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Armor Mechanics in turn-based rpg combat

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Jarec
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What I meant with that table,

What I meant with that table, is that whenever one rolls to hit, he consults the armor table to see how many wounds he has inflicted with the amount of passed hit rolls. He needs to score more hits against heavier armors.

devaloki
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So I guess the number of dice

So I guess the number of dice rolled in your example would be equal to the stat of the weapon and the table would be a comparison between strength of the weapon vs strength of armour?

The mechanic I am working involves one with standard armor damage reduction but each armour has a table they roll on (2d6, with 6 results possible) that you use to determine your armour points. So basically instead of either a saving or a static value ap, it's variable and each armour can have its own unique curve.

devaloki
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Hey all, I found a post

Hey all,
I found a post online that I found quite helpful with things, they discuss the basic armor mechanics found in games, of which there are mainly 4:
http://www.advanceddungeonsandparenting.com/2011/04/is-for-armor-simulat...
Just thought I'd update this post with it

X3M
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I find that article

I find that article incomplete. Unless you only look at D&D type of games.
There are many more ways of armor to be applied in games (especially computer games).
It's applying a basic formula. Or combinations of these formula's.
I could gather quite a lot of examples.

***

Try to put your mechanic in (a) formula(s).
And there is use of table's. Post them too.
1 complete summarized story.

With 2D6, you know the chances shift, right?
You say that there are 6 options. I am curious what you have now.

(The only random that I apply these days is hit chance)

devaloki
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X3M,Yeah you're right it is

X3M,

Yeah you're right it is incomplete but it does break down at least some of the basic structures for amour out there.

"With 2D6, you know the chances shift, right?"
I'm not sure what you mean by using the term "shift" there.

I have been focusing on other parts of my game recently, but here is a basic rough skeleton of combat in my game:

Battle is initiated by either one player with their allies and/or other players co-oping with them. Turn order is based upon Ranged, Reach, and lastly Speed.
Range can vary between 1-3, this shows how many shots that ranged weapon can make before melee starts. After Ranged take their shots it then moves into melee. First round of melee order is based upon Reach of weapons, highest Reach hits first. If there is a tie highest Speed goes first. After first round of combat turn order thereafter is solely based upon Speed of weapons. Any ties of Speed go to highest Agility stat, any remaining ties simply by a d6 roll.
You roll to hit, roll to see if any defensive maneuvers are taken by AI if they are randomized, then if hit is successful you roll for damage and opponent rolls for armor value.
I'm working on the "to hit" system but the basic idea is it's based on a comparison between either a Weapon Skill or Dexterity stat (Dexterity would be based upon Agility Stat or vice versa). Once you figure out the target number by comparing the two you have to roll equal to or higher than that on 2d6 to hit. Shields and defensive actions can impact the to hit roll, but i'm still working on that.
any 6s rolled on each individual dice is a critical hit. What critical hits do is based upon the rules for the individual weapon you use, most weapons do "penetrating" hits in some fashion though.
If you hit you roll for damage and opponent rolls for armor. Each rolls the dice and compares it to their equipment's chart. So for instance a sword could read (and some weapons can cause multiple damage types):

Sword | 1-2 |3-4| 5-6| 7-8| 9-10|11-12
Edged | 2 | 3 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 5
Magic | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0
Elemental| 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0

Leather Armor | 1-2 |3-4| 5-6| 7-8| 9-10|11-12
Physical | 0 | 1 | 2 | 2 | 2 | 4
Magic | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 2
Elemental| 0 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 2

There may also be modifiers to whatever you result(s) is (from things like strength bonus etc), but after both have rolled you deduct armor result from weapon result(s) to get total damage.
I notice though in most games that use armor deduction there is a random d6 (or other dice) to determine base damage so I'll have to work on the exact number range. But basically what I definitely want to keep is armor that is randomized to a bit with regard to its efficiency. I don't like how strong static defense values can be in games that use armor reduction as a mechanic.

X3M
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Actually, what I meant with

Actually, what I meant with shift (sorry for my incomplete vocabulary), was the different chance distribution amongst what a player could roll.

For 2d6:

Chances to roll a ##
2 or 12 is 1 out of 36
3 or 11 is 2 out of 36
4 or 10 is 3 out of 36
5 or 9 is 4 out of 36
6 or 8 is 5 out of 36
7 is 6 out of 36

Chances to roll a ## or lower
2 is 1 out of 36
3 is 3 out of 36
4 is 6 out of 36
5 is 10 out of 36
6 is 15 out of 36
7 is 21 out of 36
8 is 26 out of 36
9 is 30 out of 36
10 is 33 out of 36
11 is 35 out of 36
12 is 36 out of 36 (100% certainty)

The chances are not adding up linear or are constant like with just 1d6.
You could even create a:
Chances to roll between ## and ## are, or
Chances to roll ## to ## are...
for 2d6

2d6 is easy, but I once calculated the basic chances for 3d6 and higher.
Other dices can be calculated as well.

Personally I see these chances as score points. For a well balanced game, you could use a formula where these score points take part in. Together with other statistics.

***

Leather Armor | 1-2 |3-4| 5-6| 7-8| 9-10|11-12

That "1" in the front. How do you roll that if you add up the dice? If it is meant to be, than I am obviously missing something.

devaloki
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Are you suggesting I may be

Are you suggesting I may be better with using a 3d6 system? Either way, I'm only using d6s for the game.
And I understand about the probability stuff with 2d6. I'm avoiding having +1 to dice results that common in the game, I'm instead using a bonus dice type of system where you get to roll whatever extra and choose the highest of the ones you rolled.

"Personally I see these chances as score points. For a well balanced game, you could use a formula where these score points take part in. Together with other statistics."

Could you explain what you mean by that more?

"Leather Armor | 1-2 |3-4| 5-6| 7-8| 9-10|11-12

That "1" in the front. How do you roll that if you add up the dice? If it is meant to be, than I am obviously missing something."
They're not "1s" they are simply lines, it was suppose to be a makeshift table. So you roll the dice and consult the table to see what your damage/armor result was.

X3M
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No, I am not suggesting to

No, I am not suggesting to use 3d6. Sorry about that.
2d6 is fine. All you need to know is that a roll gives different results. Meaning that rolling a 2 has a lower chance than rolling a 7.

You do add up the dice, right? So throwing a 3 and a 4 is 7. If not, the rest of this post seems to be meaningless.

What I mean by score points is that each roll has it's own score in the total picture.
When you roll anything, that chance is 36 out of 36.
When you roll a 4, you could roll 1+3, 2+2, 3+1. That chance is 3 out of 36.

A lower chance in hitting means that a weapon is worth less. The same goes for armor as well. A lower chance in blocking means that a armor is worth less.

So if an armor needs to roll anything to block 1 damage. Than that armor is worth 1 x 36 = 36 points.

But if an armor needs to roll a 4 to block 12 damage.
Than that armor is worth 12 x 3 = 36 points.

Both armor are equal, their score is equal. But one has a low chance and high blocking while the other vice versa. With this calculation you can see that the armor effects will be statistically equal after 36 throws. And so are the damage effects with 12 damage or higher.

In my games, I use 1d6. When a unit has an accuracy of 4. The chance of the weapon hitting is 4/6th. Now if a 100% weapon has 300 score points, it would only be 200 after applying the chance.

***

But you are using 2d6 and a table, which is fine and you still can work with it:

These are the scores for each throw:

any Armor....| 1-2 |3-4| 5-6| 7-8| 9-10|11-12|
Score points | 0-1 |2-3| 4-5| 6-5| 4- 3| 2- 1|

Now then, if you apply how much they block, you would be posting something like this in your manual, right?:

Leather Armor | 1-2 |3-4| 5-6| 7-8| 9-10|11-12|
Damage reduct.| 0-4 |3-3| 2-1| 0-0| 0- 0| 0- 0|

When looking at the score points. We can decide how much that leather armor is worth compared to other armors.

---> I am going to play now with the numbers. You might find it weird. But this is how I usually test some games in RTS land. ;)
If you want to, I can do these calculations on the true values that you apply.
But other than that, you might ignore these.

From this point onwards only calculations.

---------

Leather armor:
Damage reduct.| 0-4 |3-3| 2-1| 0-0| 0- 0| 0- 0|
Score..points | 0-1 |2-3| 4-5| 6-5| 4- 3| 2- 1|
Total..points | 0-4 |6-9| 8-5| 0-0| 0- 0| 0- 0|

Adding these up gives 4+6+9+8+5 = 32.

Now, if the damage that another player does was only 3. You can also calculate the worth of the leather armor against that damage. After all, the maximum reduction is now 3.

Leather armor against 3 damage:
Damage reduct.| 0-3 |3-3| 2-1| 0-0| 0- 0| 0- 0|
Score..points | 0-1 |2-3| 4-5| 6-5| 4- 3| 2- 1|
Total..points | 0-3 |6-9| 8-5| 0-0| 0- 0| 0- 0|

Well, that gives a total of 31.

That is still very effective against leather armor. And instinctively it tells me already that leather armor was not meant to be used against damage 4. Since there is only 1 four in the table. The chance on completely removing the 4 damage is only 1 out of 36. While removing 3 damage completely is (1+2+3=) 6 out of 36.

Leather armor against 2 damage, we get:
Damage reduct.| 0-2 |2-2| 2-1| 0-0| 0- 0| 0- 0|
Score..points | 0-1 |2-3| 4-5| 6-5| 4- 3| 2- 1|
Total..points | 0-2 |4-6| 8-5| 0-0| 0- 0| 0- 0|

A total of 25. Now you can see that the leather armor is actually less effective against 2 damage.

For 1 damage we have only 15 points.
For 4 damage or higher we have 32 points.
Just where the 32 is found, in this case 31. There is an optimum.

---------

Now the same for Chain Armor

Chain Armor...| 1-2 | 3- 4| 5- 6| 7- 8| 9-10|11-12|
Damage reduct.| 0-6 | 5- 5| 4- 3| 2- 2| 1- 0| 0- 0|
Score..points | 0-1 | 2- 3| 4- 5| 6- 5| 4- 3| 2- 1|
Total..points | 0-6 |10-15|16-15|12-10| 4- 0| 0- 0|

Thus against 6 damage or higher. We have a total score of:
88.
Even though the damage is only 50% higher (factor 1,5 to that of leather) that can be reduced at tops.
The score tells us this armor is 175% better. (Factor 2,75 to that of leather)

Score against # damage:
1 gives 30 points. Factor 2 compared to leather.
2 gives 56 points. That is factor 2,24.
3 gives 71 points. That is factor 2,29.
4 gives 81 points. Factor 2,53.
5 gives 87 points. Factor 2,72.

Now to balance how much leather armors and chain armors there should be in the game. Since there is no "infinity" in number of units, you can do this.

Normally you also give score points to the weapons. And to balance you need to do matrix calculations.

But if we say, we only have weapons of:
6 times 1,
3 times 2,
2 times 3 and
1 times 6.

Then we get a score for leather armor of:
6 x 15 + 3 x 25 + 2 x 31 + 1 x 32 = 259.
And for chain armor we get:
6 x 30 + 3 x 56 + 2 x 71 + 1 x 88 = 578.

A factor 2,23 between these two.

Thus for every chain armor, you could put in 2,23 leather armor. A well balanced army with a good player has this distribution of armor when the distribution of weapons is fixed like above. So 9 leather and 4 chain in an army of 13.

If you only have 2 weapons:
2 times 2 and
1 times 4

We get
2 x 25 + 1 x 32 = 107
2 x 56 + 1 x 81 = 193

A factor 1,8 between these two.
That feels completely different now.
In that same army of 13, the most optimum would be 8 leather and 5 chain.

devaloki
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That's quite a hefty reply

That's quite a hefty reply X3M and a slightly confusing one with the way you stated things...nonetheless thanks for your thoughts.

"any Armor....| 1-2 |3-4| 5-6| 7-8| 9-10|11-12|
Score points | 0-1 |2-3| 4-5| 6-5| 4- 3| 2- 1|"
I have looked at probability tables for 2d6 before online and yes my system (for combat) would involve rolling 2d6 and adding the results together to get the final result number you use for things that use the tables that I mentioned.

"Leather armor against 2 damage, we get:
Damage reduct.| 0-2 |2-2| 2-1| 0-0| 0- 0| 0- 0|
Score..points | 0-1 |2-3| 4-5| 6-5| 4- 3| 2- 1|
Total..points | 0-2 |4-6| 8-5| 0-0| 0- 0| 0- 0|"
I'm not sure what this is supposed to show. By "score" I assume you are showing the probability of a certain result coming up. I'm not sure at all what you mean by "total". A key point I want to make concerning the tables used for this is that a higher roll is always a better result. I posted a rough draft sample of some charts in the previous post of mine on this thread. The higher you roll for armor save, the higher the damage reduction it does. The "1-2, 3-4" etc. in my tables are meant to be a crossreference. So say if you rolled a 3 or 4 on 2d6 both of those number totals would give the same amount of damage reduction that that piece of gear supplies (or dmg it deals if it's a weapon).

"Now the same for Chain Armor

Chain Armor...| 1-2 | 3- 4| 5- 6| 7- 8| 9-10|11-12|
Damage reduct.| 0-6 | 5- 5| 4- 3| 2- 2| 1- 0| 0- 0|"
Again, I think you misunderstood how this system works. If you roll a total of 12, it's not going to give you only a 0 damage reduction; if you roll a 12, it's going to give you the highest amount possible damage reduction for that piece of gear.

Also keep in mind the game's scale is that of a few individuals versus a few monsters at a time, it's not about armies fighting against each other or massive warfare. Picture a turn based version of "Wrath of Ashardalon" with video game rpg/tabletop rpg influences and it does not use a grid for ranged.

X3M
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Well, I only implied these

Well, I only implied these where examples.
And math is sometimes hard to get across.
Especially when we start calculating with chances (,combinations and permutations).

I will await your complete game.

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