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Dice order - Important or not?

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Mon, 04/22/2013 - 22:58
questccg
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Hi all,

In my game I am using from one (1) to five (5) dice for combat. Each dice is a different color: Green, Blue, Red, White and Black. (Yes I am aware the colors are identical to M:tG. My game is very different).

For combat, the dice order is NOT important.

BUT for Effect cards such as +2 Green or +1 White, etc. IT IS VERY IMPORTANT.

So my question is, should I ENFORCE a dice ORDER?

For example: Green, Blue, Red, White and Black.

If the unit/follower (think Creature in M:tG) has a Power (1 to 5). By enforcing an ORDER, a Power=2 follower would use a *Green and Blue* dice.

A Power=4 follower would use *Green, Blue, Red and White* dice.

So an effect card could have *+1 Green and +2 White* and this could correspond to Dice #1 and Dice #4.

ALTERNATIVELY I could let the player decide which dice he wants to throw (Based on his cards). So taking the example above:

A Power=2 follower COULD use *Green and White* and then use the effect card *+1 Green and +2 White*.

Anyhow I would like some thoughts on this. Which way do you think is better: enforcing a dice order or let the player choose the dice order...

Please feel free to discuss the advantages and disadvantages...

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Tue, 04/23/2013 - 03:52
#1
Procylon
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Without knowing more about

Without knowing more about your game, I think using an order would add needless complication, while not using an order seems like it would give your players more choice and customization.

But that depends on any other systems that depend on dice color or the addition of an order system to your dice.

What is the purpose for the colors other than effects? Theme, mechanical, etc.

Do you have any reason why you would want to limit an effect to power 4 creatures but not power 2 creatures? Could you gain this effect simply by saying only Power X creature is affected instead of adding in another system?

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Tue, 04/23/2013 - 14:57
#2
questccg
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Colors for Theme and Mechanic

Procylon wrote:
What is the purpose for the colors other than effects? Theme, mechanical, etc.

Colors are both for theme (For example: Green followers are Earth creatures such a Elves, Dryads, etc.) and mechanical (Colors are used in a RPS-5 for combat: so Green beat Blue, Blue beats Red, etc.) For the mechanical side, what happens is there are BONUSES or PENALTIES given to the attacking party depending on the color of his opponent. This makes it either easier or harder to battle against an opponent (odds can vary from 75% for an attack to 25% on the penalty side). When defending the odds are ALWAYS 50:50.

Procylon wrote:
Do you have any reason why you would want to limit an effect to power 4 creatures but not power 2 creatures? Could you gain this effect simply by saying only Power X creature is affected instead of adding in another system?

It would be possible to limit an effect to a certain Power level (like 3 or higher, or just 3). Not sure why you would want to do this... It is never the less possible...

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Tue, 04/23/2013 - 15:41
#3
kpres
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Do all creatures have access

Do all creatures have access to the same types of dice? Do dice represent elemental powers? Is there a hierarchy of powers?

If you want to impose a hierarchy of powers, then it seems fitting that dice order matters; otherwise, it may be a needless complication. Don't throw away that idea, though, because it may end up being the simplest solution to your problem.

Perhaps a Power 1 creature should only have access to one elemental power, but you can pay more to roll the die multiple times, or something. OR, a Power 5 creature could be very specialized, yet have access to only one power, while a Power 1 creature is not specialized and has access to all of the powers.

One thing that I have found fun is to always attach drawbacks to powerful abilities. This gives players harder choices to make, which makes the game more fun. So, your creatures may have a power level from 1 to 5, and 5 is still 5x more powerful than 1, but sometimes a very consistent, reliable Power 1 creature may be preferable to the Power 5 creature that could turn on you. Yes, it'll beat anything your opponents can send your way, but it's risky.

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Tue, 04/23/2013 - 21:19
#4
questccg
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More clarification

kpres wrote:
Do all creatures have access to the same types of dice? Do dice represent elemental powers? Is there a hierarchy of powers?

Power varies from 1 to 5. It also determines what attacks a follower has.

Let's take an example: A level 1 Unicorn
-Power 1
-Good (Alignment)
-Sun/White (element/color)
-Attacks:
[1] Steel hoofs = 1d12
[2] Charge! = 2d12
-Passive ability: Upon death, restores your HP to 20.

So the only thing that needs to be explained are Power and Attacks. Power is the strength of a follower. In this case the follower is very weak and only has ONE life point (can die after only one battle). It's a HORSE with a HORN... It's not that powerful...

Now each d12 (there are 5 of them: Green, Blue, Red, White and Black) represents a color/element. But currently there is NO ORDER.

The player, when attacking, may pay 1 Sun/White Mana Point (MP) to attack with *Steel hoofs* or pay 2 Sun/White Mana Points (MPs) to *Charge!* Only on an attack the player has a choice (also provided he has enough Mana). What it means is quite IMPORTANT:
-1 MP = 1d12 => That means ONLY one dice. This is weak again and easily beatable.
-2 MPs = 2d12 => This is slightly better because it implies 2 dice. Still weak but better than 1.

kpres wrote:
If you want to impose a hierarchy of powers, then it seems fitting that dice order matters; otherwise, it may be a needless complication. Don't throw away that idea, though, because it may end up being the simplest solution to your problem.

Not sure what to say here...

kpres wrote:
Perhaps a Power 1 creature should only have access to one elemental power, but you can pay more to roll the die multiple times, or something. OR, a Power 5 creature could be very specialized, yet have access to only one power, while a Power 1 creature is not specialized and has access to all of the powers.

A Power 5 creature has a basic attack of 3 and a powerful attack of 5. BUT you need to have 5 Mana Points (MPs) to use it. And remember that Mana uses 5x d6s (so values 1 to 6). Having that much mana at your disposal is not always a given!

Let's look at a level 5 follower: Green Dragon.
-Power 5
-Evil
-Earth/Green
-Attacks:
[3] Dragon claws = 3d12 (+2)
[5] Poisonous breath = 5d12

So on ATTACK, a player can PAY 5 Green Mana Points (MPs) and then attack an opponent using his most powerful breath attack (which gives 5 dice). On defense, a dragon can use only his claws... (only 3 dice PLUS a bonus of +2 points that may distributed as a player desires AFTER he rolls.)

kpres wrote:
One thing that I have found fun is to always attach drawbacks to powerful abilities. This gives players harder choices to make, which makes the game more fun. So, your creatures may have a power level from 1 to 5, and 5 is still 5x more powerful than 1, but sometimes a very consistent, reliable Power 1 creature may be preferable to the Power 5 creature that could turn on you. Yes, it'll beat anything your opponents can send your way, but it's risky.

Well you can see the MOST powerful attacks can only be performed on the OFFENSIVE. BUT they COST a lot of Mana Points (MPs). As mentioned earlier, you can ONLY get a maximum of 6 Green Mana Points (MPs) PER TURN. To pull off a level 5 attack means you had a HIGH roll and you have done nothing with the Mana (Move or Conjure). Basically you invest everything into making this an ATTACK TURN ONLY.

So there is a HUGE amount of strategy in this game. You want to protect that Power 5 creature and use it to attack... But you also want to protect it from being attacked... You need to manage Mana Points (MPs) to determine what actions you are going to take on each turn. You may not always get the rolls you want (and therefore not have the power to attack at full strength).

This game is a little bit different in that the MOST powerful creature/unit have an advantage - but no guarantees. BUT because a *Green Dragon* has Power 5, it can survive 4 battles before it dies (as losses)... So the odds are that your dragon may stick around to use its breath attack on a couple turns before it dies...

And I did not even EXPLAIN the RPS-5 and how it affects combat! That is yet another layer of strategy... Message #2 in this thread explains the RPS-5 (a little bit - but not in complete details).

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Tue, 04/23/2013 - 23:43
#5
questccg
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Adding restrictions

Procylon wrote:
Do you have any reason why you would want to limit an effect to power 4 creatures but not power 2 creatures? Could you gain this effect simply by saying only Power X creature is affected instead of adding in another system?

Well thinking about this a little bit more, it would be possible to have a *Instant* card that give a follower +1d12 (an extra dice). This is a big benefit but only good for one battle. A restriction could be that only follower with a Power of 2 or 1 can use that Instant card.

Since level 3 is the average that even higher follower have as a *basic attack*. Basic attack is the default attack used to counter an enemy attack. Since players who defend have NO MANA, they cannot be expected to roll mana dice when it is not their turn...

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Wed, 04/24/2013 - 01:01
#6
kpres
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I misinterpreted the meaning

I misinterpreted the meaning of the use of mana dice before. I see now. Your game is pretty interesting. So, here's how I understand the role of dice in your game:

You have 5 differently-coloured six-sided dice available to you on your turn; OR you have 5 available colours of mana dice, and throughout the game you gain more of them, allowing you to specialize in a particular colour. Either way, you have some stock of dice available to you to use on your turn, and they have different colours to represent different elements of mana.

Dice represent an unknown quantity of mana that you have available to you. You determine the quantity of mana when you decide to use the ability. Say you choose to attack with the unicorn's second ability. You would roll a white die and hope to roll a 2 or better. If you rolled a 1, then you don't have enough mana and so the attack fails. Also, your die is spent, so you can't use it again for the turn. However, you have your other dice available, so you can still attack with other creatures or use other abilities.

Please tell me if this is right.

Now, your question is about whether or not there should be an order in which dice are allowed to be used because effect cards can modify the outcomes of the rolls after they have happened. With that understanding, I think that you should let the players decide for themselves the order. If you make an effect card in which order matters, then let it refer to "the last die thrown" or "the first die" or something. Advantages: deeper strategy, more customizability, etc. It's also simpler because there's one less rule to remember right at the start of the game.

You sound like you've got a pretty cool game under development. Lots of risk-taking and fantasy flavour. I think that by keeping it simple, you'll end up with a game that is better understood and has much deeper strategy.

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Wed, 04/24/2013 - 18:50
#7
questccg
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Mana dice (d6s) vs. Battle dice (d12s)

kpres wrote:
I misinterpreted the meaning of the use of mana dice before. I see now. Your game is pretty interesting. So, here's how I understand the role of dice in your game:

You have 5 differently-coloured six-sided dice available to you on your turn; OR you have 5 available colours of mana dice, and throughout the game you gain more of them, allowing you to specialize in a particular colour. Either way, you have some stock of dice available to you to use on your turn, and they have different colours to represent different elements of mana.

Dice represent an unknown quantity of mana that you have available to you. You determine the quantity of mana when you decide to use the ability. Say you choose to attack with the unicorn's second ability. You would roll a white die and hope to roll a 2 or better. If you rolled a 1, then you don't have enough mana and so the attack fails. Also, your die is spent, so you can't use it again for the turn. However, you have your other dice available, so you can still attack with other creatures or use other abilities.

Please tell me if this is right.

Almost. If you roll a 1, you can probably only attack with a Power 1 follower. And all 5 color dice (5x d6) are available to you from the very start until the very end... There is no leveling mechanic. For battles you use another 5 color dice (5x d12).

You ROLL FIRST (5x d6s) on your turn (that is the first thing you do). From there on you try figure out the best course of action (like conjuring more followers, making it a movement turn or a battle only turn, etc.) Then you use your dice until they get depleted (removed because they are 0). Each action you take costs you Mana Points (MPs) which are the totality of your 5x d6s... So for the d6s there are restrictions: if you attack with a Green/Earth follower, you will use points from your Green d6 dice.

kpres wrote:
Now, your question is about whether or not there should be an order in which dice are allowed to be used because effect cards can modify the outcomes of the rolls after they have happened. With that understanding, I think that you should let the players decide for themselves the order. If you make an effect card in which order matters, then let it refer to "the last die thrown" or "the first die" or something. Advantages: deeper strategy, more customizability, etc. It's also simpler because there's one less rule to remember right at the start of the game.

You sound like you've got a pretty cool game under development. Lots of risk-taking and fantasy flavour. I think that by keeping it simple, you'll end up with a game that is better understood and has much deeper strategy.

If there was an order it would be something like: Green, Blue, Red, White and Black. Green first because this is a First Edition of the game and it is the Green/Earth Edition. Currently there is no ORDER in the d12 Combat dice.

Now if there WAS an order... It would make it that players would throw dice according to the order. This would make it that effect cards such as +1 White/+1 Black would only profit a Power 5 creature since Black would be the last dice.

If I do not enforce an order, well a Power 2 follower could use the +1 White/+1 Black effect card by simply choosing to roll those 2 dice...

So I am still on the fence (figuratively). I'm not sure which is the best option...

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Wed, 04/24/2013 - 21:15
#8
questccg
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Positive vs. Negative effect

One of the advantages of allowing player's to use the combat dice (5x d12s) in any order they choose is that it opens up the possibility for *Negative* effects...

For example: The Black cards are about death (or the loss of life). So an effect card could be *Target player loses his Black dice*. In the case where the player was hoping to have 2 dice, all of a sudden is stuck with only 1!

I was thinking in *general terms* and said one type of effect could be *lose a dice*. But it would be more logical to say *lose the X dice*... where X is a specific "color/element". It is a specification of the general *lose a dice* effect. BUT when it comes to theme - it makes sense that Black would be the dice to lose... because of the undertones of death...

Also even if an order is NOT EXPLICIT, it may still be IMPLICIT such as in the example above.

This is just some *thinking aloud* (or typed)... I am still working on establishing a "feel" for combat and effect cards.

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Thu, 04/25/2013 - 00:05
#9
kpres
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You could try a "phase",

You could try a "phase", where both players choose an effect card that they want to use, and then reveal it at the same time. If a player doesn't want to use a card, then you could make a blank card that says "No effect. Return this to your hand." That way, players can bluff, and bluffing is fun.

If it's too complicated to have effects happening at the same time, then you could impose a priority, such as the active player gets to play the first effect card (or the last card).

After you playtest each different thing, you can figure out for sure which is best.

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Wed, 05/01/2013 - 00:20
#10
questccg
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50:50 odds

kpres wrote:
If it's too complicated to have effects happening at the same time, then you could impose a priority, such as the active player gets to play the first effect card (or the last card).

Well here is the thing: the deck is comprised of 60 cards.
-30 followers you can conjure
-->10 Green
-->5 of the other colors (total of 20)
-30 effect cards
-->10 relics (You can have at most 3 in play at any given time)
-->10 Enchantments (Costs MPs to put in play)
-->10 Instants (May be played at any time)

So I think players will be very selective when playing cards... The odds are 50:50 to get a follower (which is reasonable). There are not too many cards so I don't think it will be complicated to have multiple effect cards played at/near the same time.

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