the big play.

Syndicate content


forum | by Dr. Radut