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Terrain information (prototype)

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X3M
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Projectile, 14 textures displayed in word

As mentioned before, I had issue's regarding color blindness. However, that is solved by using symbols. And it gave me an extra opportunity for making complexer terrain. So I prototyped these. (See picture for the simple kind)

We did some play testing with our new terrain.

However, mistakes are quickly made if there are too much differences in symbols, in just 1 region. Not just me, but my friends too are confused at a number of times. And we need to calculate and write things down before we know the exact property of 1 region.

What was a region?:
1 Region is 1 Hexagon. Maximum worth of 3600 space for units.
With 6 triangles. Each triangle is worth of 600 space, has 3 corners and 1 center with symbols. 150 space for each symbol. (300 for a tree, which consumes 2 symbols) However, the total Hexagon has now 24 symbols. And they all are needed to know what the distribution of the terrain statistics are.

Further, the tree's are now a factor then an absolute number for the triangle. It indicates that all the space in the triangle is divided by 2. So is the projectile movement.

The complexity happens when several biome's come together in one region.

For example. If a region has 2 green tree's (tree on grass), 1 dead tree (tree on sand) 6 sand symbols, 6 rocks and 6 water symbols. Then I can't tell right away what the projectile movement and the space for units is.
Which is needed to path finding.

With the projectiles, it really is a hassle, having 2 to 3 rounds of dice throwing to know if just 1 bullet can pass. Imagine having 20 bullets.

------------------------------

I need to simplify...
A lot!

Yet a good way to have different parts in my regions. What are my options?

Return back to having only the 6 different triangle's? Where each possibility for the triangle is described in the manual, instead of the entire region?
(Still possible to make beaches and stuff)
(No more rocky terrain or having debris in the sea)

Or

Having the simplicity back to the entire Region?

Or

Having the numbers calculated before hand and then written in the region? Which looks bad. And putting these numbers on the back is not really an option since the map is stuffed with pieces.

Or

Any other suggestions would help me. I am in a pinch here.

Jarec
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I'm not sure if I understood

I'm not sure if I understood all that correctly, but I can see looking at the picture right now, that readability is an issue. Not because the low res, but the amount of stuff there is on one tile.

I'd just cut that 6 symbols to half. Like deep forest 2/3 slots for trees, forest's edge 1/3 trees, grassland 0/3, and making their background colors more distinct (from dark green to light green). That'll add a lot of readability. And keep just one biome on one tile.

Or making your hexes bigger (what are those now, 1 - 1½ inces?), like 2" or even bigger per tile might let you keep those 6 symbols, while making the whole map smaller. I just feel that so much (mechanical)detail crammed in so small space makes it too heavy to play.
I also think it never hurts if you just print the main modifiers in two corners of each tile, which is easier to do when they're bigger.

And one really simple thing for readability is just to make hex's black borders thicker.

Are you thinking of actually generating the regions on the fly rather than having preprinted hexes?

X3M
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Thanks for your reply. 2

Thanks for your reply.

2 inch, was looking for actually making things smaller in the future. And yes, they are kinda crammed.

No problems during play testing:
- The color wont be a problem, it can be changed any time.
- The thickness of the borders is no problem either.

There are also halves and thirds of regions. So I need to make a proper design that displays correctly even on those. Thus having only 2 modifiers is not enough. 6 will still be a must have. However, they just all 6 look the same.

We used to have only color. But since my buddy is color blind. We introduced the symbols together with a bit more complex terrain. We Always wanted to have beaches and swamps and stuff.

Perhaps having tree's being equal to other terrain? Thus not a modifier, but a biome on its own like it used to be?

So until now the choice lays on having 6 instead of 24 symbols. 6 is possible, right?

X3M
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What do you think about the

What do you think about the following?

Before I completely discard the segments.
I want to try having 6 segments for each terrain.
And I will put pointers in the manual for easy recognition.

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A region has 6 triangles.
Each triangle is from now on a basic terrain and can be:
-Water, 0 space, 6/36th hit chance
-Grass, 600 space, 6/36th hit chance
-Sand, 300 space, 6/36th hit chance
-Mountain, 0 space, 0 hit chance

Tree's divide space and the hit chance by 2.

Terrain with tree's:
-Forrest, 300 space, 3/36th hit chance
-Dead Forrest, 150 space, 3/36th hit chance
-??? tree's in water are called?
0 space, 3/36th hit chance
-??? tree's on mountains are called?
0 space, 0/36th hit chance

Terrain Combinations:
-Water with Grass; Swamp, 300 S, 6/36th HC.
-Water with Sand; Mud, 150 S, 6/36th HC.
-Water with Mountain; Rocky sea, 0 S, 3/36th HC.
-Grass with Sand; ???, 450 S, 6/36th HC.
-Grass with Mountain; Rocky terrain, 300 S, 3/36th HC.
-Sand with Mountain; Rocky dessert, 150 S, 3/36th HC.

Combinations with tree's:
-Water, Grass; Swamp Forrest, 150 S, 3/36th HC.
-Water, Sand; Muddy Forrest, 75 S, 3/36th HC.
-Water, Mountain; ???, 0 S, 1.5/36th HC.
-Grass, Sand; ???, 225 S, 3/36th HC.
-Grass, Mountain; Chaotic terrain, 150 S, 1.5/36th HC.
-Sand, Mountain; Chaotic dessert, 75 S, 1.5/36th HC.

In case of 1.5/36th HC, there are always 2 segments with these. Unless the region is a halve one.

All the space is added up, and all the hit chance are added up.
6 times grass would be:
6 times 600 space = 3600 and
6 times 6/36th hit chance = 36/36th hit chance (100%)

Halve regions have 12/36th or 6/36th hit chance per triangle
and one-third regions have 18/36th or 9/36th hit chance per triangle. As if the rest of the missing region would be the same.

There is only adding up now. No multiplying or dividing.
With 14 basic terrains, there are a little over 7 million design possibilities for 1 region.

Please fill in the ??? since I need to be giving proper names now.

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I will be needing 2 colors of dice now. This solely for the hit chance that terrain will offer.
There is also need for a proper table. Luckily all chances are now build up out of 3 per 36. So with a red and blue dice we would get:
3: <=1R, <=3B
6: <=1R
9: <=3R, <=3B
12: <=2R
15: <=5R, <=3B
18: <=3R
21: <=5R, <=3B = miss
24: <=4R
27: <=3R, <=3B = miss
30: <=5R
33: <=1R, <=3B = miss
36: no roll needed

PS. I hate the fact that we can design posts with courier new. But the end result removes this.

Jarec
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Again, my two cents

How about ditching the tree mechanic, and just add a Forest for fifth basic terrain?

Also by removing the Mountain from the list and replacing it with Hills, you'd get your elevation (I guess that your Health+Altitude thread was about this game). And when combining Forest with Hills, you'd get your (nigh) impassable Mountains.

One question I can't wrap my head around: How are the players moving their armies(?) from a full grassland into like a muddy forest? Are they squeezing through one dude at a time?
How are you actually representing the units in this game?

And how do I read that die chart?

Also, sand + mountain is definitely Badlands.

X3M
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All my play testers like the

All my play testers like the idea of forest as addition to the terrain. It used to be a basic terrain. But my friends rather had mixed terrain with mixed effects.

Besides, the tree's are going to support ninja and shinobi in other war games. ;)

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Yes, they squeeze 1 dude at a time :).

The mechanic is simple:
Each player has 6 action points/round.
Each player can only do 1 action at a time.

If a player chooses to move a squad. There is no problem.
Until a region is in the path with only 1200 space. Then that 36oo sized army will be needing 3 action points to move through that terrain. This takes time since each player plays an action in turn. During the movement, a smaller part, 1200, gets across. Thus divided. Which is a good opportunity to attack this player. Since it is weak in defending.

Not only goes it slower, the player that wants this will be doing less with the squad entirely.

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The hit miss ratio?

Well, if a region claims that each bullet has a hit chance of 15/36th or 21/36th. Then 2 dice are rolled. With the 15/36th, red needs to roll 5 or lower and blue needs to roll 3 or lower. 5/6 x 3/6 = 15/36. And then that player has a hit.
It just so happens that you also can use the same roll for a miss. But having a 15/36 miss chance, that is the same as a 21/36 hit chance.

Jarec
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Why two colored dice

So why the colored dice, if combat rolls are simple D6 x D6 with the target number of the terrain difficulty?

And if a full unit of 3600 dudes is jumping from grassland to that dreaded muddy forest, it would take 8 action points for them to do this, so over one turn. How would you represent this in the game?
Do you have multiple miniatures or is that something a player needs to remember himself?

Is there a need to have every basic terrain to have trees? Do the Shinobi really have the need to go to the sea where no one else can go?

X3M
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There might be confusion

There might be confusion which dice will have to be 5 or lower, and which one 3 or lower. Thus 2 colors.
Of course players could throw twice, perhaps that is better since there might be 40 projectiles flying over.

Yeah, you are right, the 2 colors is a remaining of the 24 segments. Since there things got very complicated. I forgot :D

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You are correct, it takes 8 action points for 3600 worth of units to cross the forest mud. That can be done in 2 rounds. Unless the player has 2 extra action points.
The representation depends on the units themselves. We have multiple miniatures.
Obviously units bigger then 450 are not allowed. They get stuck actually. Thus "They shall not PASS!".
450 and smaller have to go alone or in groups. If there are rifle infantry, each worth 100, then only 4 can cross the forest mud. This even takes 9 AP.

And I forgot to mention. If there are units in that mud forest. Lets say a Grenadier worth 150. Then only 300 remains for crossing. So you can actually seal of a small entrance.

Walls have a cheap function there as well. ;) The cheapest 30 each. Thus we need to destroy 4 of those before even 1 Rifle Infantry can pass.

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Not every basic terrain will have tree's.
But the edge of an forest will have less.
There are also open grass fields, open desserts, "open" mountains and "open" water. Tree's and Rocks and ??? are extra limitations.

Hoovers would be able to go to the sea, over the sea, and fire from the sea instead from land. They could start outranging other units too. Now there is no difference in propulsion, plans for the expansion; there are.
Where normal units can only cross forest by 50%, shinobi still can do this with 100%. They could do an attack twice as strong from a certain direction. And a factor 2 means a lot in combat.
The same goes for Hoovers where swamps (only grass and water) will provide the player 100% force.
Well, there is a penalty in the costs. But the squad will still be stronger and has more camping options.

X3M
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Kinda starting to throw the

Kinda starting to throw the touwel here.

Even 6 segments gives some trouble. Like straight path's for projectiles that need reduction anyway. Or corners that do allow projectiles to move through.

Thus the entire hexagon is allowed to have only 1 type of terrain. These can be mixed without having segments.

If I go to basic only (20).
Then how to get really extreme numbers like only 300 space and such?

The lowest number that I have right now is 450 space.

Is it normal for games to have like 20 or more different terrains?

X3M
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Completely stuck

I am completely stuck. I don't know what to choose and what is best.

I completely discarded the mixing of terrain. However, I want to have several options.
As how things are now. I simply have water, forest, mountain, grass and sand.

And a recently introduced difference in altitudes of terrain which works seperately from the terrain influences.

But I (and my friends) want more.
We want swamps, trenches, dessert hills, "impassable" sea's etc.

We simply don't know what is best at this point. Should forrest be an addition to terrain? Should mountain be an addition to terrain? What about the basis of the terrain? How to keep track of grass, sand or water?
With keeping an eye on future expansions. I need to think of a better version of this all.
Where everything is in between the grass (100% space, 100% projectile movement) and high mountains (0%, and 0%). But not only that. We want those small trenches badly. Where only something like 300 space is allowed.

Thus the map is on hiatus until we have found a way. Or someone here has a good suggestion for us to look. Hexagrapher has a lot, but not all.

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Of course, terrain names with descriptions are welcome.
I'll post a list of possibilities later on. Anything goes, just shoot at me.

An example is:
Trench (3/6th)
A dessert terrain with 50% Mountain. Reducing space to only 1800 and projectile movement to only 50%.
Trench (1/6th)
A dessert terrain with 83% Mountain. Reducing space to only 600 and projectile movement to only 17%.

A small hallway in a mountain is called trench right?

X3M
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New approach

A new approach, hopefully easier to understand and better to use. No longer the "colorblindfriendly" low bit pictures. But something better is planned.

Ow, and the spelling doesn't work here. Not sure about Terrain/Terain and Forrest/Forest.
It is Desert, not Dessert, I am sure about that ;)

***

I did a lot of brainwashing,... I mean brainstorming.
-So I decided on only having 3 basic terrains: Grass/Sand/Water.
-And 2 possible additions: Tree's/Rocks or Hills.
-Subterrain simply copies what is above, where Tree's give roots and Rocks/Hills give Bedrock. And where water has deep water and Grass and Sand have Dirt.
I actually got this idea from you Jarec. The having hills comment. But went in the other direction instead by having them as addition instead as basic terrain. So, no more Tree's on top of Mountains. Nor having Forrest as a basic terrain. They exist next to each other on the other terrain.

The terrain by general names, also the pictures are like these. Well, I am going to use foto's from the internet and try to fill in this list as much as possible. It will look better. Also having some doubles will help me:

Grassland ( (G) Grass)
Desert ( (S) Sand)
Sea/River ( (W) Water)

G+S Savannah
G+W River Crossing/Swamp
S+W Beach/Mud

Forest additions:
on Grass is Forest
on Sand is Palm Forest
on Water is Mangrove Forest
on Savannah is Savannah Forest
on River Crossing will have Mangrove and visible grass in water
on Swamp is Swamp Forest
on Beach is Palm Beach
on Mud will have Mangrove and visible mud as ground

Rocks additions:
on Grass are Rocky Terrain or Hills
on Sand are Rocky Desert or Desert Hills (Dune's)
on Water are Rocky Sea
on Savannah are Rocky Savannah or Savannah Hills
on River Crossing are Rocky River Crossing
on Swamp are Rocky Swamps
on Beach are Rocky Beach or Beach Hills (Dune's)
on Mud are Rocky Mud

---> Better descriptions are welcome. But this does give an idea of how the terrain will look like.

***

I also will allow different altitudes. I have the material for this :).
Not only there is a reduction in Range when firing upwards. There is also a reduction in a hit chance with 5/6th (not 4/6th because... see next lines).
And a region that has a higher altitude counts as 100% Mountain.
If a region behind this higher region has the same altitude or higher. It is still hitable. But if that region is lower, it has 0% hit chance.
It works perfectly.

***

Not sure about the following:

Each region will have 1 to 5 numbers. The first 3 are the basic Terrain. A total of 6, or should I display the size instead? And the last 2 are Tree's and Rocks/Hills. Even though they reduce size, perhaps I should already implement this in the first 3 numbers. And only use the last 2 for projectile reduction?

Since there are different propulsion systems. Perhaps telling the players that basic units have only half the space that the dessert number indicates and 0 times the water number.

Thus a space of for example 1800-600-0 would be 1800G-1200S-600W on the region.
If I where to add the numbers for Tree's and Rocks/Hills. For example 2T-1R. Players need to calculate the effects. 2T actually is 1R if it comes to size reduction and projectile reduction. Thus 2F1R = 2R out of 6 is only 4/6th in space.

Now, I bet that was confusing. So I could simply say:
3G-2S-1W-2T-1R
If an region has those numbers. Can players calculate what the effects are?

By watching different size possibilities:
Basic has 100%G and 50%S
Hoover has 100% G, S and W
Boats have only 100%W
Ninja has Basic, but ignores T and R when it comes to size.

A basic unit has 100% on G and 50% on S. Thus 3+(50%*2)=4 out of 6 parts are size. Out of 3600. Thus 2400.
Now for basic units 2T-1R means 50% on T. Thus 2 out of 6 parts are a reduction is size. Thus size is only 4/6th for basic, multiplied by 2400 is 1600.
That same 4/6th is the projectile reduction. Easy enough, this is decided with dice. It goes for all basic weapons and is further ignored in this example.

A hoover has 3G+2S+1W, all 100% in size, thus 3600 remains.
However, the 4/6th in size reduction is still applied. 2400 remains for Hoovers.

A boat has 1W, 100% in size, thus 600 remains.
With size reduction, we have only 400 for a boat.

A ninja (a basic) has no size reduction from T and R. Thus 2400 in size.

Air of course has 100% on all, and ignores T and R. Size is 3600.

---> My question is: Did any one of you understand how this works?
---> Not sure how to approach a mix of basic and hoovers and boats and whatever. This is important. Perhaps looking at the difference between the numbers, and decide on the lower numbers first. So if you have a boat (400 for the boat), a basic (1600 for the boat + basic) and a hoover (2400 for all 3). You look if the boat fits, then "plus" the basic then "plus" the hoover.
There is no math miscalculation in that, right?

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