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Fantasy Innkeeper: How to attract the heroes?

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hotsoup
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So I'm still working on my Fantasy Innkeeper game, and I need some help figuring out how to attract heroes into your tavern. Each player has a tavern (probably on a player tableau, which you can add tile-rooms to, much like Agricola). A random assortment of Fighters, Rogues, Wizards and Bards enters the town every night, and you need to attract them to your establishment.

Here's my two ideas so far.

Idea #1: Each hero type desires a different kind of drink. Fighters want mead, Rogues want ale, Wizards want cider, and Bards want wine. If players were competing over a group of fighters, they would all bid X amount of mead, and the player who bid the most would get all the fighters.

How to produce these drinks? Players could buy rooms for their inn that would produce different drinks. I was thinking that there are small, medium, large, and extra large production rooms available for each drink type. Players could not have more than one room that produces the same type of drink, and they could only have 1 small, 1 medium, 1 large, and 1 extra large production room. This would force players to specialize in different kinds of drinks, and then be forced to trade with each other. This might end up being too complicated, though. I'm open to other methods of drink production.

Idea #2: It might be more interesting to have each hero type be attracted in a completely different way. Fighters, for example, are a thirsty lot, so you would attract them by offering them mead, as in idea #1. Wizards are a snobby, elitist type, so you could attract them by reserving rooms and dormitories exclusively for their use. Bards want an audience more than anything, so players could compete for them by bidding a number of heroes already in their inn who will not be able to do any of their normal abilities this turn, since they will just be listening to the Bard's epic songs. I haven't figured out what Rogues would want. Gambling maybe? I'm not sure how to implement that.

Any suggestions, modifications, or entirely new ideas?

deFunkt29
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I've thought about your idea

I've thought about your idea a bit lately, it's really cool by the way, and another classic reason why heroes go to inns is to get quests or hear about the surrounding area, so perhaps that could be of some sort of attraction as well. I like the idea of certain rooms attracting certain heroes though, like libraries for wizards or a stage for bards. Perhaps each inn could have a base stat for attracting all heroes, and then get bonuses to hiring certain heroes based off of other things they have?

Best of luck

hotsoup
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That's a good idea. Maybe

That's a good idea. Maybe gambling tables for Rogues and Mead Halls for Fighters? That would make sense, and be very thematic. However, I really do want some kind of competition between the players, such that who will attract the heroes will be up in the air until the last minute. I don't want it to be such that if one player has built a huge library, he just gets the Wizards every time. Maybe each player can hire staff, and then bid on the different heroes by bidding staff to the different rooms? Larger rooms would permit larger bids. A rogue would be more attracted to a gambling den full of adversaries, I'd assume.

And don't worry, quests will definitely enter into it. One of the main goals of the game is to accumulate enough Heroes in your tavern, that you can send them off on local quests. They give your tavern Victory Points if they succeed.

hotsoup
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Maybe you attract them by

Maybe you attract them by giving them discounts! My current plan was to have you gain, say, 3 gold per hero at your tavern every morning. If players were competing over getting a group of 4 wizards into their tavern, they would all start at 12 gold and bid DOWN. Whoever offered the lowest rates would get the group. Having some wizard libraries in your tavern would just increase your chances.

Corsaire
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Could your hires basically be

Could your hires basically be townies with specific attractions, maybe use a Small World style selection? Where the first in line is cheap but if you chose the back of the line you pay off the others.

Townies available to work this round:
Old Bertram the Sage
Billy Bard
Sassy the Server
One Eyed Jack
Gil the Guide

So some attract characters in different ways and others add bonuses for quests, others increase income, etc.

hotsoup
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That's an interesting notion.

That's an interesting notion. Originally the game was just going to use generic tokens or cubes for the hero travelers and staff, but using cards would add more variety. The only problem would be that you wouldn't be able to put them in different rooms, since they wouldn't fit.

Someone else made the suggestion that if I used cards for heroes, they could have unique desires on each one, and players would entice them in by catering to their needs.

Corsaire
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Generic is likely better, I

Generic is likely better, I hadn't much looked through your other posts. Art resource demands could get big with custom characters.

Aerjen
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Similar Games

First of all, I really like your game idea!

Are you familiar with some of the other fantasy inn games out there?

- The Red Dragon Inn (and expansions): http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/24310/the-red-dragon-inn
- Inn-Fighting: http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/29198/inn-fighting

I think your game idea sounds different enough, but you might want to check them out anyway to see what's already been done.

hotsoup
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I have heard of those games,

I have heard of those games, so I tried to fill a niche by having the players play the NPC tavern owners instead of heroes. Makes it more of an economic game.

Aerjen
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Fair enough

Fair enough, just wanted to make sure you were aware of them :)

senorbaub
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I like the direction this

I like the direction this design is going.

Perhaps a refinement to your auction mechanic is that for every room type (mead hall, stage, library, etc) you get so many bidding tokens. During a bidding round let's say 3 or 4 adventurer cards are laid out and each player gets to put down bidding tokens which correspond to the adventurer's wants/needs on the cards of adventurer(s) they want to attract. The player who placed the most tokens a particular adventurer card gets to keep that card. Perhaps at the end of the bidding round if you didn't win the bid you get your tokens back but if you did win you don't get them back until the adventurer leaves the inn.

laperen
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are you going to include

are you going to include things like gossip and quests aswell?

like paying heroes to get your supplies, bounty missions, or having a secret information transfer service, or being able to steer the general direction of the world around you from information you gather from the heroes and issuing quests which are more for moral right or greater good of the world

eg, you are running short on meat to provide your customers with meals, and the coming weather prevents transportation of supply across borders, do you pay some heroes giving a little more than what it would cost from supply, or wait the weather out?

eg, you eavesdrop on some chatter on a troll encampment spotted by travellers that risked a shortcut through the woods, it might imply a raid on a village, do you issue a "slay the trolls" quest or investigate further?

eg, you have vital information wanted by 2 rival groups, giving this information to either side will decide the outcome of their dispute and give various benefits and drawbacks in the economy and politics of the world, do you give the information to A/B side or investigate further?

StagCutlery
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Don't know how much you have written down...

This was all brainstomed on the drive to work and written down quickly before my shift started. Apologies for being disjointed and incoherent.

So the point of this game is to score the most VP by completing quests. You do that by sending patrons (using patrons because it's easier to type than Adventurers) on these quests. Game has two decks, Patrons and Room/Quest, plus something to represent gold coins.

A patron has these stats:
Lure Value - what he's enticed by (number, plus symbol: 2 Book). some patrons may have two symbols (3 Book/Cross); in this case, you can mix and match.
Skill - could be a number, could be 'lock-picking'; used to complete quests. Better skill would mean higher lure value
Income - the amount of Gold the patron pays you at the beginning of your turn. Better income might mean higher lure value
Refund Value - the amount of gold you must pay him to kick him out of your establishment. If this is to crunchy, just say you must pay twice their Income to kick them out.

Patrons (examples)
Paladins - like drink and crosses
Priests - like crosses
Barbarians - like muscle
Rogues - like crowds
Wizards - like books
Bards - like gold. Bards don't quest, but pay you income to perform, or instead they could be used as wildcards to Lure other patrons (think singing a song about someone to lure them in)

Rooms
Rooms provide currency to lure patrons; libraries provide books, churches provide crosses, etc. Some special rooms offer swaps: gladiatorial arena lets you trade drink for muscle on a 1:1 basis.

Quests:
Quests are worth victory points/glory. VPs vary based on the requirements. You can send as many patrons as you want to complete the quest, but after that, those patrons are discarded (perished/moved on). The balance here is to send an efficient number of patrons, so that you're not shooting yourself in the foot when it's time to collect income next turn.
Requirements could be skill based (needs "Strategy" and "Wisdom"), or value based (6 Swords/2 Holy), or to keep crunch down you could use their lure values as skill values.
If you wanted a more difficult variant, "Elite" patrons could have word skills (Leadership, Cunning, Engineering) and number values while normal patrons could just have a number value. Quests could require one word (Strategy) and a number (5 swords). the words could be ignored for a basic game.

The patrons form a queue as they walk into the town. Each turn you take the top card of the Patron Deck and add it to the end of the line. Each turn, the patrons move one space from the town entrance to the town exit and their Lure Value goes down by one to 0 (free) until they get moved off the queue. I picture town entrance to town exit is five steps. Assume average lure value is 4, so by the 4th and 5th step, the patron is free to acquire.

On your turn you must:
1) Discard/Draw Cards (this could also be the last thing you do instead)
2) Collect Income/Gold
3a)Build your Tavern/Remodel, or
3b) Lure the first patron in the queue, or
3c) Go on a quest

The decision here is to weigh how much benefit is that patron versus building up your tavern. Do you buy the patron, or let him go down in price so the next player gets him for cheap?

You hand is full of quests and tavern rooms. The rooms cost Gold to put into play. The quests have requirements to complete.

Each room has a name, but the currency values differ, so you can't play the same room twice on your tavern. Instead, you can remodel by dumping a lower value room for a higher value of the same name (swap a Mead Hall/3 drink for a Mead Hall/5 drink). You could have this cost gold, if you like. Each room also holds one patron (or more, if you want more crunch, rooms could have a capacity value). If you don't have enough space, you can boot a patron from your tavern by giving them a refund.

Game ends when X VP are reached; set target number or target number based on number of players.

That's all I got. I really like your idea and want to see what you do with it. Please keep me in the loop. :-)

StagCutlery
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Another thought

If you still want to keep a bidding system, you could do something similar to Small World.

At the start of the bidding round you have X number of adventurers to choose from, either a set number or something like one less than the number of players.

First Player gets first choice or pass. If he bids, he bids X coins. Anyone can outbid, but the winner gets the adventurer and the coins bid are placed on the remaining adventurers, making them more enticing. Once you collect an adventurer, you're out of the bidding round.

Parthon
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Just throwing a random idea

Just throwing a random idea out there, not sure if it would work.

If there was a reputation measurement for each 'type' of patron, Say Warriors, Mages, Rogues and Clerics. I'll use just the mages. So there would be a knowledge reputation that each innkeeper is trying to get/keep. Each turn, the tavern with the most books in their library, would move up the reputation track, and the person with the least books would move down. The benefit of a high reputation is that you would get first pick of all the Mage type heroes, including split-class heroes like Spellblades or Magethieves. I'm also thinking, that as you send your mages on quests, you would have to pay them some gold and some books, or just books as an upkeep each turn. Then collecting books would become a choice between getting mages and losing books, or keeping books to get reputation to get better mages.

Other ideas:
Certain patrons could require a minimum reputation to be hired.
Some quests would lower/raise your reputation. Some event cards too, if they exist. Maybe even some patrons.

I'm not sure if this would fit into your idea, but I like that it changes over time. That way it's not just instantly "I have all the books, so I get all the mages!", the player would have to hang onto those books for a while. The main idea is that it would reflect the wider reputation your inn gets among the population of the world.

czman
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Just a thought

Resource allocation idea.

My thought would be to have different stacks of money face down. The stacks would be shuffled and placed where everyone can reach them. Each turn you draw money from a stack and add it to your cash.

With your cash you can purchase rooms. As you purchase more rooms you are able to draw from larger and larger stacks of money.

You can have to sets of factors for drawing heros to the taverns.

Each hero can have a favorite type of room. Each hero can have a favorite type of food/activity/drink. The amount of rooms you have adds to your ability to get a hero. The amount of food/activity/drink you have adds to your ability to get a hero.

Example:
Wizards want Cider and a study.
Each study is worth 1 point. A wizard wants to have 5 points to go to your inn. Each Cider is worth 1 point.
Player 1 has 2 studies and 6 ciders.
Player 2 has 3 studies and 4 ciders.

They can both afford the Wizard. Each player wants to spend the appropriate Ciders to get the Wizard.

Determining who wins the Wizard. They each make a silent bid. They have to bid more than the minimum to win the Wizard. Since 5 is the minimum 6 is the minimum bid.

In case of tie the Wizard goes no where.

Player 1 knows they can win with a bid of 8 (2 studies and all 6 ciders).
Player 2 knows they cannot win unless they bid 7 and player 1 bids 6.
Player 1 knows the same thing. Player 1 can choose to bid 7 and force a tie or win. Player 1 can bid 6 and allow player 2 to spend all of their Ciders on this one wizard or force a tie.

Order of play:
Everyone take money from the stack. Spend money on rooms and food/drink/activity. Random heros are drawn into play. People who can afford heros spend/bid to get them.

If a only one person can afford a hero that person spends the min.

You can have heros cost more as the game goes on.

The silent bids can be accomplished with a paper with numbers on it and a counter that is placed on the bid number. Or each player can have a series of counters with numbers on them. Or dry ease boards. Or paper and pencil.

Modifications. You could have each room give a standard amount of money and have just one money pile to draw from for random money. You could have people roll for money and have rooms=more dice.

I am sure you can find lots of ways to modify this.

FishBasketGordo
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I was thinking something along these lines...

deFunkt29 wrote:
I've thought about your idea a bit lately, it's really cool by the way, and another classic reason why heroes go to inns is to get quests or hear about the surrounding area, so perhaps that could be of some sort of attraction as well. I like the idea of certain rooms attracting certain heroes though, like libraries for wizards or a stage for bards. Perhaps each inn could have a base stat for attracting all heroes, and then get bonuses to hiring certain heroes based off of other things they have?

Best of luck

I was thinking something along these lines. Perhaps offering a certain kind of quest could be more enticing for certain kinds of heroes: wizards would be more enticed by magical quests, bards by some sort of writing-based, etc.

StagCutlery
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If you're really tied to using tiles instead of cards

Your heroes could be square tiles with each corner having a number/symbol you need for your game (Cost/Worth/Power/Etc.) and your room tiles could have a grid on them marking off how many heroes can fit in each tile, if you're still working out having room capacity in your game.

questccg
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Not sure ... but

Usually in games with adventurers, one of the reason is that players go to a tavern to *learn about quests* in that part of the woods... So instead of selling ale, cider and such, you could perhaps MATCH heroes to quests.

Maybe there could be a *center area* in which something like 5 heroes are randomly chosen. Then players take turns in order and pick the hero of their choice, one that could match well with the cards in their hand.

A hand could be comprised of all kinds of items such a weapons, armor, magic potions, etc. As the owner of the tavern, your goal is to *SPONSOR* a hero and help him succeed in his quest. When a hero succeeds, the player receive a certain amount of reputation points.

I think this sounds more interesting than selling drinks. This is a general idea and of course would require more development...

StagCutlery
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Yet another sugestion

hotsoup wrote:
However, I really do want some kind of competition between the players, such that who will attract the heroes will be up in the air until the last minute.

questccg wrote:
Usually in games with adventurers, one of the reason is that players go to a tavern to *learn about quests* in that part of the woods... (snip) As the owner of the tavern, your goal is to *SPONSOR* a hero and help him succeed in his quest. When a hero succeeds, the player receive a certain amount of reputation points.

Quoted both of these because I think Quest's suggestion fits the OP's theme the best and offering to supply the heroes for a quest sounds more enticing than drinks.

Picture this:
A group of Adventurers enter town.
- Adventurers are either mercenaries, good for one quest, or heroes that stay with you (until they die) and award you VPs for completing quests. Alternatively, "mercenaries" are just heroes you hire for one quest to help out the heroes that stay at your tavern.
You entice heroes to stay at your tavern by showing them the wanted posters/job postings (quests) you have, plus an offer to outfit them if they quest for you.
- you bid for heroes by placing your quest face up. Quests will have a gold value (the 'reward'). All things being equal, the higher paying quest will win the bid, but to sweeten the pot if you're being outbid, you can throw in equipment to use on the quest, like weapons or armor. You could even bid the equipment face down so the other players don't know what you're throwing in.
The Hero(es) then go on the quest for you and return - hopefully victorious - and their reputation brings glory to your tavern. Regrettably, heroes being heroes, all the gear was used up/destroyed.
- You might want a random variable, like a die roll, to determine victory (the equipment raises your chances to success, even auto-succeeding if high enough). The heroes return to your tavern, but the equipment is discarded (maybe rare enchanted items return also). You gain VP based on the heroes.

As for money, the quest 'reward' could be a gold value you earn, possibly split with the heroes (they don't get any money; it's just a number you subtract from your winnings). You can then use this gold to buy more equipment.

Again, just a suggestion.

questccg
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Relevancy and good matching

StagCutlery wrote:
... you bid for heroes by placing your quest face up. Quests will have a gold value (the 'reward'). All things being equal, the higher paying quest will win the bid, but to sweeten the pot if you're being outbid, you can throw in equipment to use on the quest, like weapons or armor. You could even bid the equipment face down so the other players don't know what you're throwing in...

Bidding would be a real nice mechanic. And it does not have to be too complicated. For example you could have like 5 heroes to pick from, and how it works is a little like Stag suggested:

1-On your turn, you play a quest card for a specific Hero face up showing the value of the quest.
2-Next you can add a certain amount of equipment cards FACE DOWN. So nobody is 100% certain of the bid.

Each player makes his bid + the secret part and the player that wins the sponsorship will be the one with the BEST bid. Again I think you need a MATCHING mechanic.

For example: A *Fireball Scroll* is good for a Wizard and a *Battleaxe* is good for a Warrior.

Think up of classes of Heroes and the divide the equipment accordingly. The interesting part about this is that you don't necessarily get the BEST hero... You get the BEST FIT hero (MATCHING) because your bid is more RELEVANT. So some players will have the upper hand while bidding (because they have very relevant equipment cards for the hero).

Note: The reason I suggested 5 heroes is because it makes for a nice 4 player game. Since each player needs a hero, 5 gives the last player the choice between 2.

StagCutlery
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questccg wrote: Each player

questccg wrote:

Each player makes his bid + the secret part and the player that wins the sponsorship will be the one with the BEST bid. Again I think you need a MATCHING mechanic.

Matching during the bid I think only helps if you can back out of your bid because you think you're going to lose. Then, bluffing that you have matching gear would be very important. If you're going to show your hands after the bid anyway, there's no point bluffing non-matching gear.

I think non-matching gear should have a value during bidding, but gets discarded once you get the hero. Thematically, you liquidate the Fireball Scroll and apply the funds to luring the Warrior to your tavern.

questccg
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Thinking about how it plays out

StagCutlery wrote:
If you're going to show your hands after the bid anyway, there's no point bluffing non-matching gear.

I think non-matching gear should have a value during bidding, but gets discarded once you get the hero.

The problem with bluffing with NON matching gear is that players would ALWAYS exhaust their hand and play, for example, all 5 cards in their hand. This would tend to indicate that each player has 5 relevant cards which is probably an incorrect assumption. So you would need to be careful about allowing NON matching gear.

There could be SHARED gear which improves a bid also: it may be worth LESS than SPECIFIC gear.

For example: a *Healing Potion* can be used by ALL heroes.

Also in the resolving of Quests, I would use a Push-Your-Luck mechanic in which you can use the gear to move along FURTHER... If you try to earn too much gold, you may lose all of what you had accumulated on that particular turn. Giving equipment a DUAL role adds some complexity - but it also adds some depth to the game and definitely more strategy.

So the game could have two distinct phases:

1-A bidding phase to try to win the BEST hero with a quest and equipment
2-A push-your-luck phase to try to earn the most possible gold out of a quest

StagCutlery
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If you can only bid with

If you can only bid with matching gear, I think you run into the problem of not being able to fill out your party because you're deficient in a class' gear; it's not going to be much of a bidding war if you see I have just one face down card.

I think the balance with allowing unmatched gear is that it helps you win the bid at the cost of losing that item after the bid is won; if you bid three face down cards for a warrior we both want, I might consider burning my scroll of fire if I think the cost would put my bid over the top even if it means losing the chance to use it on a wizard next bid. I don't think people would toss in all their cards for a bid unless they're desperate.

I tried, but I can't think of a press your luck mechanic.

questccg
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Push-Your-Luck *recycled* mechanic

StagCutlery wrote:
I don't think people would toss in all their cards for a bid unless they're desperate.

Perhaps if we *replinished* hands to 3 cards instead of 5 would make it that much more conservative. Then players would carefully count the cards they use knowing that on their next turn they won't get the chance to use 5 cards (because they bid with more this turn...)

StagCutlery wrote:
I tried, but I can't think of a press your luck mechanic.

As for the "Push-Your-Luck" mechanic here is a sample, check out this older THREAD: http://www.bgdf.com/node/7666 (Read the LAST message in the thread).

You would need to modify things a little, in that instead of continuing with the existing Hero, you would continue with the Hero that you won during bidding.

I am *recycling* that mechanic because I had no practical application for it (did not work for any game I was designing). But I think the mechanic has merit and maybe somebody could use it; specifically for *this* game... since it adds an element of chance and it gives a way to "do quests" and "earn treasure".

StagCutlery
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I totally like how we're

I totally like how we're debating the merits of a mechanic that the OP has yet to comment on. :-)

questccg wrote:
Perhaps if we *replinished* hands to 3 cards instead of 5 would make it that much more conservative. Then players would carefully count the cards they use knowing that on their next turn they won't get the chance to use 5 cards (because they bid with more this turn...)

I would expect a limited way of refilling your equipment hand. A maximum hand size would also be important.
- a draft, where you choose one card from a set and pass the rest to the next player
- purchasing items from a shop of face up equipment
- purchasing the top number of cards from an equipment deck

StagCutlery
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Probably needs its own thread...

In another thread, the OP considered using dice, so the heroes could try to accomplish quests by die rolling. Suppose the VPs earned vary on what the hero does?
- the warrior scores extra VP if he completes a monster quest solo
- the barbarian scores extra VP if he uses less equipment

The OP could consider consider custom dice, like fighter dice have more "hits" than wizard dice.

abdantas
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Quest Givers

Maybe the quest givers can give your inn permanent passive bonuses. So a questgiver might give a fighter a permanent quest giver. But he's something you buy and add to an existing room, or things such as a bard needs an audience, so you add an audience card as a permanent fixture to one of your hall cards. Where the audience will cost a certain amount and can only be played on X or Y rooms. You could also add occupancy per room (this is what i think at least) So a fighter room might hold 2 fighters, so lets say there's 4 fighters in town, you being th emost fighter worthy area gives you dibs on how many fighters you want to gather, once you do, it's the next person's turn. Every time you fill a room, it could give you a positive/negative condition. I think of there maybe being an overpacked deck, that could be either negative or positive things that happen to you whenever you fill a room past the maximum occupancy.

randomuser
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On a different tangent, I

On a different tangent, I don't know if this would work with the way you've set up the heroes to be bid on, since you mention a group, but even if the heroes aren't bid on serially, maybe you can look at the previous round instead.

My idea would be as thus:

Fighters love drink, so any inn that has that gets a discount (better drink = better discount)

Wizards are lofty and aren't affected by discounts

Thieves don't like other thieves, so any other thieves at the inn make them less likely to go to the inn. On the other hand, they like crowds of non thieves. (more people = more discount, unless thief is already there, in which case each other thief already there = big penalty). If you want more variety, maybe you could say that each thief there makes the other three classes slightly less likely to go there (or even more more variety, maybe every thief that was in the previous round instead of this round, because of reputation, since any thieves in the inn at the moment aren't likely to announce themselves)

Bards love crowds. Any inn that has already attracted a crowd will get a discount (more people = more discount)

You could still run a secondary currency, perhaps food for the actual bid. One advantage of doing it this way is that everything is still bought in a single currency (food), but each class feels different, and it fits thematically.

Just my 2cp.

jerdude
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Wow, I don't have much input

Wow, I don't have much input but I did just want to drop in to say I absolutely love the theme. Really hope I can add this to my game library someday :-)

StagCutlery
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Any new developments?

Any new developments?

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