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Using Top-Bottom or Bottom-up approach to design data

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larienna
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At some point of the game design, where you know how the rules of your game is going to work, you need to design data. Like making cards with special abilities, designing unit stats, etc.

Now I found 2 ways to do this, they are not for me the easiest methods to use, but I was wondering if any of you had a different method or ideas for data design.

Method A: Calculate all the possible combinations. Or use another game's data as example to help plan ahead all possibilities of abilities. Then design your cards by making a selection within this list.

Pro
Allow to see how much ability permution is possible to do in your game
Make sure you do not miss or forget a branch of abilities
Can plan better the distribution of abilities between factions or groups in your game.

Con
Can be very Exhaustive to do, you might only do a portion of it.
Might not be easy to determine what are all the possibilities.

Method B: Use the theme as a base source of inspiration. Find thematic data you want to appear in the game and try to convert that information as rules.

Pro
More fun to design, seems less mathematical
Logical reason behind the rules

Con
Can forget branches of abilities
Can lead to redundant abilities, since does not know other things exists
Factions or groups of data could be similar since could not plan ahead differentiation.

From that analysis, the best solution would be to use an hydrid of both. Use a selection of abilities that might not be exhaustive then start with a theme ad try to fid a matching ability.

What do you think?
Do you use other solutions?

Orangebeard
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Theme

I tend to use the theme approach to build the framework for abilities and then use a "baseline" as the starting point for each model/character/etc. For example, a regular soldier has these standard abilities or stats; the bird-people are fast so they will have a higher movement stat, the rock-people have a better armor stat, etc.

I rarely use the permutation approach as I think it adds too much of a "calculated" feel to the game. However, having said this, I do agree that a mathematical analysis is good for catching oversights or statistical design problems.

Stormyknight1976
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Joined: 04/08/2012
Theme

I work with the theme and storyline. There have been times an ability comes to mind for a monster that has already been used for another game, so I tend to think about how I can change it or reword it or go something entirely new. For me I am meticulous about details for my monsters abilities. I also with what the deck feels for balance. When I look at the name of the monster and nothing comes to mind, I stick to what and how I think this monster is played and its habitat in the story.

Procylon
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I agree with your pro's and

I agree with your pro's and cons, with maybe the addition of some consideration about how the players see all this in the game. Designing the system is one thing, but how the players interpret it may be entirely different. One point of using the mathematical design could be to make a more consistent, predictable world for the players in a way that keeps them drawn into the game without distracting them with obviously "gamey" mechanics that may result if you paint yourself into a corner.

When I reached the end of your post I was wondering if you had considered the hybrid approach, but it appears that you have.

I have been wrestling with this for my own design, with a tug of war going on in my head about which of the 2 options I should put more focus on.

In the end(or maybe for now), I have chosen to build my foundation primarily mathematically, instead of thematically.

The reason for this is that the foundation of my systems should be extremely stable. I should be able to rely on it to work roughly the same way, no matter which theme I throw at it. This allows me more design space when creating themes since I know the core of the game can support it without tearing itself apart.

For example:

7 Domains(think super Color Pie), with 7 classes in each Domain(each tied to one of the 7 primary attributes). For instance, 3 of the domains are Physical, Mental, and Spiritual and there is 1 Power Attribute class(Warrior, Arcanist, and Warlock respectively) in each of those domains. Each of those Power classes is roughly equivalent stat-wise, but where they differ comes in the theme which I have great room to manipulate since I have a stable, balanced Core.

Additionally, the 7 stats(3 offense, 3 defense, 1 energy) are all balanced in relation to each other, with no gaps.

Other systems are also mathematically balanced such as the weapon/armor system, which acts as a secondary class structure. With the core of the game mathematically balanced, it leaves more room for me to play around with the themes. Pull off the same results with different play styles and basically spend most of my efforts balancing at the point of creation instead of all throughout my systems.

The theme will play itself out in the races, elements, nationalities, etc of the world I am creating.

Elements are actually what was tying me up for months, because they are so thematically driven. Elements such as fire, ice, spirit, chaos, plant, animal, explosives, etc, etc. The possibilities are endless. I could never tie it down and be satisfied that I had covered all the bases(couldn't keep track of all the branch abilities) so I had to flip my system on it's head.

Now I don't have to keep track of branch abilities, as each element stands on it's own. A pyromancer and volcanist may both use fire, but in the end they can go about their business in completely different ways. Both may be tied to the same core class and weapon, or they could use a completely different base. Either choice is only relevant to the theme, and not my core balance.

larienna
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In the "Symmetry/assymetry"

In the "Symmetry/assymetry" thread, an idea that was discussed is give each faction primary and secondary objectives. Which are some sort of higher level view on the special powers.

For example you could have a list of special powers grouped by type of mechanics and distribute them according to primary and secondary objectives you set yourself up for each faction.

I have been working on a CCG lately and realized that I could not find all possible combinations. But by using a basic set of abilities, new ideas will comes in as the game prototype gets played. So partially designing the list of abilities could be a solution.

Procylon
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By primary and secondary

By primary and secondary objectives, you mean similar to the ways Blue can win in MTG? Mill their deck, control all their permanents, reduce their life to 0, etc?

Basically the color pie from MTG. This faction gets these, and not these. Or it gets the others, but it costs more resources or some other sacrifice. Kind of like creating asymmetry within your symmetrical system.

I think symmetry is key at least in some areas for a few reasons. Balance is the obvious reason. Another is that humans are drawn to symmetry, since most of the world(especially biological) is symmetrical in some way or another. Another is that symmetry can simplify some of the more complicated mechanics that you don't necessarily want players to either focus on, or spend too much brain power or game time thinking about. For instance, all characters use life points. If you mess with that symmetry be prepared for players to be asking all kinds of questions. If you planned for that, that can be good asymmetry, but if not then you may be over complicating your game.

I believe asymmetry is best used on the aspects of your game that you want to be most appealing and take up most of your player's time. The Melee/Healer/Ranged trinity is a classic example of asymmetric design at work. 3 unique concepts that can be hard to balance but are designed to draw and/or keep the player's interest. There is a lot of symmetry underlying that Trinity of course. Skill points, Life Points, Damage Types, etc. Mana, unless the designers want to introduce asymmetry by giving the classes different types of energy.

In order to keep the complexity of the game in check, you may make one system symmetrical just so you can make another asymmetrical, if that is where you want to draw the attention.

For your CCG, you might google for a list of all the MtG abilities, keywords, etc. Compile all of those mechanics into a spreadsheet and think about mechanics that the MtG has missed or simply not implemented yet. Even with all that MtG has created over the years, there are tons of abilities that you could add(or even subtract) to a CCG to go above and beyond MtG, especially if you have other unique systems to play off. There are also plenty of other CCG's to draw examples and inspiration from, though I don't think any are as extensive as MtG at this point.

larienna
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Quote:For your CCG, you might

Quote:
For your CCG, you might google for a list of all the MtG abilities, keywords, etc. Compile all of those mechanics into a spreadsheet and think about mechanics that the MtG has missed or simply not implemented yet.

Somewhat done already. I did find new mechanics out of those mechanics. Now that I have a small library of abilities, playing the game should uncover new abilities.

laperen
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Joined: 04/30/2013
a hybrid if you use it

a hybrid if you use it right

the bottom up approach MUST be used to design your core cards, the basic of the basic, the cards that express the mechanics of your game

you can go top down when you get the core cards right, then you experiment with themes and effects since you have a yardstick to go by already

Itsdan
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Joined: 05/19/2013
I'd agree with laperen. I

I'd agree with laperen. I tend to start by opening excel and throwing in some cards with stats that 'feel right', and then try to come up with some metrics and/or charts so I can observe how tweaks change things. For example if my cards include a Quantity field, if they appear in the deck multiple times, I can calculate deck size, then I know if I'm staying in the realm of reasonableness with the number of cards. You could calculate strength, or the probability of some combination being drawn by a player, etc. when that's in place it feels right to switch to top down and begin experiencing your 'numbers' as a game. Okay there's a 1 in 5 chance of drawing the combination I want, but does it feel like that or does it feel impossible? If it feels impossible I can increase the # of those cards in the deck but I can also, because I did the initial work of exploring combinations and numbers, see how that change might affect other combinations.

larienna
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So in summary, for the first

So in summary, for the first draft you just use your intuition and make for example a set of cards with the ideas that comes into your mind. Then while playing, you can explore more the possibilities and permutation you can do with your cards.

Itsdan
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Yeah I'd say so, although I'm

Yeah I'd say so, although I'm sure everyone has their own way of doing things. I think it's important not to get hung up on the idea that you'll create the game perfectly the first time you prototype. Computers and calculators and excel are indispensable tools, but things occur once it's a game you can't predict in a computer model.

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