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War Games

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leafeater
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I am not much of a war game player, but I am working on one for fun and any help from war gamers would be appreciated.
Do war games prefer detailed, historically accurate games or just old fashioned attach the other player and the theme is not really important?

Has anyone worked with a mechanic to attack without the use of dice? I was thinking of using tactic cards that build strength for the attacker (his hit points for the battle) while also diminishing his army and lowering his opponents strength. The player must balance his strength v. his army size while also trying to lower his opponents strength with the same cards.

It is feasible?

apeloverage
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I guess it depends what you mean

by war games.

When I was younger, 'war games' meant specifically Avalon-Hill style games which had very complicated rules and were supposedly historically accurate, rather than basically abstract games like Risk.

I don't know if they still use the phrase 'war games' for things like Heroclix or Warhammer do they?

gameprinter
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It depends...

There are two types of war/historical game in vogue right now.

One is the detailed, historically accurate, "traditional" war game as epitomized by games from GMT Games or Multiman Publishing. These games demand historical accuracy tempered by playability.

Two is the less detailed, less accurate war game as epitomized by Memoir '44, Battle Cry, or maybe Axis and Allies or Tide of Iron. These emphasize playbility tempered by historical accuracy.

If you want to do a fantasy or science fiction themed game, then all bets are off, however. Those genres are all over the map in terms of styles and game play. :)

Best of luck with the design! The mechanism sounds interesting.

Rick-Holzgrafe
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Examples of non-random combat

leafeater wrote:
Has anyone worked with a mechanic to attack without the use of dice? I was thinking of using tactic cards that build strength for the attacker (his hit points for the battle) while also diminishing his army and lowering his opponents strength. The player must balance his strength v. his army size while also trying to lower his opponents strength with the same cards.

A Game of Thrones has non-random combat resolution. Each side adds up their visible combat strength; then calls for "support" from nearby forces (which may include other opponents); then throws in a card from their hand. Cards may add strength and/or alter the values of your own or your opponent's pieces. You know what cards your opponent can play, but not which one he will play; and of course the played cards are discarded and can't be used again for a while. It works surprisingly well.

Antike and Imperial use a simple non-random system with no surprises. Combat units are simply discarded in pairs (one of yours, one of mine) until somebody runs out of units. Because combat is so predictable, you don't attack unless you know you're going to win. (Actually I think it's illegal if you aren't going to win.) Clearly this only works for games with very simple bits (it wouldn't be fair for one side to lose a tank while the other loses a foot soldier), and in which there's more going on than just conquering territory (true in both Antike and Imperial).

War of the Ring uses dice, but also includes the use of cards that can alter the conditions of battle. These cards are dual purpose, so if you use one in battle you are giving up the chance to use its other non-battle power.

So yes, there's precedent; and yes, I think a system like you propose could work. I suspect you'll need to combine it with some sort of resource-production system (for getting more cards), so players have to choose between pressing their military advancement and building up their hand. I also think it might benefit from the dual-purpose mechanism. This gives more choices (and more agonizing decisions) to your players. The "other" purposes might include things like mustering new units, faster travel in non-combat situations, supplying your troops, increasing your "card harvest", and sabotaging your opponent's activities.

Blake
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Some more examples

Rick-Holzgrafe wrote:
So yes, there's precedent; and yes, I think a system like you propose could work. I suspect you'll need to combine it with some sort of resource-production system (for getting more cards), so players have to choose between pressing their military advancement and building up their hand. I also think it might benefit from the dual-purpose mechanism. This gives more choices (and more agonizing decisions) to your players. The "other" purposes might include things like mustering new units, faster travel in non-combat situations, supplying your troops, increasing your "card harvest", and sabotaging your opponent's activities.

I think those are some really good points....

Some other games you might want to look at that I believe use cards to determine the results of combat (I have not played a single one of these, so I won't try to summarize just how they work here) are: Starcraft, Cosmic Encounter, Friedrich, and Sekigahara. The last of these is still only on pre-order from GMT, but there are illustrated examples of how combat is resolved on their website.

Personally, I'm really interested in seeing more alternatives to dice and would love to hear about how your thinking develops. Best of luck!

apeloverage
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leafeater wrote:Has anyone

leafeater wrote:
Has anyone worked with a mechanic to attack without the use of dice? I was thinking of using tactic cards that build strength for the attacker (his hit points for the battle) while also diminishing his army and lowering his opponents strength. The player must balance his strength v. his army size while also trying to lower his opponents strength with the same cards.

It is feasible?

At the simplest:

Both players pick a card from their hand.

They turn the cards over at the same time.

The attacker's strength is the strength of the unit + that of the card. The defender's strength is worked out in the same way.

The two strengths are cross-referenced to give various possible results, such as one unit retreating, one or both being destroyed, the defending unit having to counter-attack next turn, one or both units being 'pinned' and unable to move except to attack, etc.

Both players then draw a replacement card.

It seems like a system along those lines might have the virtues of rolling dice (you don't know what's going to happen), but add an element of player skill (you can make an unimportant attack and play a dud card in the hope of drawing into something better for a more important area).

You could also give cards a non-combat use, so that players have to balance the card's value in combat against whatever else it can do (perhaps it helps you create treaties with other players, or cause discontent among their citizens).

supergrover6868
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Theme is a term used in way I

Theme is a term used in way I am not familiar with here. But some things to know about wargamers is:Generation Gap

The younger group typically wants wargames to be a video game on a board. They don't want to think they don't want to read, they want a movie script that can be modified by a die roll of 6. Think movie.

Older wargamers, Think history they want, they most likely know the battle or hopefully battles depicted and want to archive a victory where historically there was a loss. Hypothetical are another poular. example say at D-Day Rommel was allowed to release the Panzer's..how would it go? These wargamers know the weapons and the units and if they are not depicted properly they will be turned off.

ilta
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Re: use of randomness in

Re: use of randomness in wargames

There's an excellent article written by Dan Simmons on this very topic -- written specifically in reference to his very popular war-game "Bonaparte at Marengo," which famously uses no dice -- but more generally dealing with the use of chance within general game design, its pitfalls, and its benefits. I strongly recommend you check it out.

http://simmonsgames.com/design/Chance.html

supergrover6868
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That article shows how to

That article shows how to make wargame for a younger crowd. As a very old school type gamer I disagree with the majority of that article. Which translates to the fact that younger wargamer will love it. Also the use of the word simulation indicates its geared towards the younger crowd. In reality unless your on a military base you aren't using a simulation, but that word is used normally by the younger crowd to indicate perceived complexity.

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