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Always at Risk without being Adjacent

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Toa Lewa
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One of the things that I love about the game Risk is that players are always in a position to attack another player. The reason for this is that every territory of the board must always have at least one army on it. I would like to recreate a similar feel for my game; however, having every section of the board always occupied is not very economical (I don't have that many pieces). Does anyone have any idea how territories could always be at risk of attack without every section of the board being filled?

sethvanorden
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Well couldn't you just allow

Well couldn't you just allow people be able to attack from longer range? Like in kemet most things on the board on in danger since they can move several then attack. Or you could have them stay where they are and fire long range, like a missile.

Koen Hendrix
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Removing the "must be

Removing the "must be adjacent to attack" requirement seems the obvious solution. The specific way you do that might depend on your theme.

  • You could allow free movement through unoccupied spaces before attacking. (Airplanes/Cavalry)
  • Or put portals on the board that any army can teleport to. (Magic)
  • Or just give players one or more attack modes that can strike anywhere on the board. (Nukes/Missiles)
X3M
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See above posts. They are

See above posts. They are good suggestions.

Take a look at Axis and Allies. It is a good example where you have units that can travel further.

There is a way to combine different ranges with different speeds. Like a wargame based on RTS. However, having 2 or more fields to cross looks better on squared or hexagonal fields then on the Risk like fields. I think you want a Risk like looking map.

Perhaps you are looking for Flags?
An territory owned by a player contains at least a flag of that player. To take down, or change the flag. A certain condition has to be met. But you need many flags for this. And the board is still filled.

***

How about... you approach this with how I used to play my own version of Risk.

I allowed players to put all forces into one big army. But several or completely spread out was allowed too.

And they indeed could only attack each other when being adjacent, or in it. Control was with the territory cards. There was no other use for the cards in this version. The territories that you own could still gain armies from null. Even if there was an enemy in it.

You could not place armies on enemy territory or on an army that is in enemy territory.

For challenging another player for a territory, you had to occupy that territory for some time (3 rounds for example). The territory card is faced up from that moment and gains round counters. And a ground rule was that you could not take other actions when you where building up the rounds for a take over.
So you could not defend if you really wanted to take that territory. You had to defeat the other player first if you wanted somewhat free play.

Each round, a player could choose 1 army that could both move and attack at the same time. This works good for defending. Other armies of the same player still had to choose.

If you wanted to fight a defender, the take over would immediately stop. And has to start from null again.

If a player had one big army, it was hard to defend since it had to run around the territories. But it was good for taking over.

And having 1 or more territories adjacent to the one you wanted to take over, those could help defending against the defender. The taking over army had to hold on just long enough.

I hope this last part was helpful.

Toa Lewa
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I think I'll probably go with

I think I'll probably go with the idea that territory can be controlled without units being present (like Axis and Allies). Previously, territory control wasn't very important; however, I think I will add a system where certain areas award bonuses if they are controlled (like Risk). I still need to think about some things though. Anyway, thanks for the feedback.

Ratmilk
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questions

Got a couple if questions for you. First is what setting/level of technology are you going for and the second is what does your map like? When I'm asking about the map it is because of a couple if suggestions. An island map means you can justify all territories being under threat because navies could land anywhere on the shoreline, put a river down the middle and you can justify them landing on any territory. I'd even go so far as to keep most forces off board ready to invade at any moment. You can get the same effect if its sci-fi because troops can literally invade from the sky.

pelle
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One consideration is that

One consideration is that when everyone can attack everywhere, the game will inevitably lose some strategic depth (which can be a good or bad thing, depending on your game). Even in Risk there is still some strategy in holding choke-points, and some continents being more easy to defend than other continents.

Being forced to defend in many places, and in depth, is interesting. But being forced to also consider what combinations of areas to hold, because they can support each other, makes the game even more interesting. Also it can make an area valuable even without providing explicit bonuses there, because holding that area will make other areas safer, or threaten valuable enemy areas.

Having fewer components is a good thing, because it can leave more empty (or weakly defended) areas for the enemy to move through, making more areas threatened.

larienna
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The thing I hated about risk

The thing I hated about risk is that you could hold on for example to the whole north and south america by controlly only 3 choke points. Everything else had 1 unit. That made it annoying and boring since it's your stack of unit vs mine. There is no strategic Maneuvering.

If the pieces are limited, then forcing to have 1 unit per territory forces the front to be weaker if the player's empire is larger than if it's smaller. But that is only good if you to not want one player to take over the world.

Else in one of the risk game, you had an admiral card what you could play to make a sea invasion which somewhat by passed the chokepoints. So you could make occasional "attack anywhere" ability. That would foce players to put some defense in the back in the threat that a player decide to attack there, but they never know if it is actually going to happen.

X3M
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Risk indeed had insufficient

Risk indeed had insufficient strategy. It was more of a piling up game.

That's why I changed the rules for a more interesting game. I did not apply continent bonusses. Only the divide by 3 rule.
So having North America would allow a player to gain only 3 army pieces.
Further, there where 3 choke points to cover.

And every player was on the move, while almost no one was adjacent with armies.

Toa Lewa
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Quote:Got a couple if

Quote:
Got a couple if questions for you. First is what setting/level of technology are you going for and the second is what does your map like?

The game is called Creature Clash - War of the Elements. The game is in a fantasy setting with no technology. Each player controls and spawns creatures on the board, and each creature is composed of a classical element.

I have not yet decided on what the board looks like. It is still rather sketchy. At first I was thinking that I would use a square grid, and multiple creatures could be placed on one square. Now I am thinking that I might only allow one creature per space, and I am thinking of having circular spaces that have lines connecting them. Some circles could have up to four connections, but others could only have one connection (creating choke points). The one thing I do know, is that there will be five types of spaces (corresponding to each of the classical elements). The type of spaces you control are important, because each creature can only be spawned on a space of its type. For example, a fire creature can only be spawned if you own a fire space. Because of this limitation, area control will be really important in the game because you can prevent your opponent from spawning units in certain areas by taking control of spaces.

Your navy idea was a great idea; however, it wouldn't work for my game since it is based in a pre-technology world. I'm thinking that I'll just increase the range of attacks. However, I'm open to more suggestions based on the description of the game I just gave you.

Ratmilk
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Very helpful

Your response is really helpful. Here is my suggestion. I'd make your map an area control map and make each area have it's own card. Each area should have one of the five elements on one side of a card and the name of the corresponding map space on the reverse. When a creature is conjured make the players flip the necessary element from one of the areas the player controls and pair it in combination with the reverse face with the location the creature is spawning into. This way ALL creatures are combinations of cards with more powerful creatures requiring multiple combinations of cards. A dragon for example might need earth, fire, air AND the card where the creature is spawned. Low level creatures require only two cards, one element and the location.

I would make this card combo/area control one of your central mechanics. Another addition Id like to throw out there is that every player do this simultaneously with the last location card facedown. Make the turn order match the level of complexity of the conjuring with the most powerful combos going last. Lower level creatures may be able because of turn order to grab key spaces interrupting or reducing the conjurings of the other players. This system does multiple things..

#1 It reduces pieces because card hands are what marks control.
#2 Makes the player debate between many low power creatures in many locations or powerful ones in smaller numbers of locations.
#3 Ties areas directly to available units.
#4 Makes turn order another controllable player decision while putting them in a tension inducing dilemma.
#5 Makes every space at risk because of variable turn order.
#6 Reduces complexity by centralizing your mechanics.
#7 Increases speed because of simultaneous actions, creates tension and hidden information.

All this being said your map can still be an island, simply make one of your creatures a low level sea creature. The coast will always be in danger and gives knocked out players a chance to re-invade.

gabrielcohn
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Chess

Just thought this was an obvious one, but look at Chess. Most attacks are non-adjacent, but pieces still have limited ranges (only diagonal, only orthogonal, etc.).

Ecarots
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I like the non adjacent

I like the non adjacent concept. In modern warfare it is called a slingshot, the logistics units are prepositioned then on the way to the attack the combat units pass through,refuel and launch directly into attack. This presupposes you have units mobile enough to do that kind of movement with out exhaustion.

larienna
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The question is do you want

The question is do you want choke points?

I think you just need to control how many connection there is to each space.

The more connection you have the harder it will be to isolate an area, the less connections you have, the easier you can isolate an area.

In my game fallen kingdoms, I opted for a 2-4 connections, but there was sea ports that extended connections for naval attacks. Here is a picture:

http://bgd.lariennalibrary.com/uploads/fallen_kingdoms/Main/Pictures/Pic...

So if you manage to keep and control the nb of connection, you can make sure players can isolate various areas of the board in their own way rather in the choke point locations you have chosen.

Toa Lewa
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Ratmilk wrote:I'd make your

Ratmilk wrote:
I'd make your map an area control map and make each area have it's own card. Each area should have one of the five elements on one side of a card and the name of the corresponding map space on the reverse. When a creature is conjured make the players flip the necessary element from one of the areas the player controls and pair it in combination with the reverse face with the location the creature is spawning into.

That is a pretty cool idea Ratmilk. I like it, but I don't think it's quite what I'm looking for. I would like spaces to be constantly threatened; however, I don't want every unit to be able to attack any space on the board.

Ratmilk wrote:
All this being said your map can still be an island, simply make one of your creatures a low level sea creature. The coast will always be in danger and gives knocked out players a chance to re-invade.

I really like this idea. Currently, my creatures really don't have any special abilities yet, and I like the idea of the water creatures being able to attack or spawn on any coastline space. The other elements are earth, fire, air, and aether. Could you think of any special abilities for them?

Toa Lewa
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Choke Points

larienna wrote:
The question is do you want choke points?

Well, I would like to have choke points. However, I don't want the choke points to be predefined. I am working on a modular board, and I am trying to figure out the best configuration to achieve this. Like Risk, I would like the board to have some places that are easy to defend and some places that are difficult to keep. The small places would be worth less and the large places would be more valuable. By the way, I like your board.

Ratmilk
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Toa Lewa wrote:Ratmilk

Toa Lewa wrote:
Ratmilk wrote:
I'd make your map an area control map and make each area have it's own card. Each area should have one of the five elements on one side of a card and the name of the corresponding map space on the reverse. When a creature is conjured make the players flip the necessary element from one of the areas the player controls and pair it in combination with the reverse face with the location the creature is spawning into.

That is a pretty cool idea Ratmilk. I like it, but I don't think it's quite what I'm looking for. I would like spaces to be constantly threatened; however, I don't want every unit to be able to attack any space on the board.

***I may not have explained well enough. The units would only be able to attack from the space they were conjured in, Not from anywhere. The player decision is to tap the elements from other areas to conjure the unit in an area they control. Element sides of the cards would be face up and the last card has it's location face showing. It would be a pre-programmed card combinations done simultaneously by all players.***

Ratmilk wrote:
All this being said your map can still be an island, simply make one of your creatures a low level sea creature. The coast will always be in danger and gives knocked out players a chance to re-invade.

I really like this idea. Currently, my creatures really don't have any special abilities yet, and I like the idea of the water creatures being able to attack or spawn on any coastline space. The other elements are earth, fire, air, and aether. Could you think of any special abilities for them?

***Make earth tough and able to tunnel into other earth spaces.

Make Fire do extra damage or area damage, maybe two neighboring attacks at the same time.

Make air able to fly to controlled spaces or evade attacks.

Make aether boost other attacks. Also medieval thought Aether was supposed to change destiny, Re-rolls?***

Toa Lewa
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Quote:***I may not have

Quote:
***I may not have explained well enough. The units would only be able to attack from the space they were conjured in, Not from anywhere. The player decision is to tap the elements from other areas to conjure the unit in an area they control. Element sides of the cards would be face up and the last card has it's location face showing. It would be a pre-programmed card combinations done simultaneously by all players.***

I'm sorry, but I don't think I get it. So players are receiving cards from areas that they don't control? Currently, I have it where creatures can draw energy from the spaces they are located on. Later, this energy can be used to place units.

Quote:
***Make earth tough and able to tunnel into other earth spaces.

Make Fire do extra damage or area damage, maybe two neighboring attacks at the same time.

Make air able to fly to controlled spaces or evade attacks.

Make aether boost other attacks. Also medieval thought Aether was supposed to change destiny, Re-rolls?***

I love these ideas! I may change them a little bit, but I think you are right on target!

larienna
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Take a look at this

Take a look at this page:

http://bgd.lariennalibrary.com/games/fallen_kingdoms/index.php?n=History...

It is the historical evolution of the fallen kingdoms map.

One of the reason the fist map model were rejected is because they had choke points on the edge of the board tile. But that could be what you want.

In the end, you are going to end up with an island based map. You could have various "walls" or connections of a specific color forcing players to have a certain type of units to cross.

For example, water or sea connection needs to be crossed by sea units. Mountains connection or walls, need to be crossed by air unit.

With this method, you defenses are not impenetrable, if a player focus only one the choke point, then you use a air or sea unit to attack the open area.

This could create a nice dynamic while beign thematically accurate.

Ratmilk
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Players would be receiving

Hope this is more clear. Yes, players would be receiving cards from territories they control. They would tap several to conjure in an area they also control. The cards would be double-sided with the elements on one side and the map location on the other. Here is an example of how conjuring might work.The Capitol letters represent the card face that would be face up, the place names are just ones I've made up on the fly.

FIRE/Ashlands + EARTH/Stonespire + DARKFOREST/earth
= Fire elemental
--------------------------------------------------------------------
WATER/Mirelake + EARTH/Grenvalley + SHATTERED PLAINS/Earth
= Lizardmen
--------------------------------------------------------------------
AETHER/Fell Ruins + DIRESWAMP/Water
= Wraiths

So the above combinations would conjure a fire elemental in the Darkforest, Lizardmen in the shattered plains and wraiths in Direswamp. It requires the player to have 8 territories under his control.

Now, I'd also suggest all players get some starter cards representing elements from the sea that cannot be taken away, say Water, Air and Aether. This gives them the ability to always have some option to conjure and a coastline to threaten. Make those conjured sea creatures be able to attack from anywhere in the ocean and you are one step closer to all areas being under threat.

Toa Lewa
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Board

I think I will draw inspiration from this game when I design the board. I like the look of this board. However, it has too much water on it. There will much more land in my game. Though I might have a river or two. Also, the spaces will be circles instead of squares, and each circle will have one to four connections coming from it.

Http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-EpMjDrut4x8/Up9NunMirDI/AAAAAAAAOdY/w2GoqxIDCd...

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