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Mission designs for my War game

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X3M
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Well, I have plenty of missions.
I even had to change some rules for the very first mission that I once designed.
But things are close to balance again. Yet the balance of + - 1% means an end result of + - 10% or higher. Which players might see as a big unbalance.

But the thing is, with all those different units. Even though there is balance where units have an equal number of wins and losses. It seems to be very hard for me to balance a mission itself if different units are pitted with an altered number of starting units.

This is what I noticed:

1)- The map has to be designed in such a way that 2 different squads of units against each other have a 50-50% chance. A simple example:
Rifle Infantry (RI) versus Snipers (S) where the RI have to walk towards the S in a sneaky way or else they are Sniped. The RI need just enough cover for not over powering the S once reached. Nor that the S have killed too much of the RI. During the walk, the S can shoot before hand. RI needs to take cover with every move for reducing the shots by 50%. The average number of shots that are close to the 50-50% end result are; 1,5 or 1. (10 to 15 kills) Players can spend XP, which makes it harder for balancing, since the S can spend it on their stats (mostly Health) before the RI are in position. However, 1 Event Card could tilt the scales more then what the basic fight would bring.

Should I try harder for better balancing? For example, 1 or 2 less RI?
Or should I not try any more on the armies, and simply balance the Event Cards instead now that I am close to the balance?

2)- When 2 groups of 2 different units each fight each other. Where 1 unit type is OP to the enemy and 1 unit type is UP to the enemy. The biggest OP wins the fight. The only way to balance this out is to give each player the same 2 unit types. Which makes it a mirror game. And that is something that I would like to avoid with my game. (Which would be rather unique)

Should I simply mirror the game?
Or should I keep my plan and simply pit the 2 players against an AI? Where the AI can be weaker or stronger by a little bit. This would result in having the same fight by the 2 players.
Of course they can fight each other after the AI fight. By watching what kind of XP they spend and anticipate on that.

Tips, hints or other suggestions are welcome. Even if you know of a game that has the same principles. Like different units for each player, yet a balance. I would like to know.

pelle
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PLAYTEST

Don't worry. No game I ever heard of had as a goal to make every unit have a 50 % chance to defeat all other units (on any given map with any given combination of other units present!). It sounds like an even worse idea than going for some kind of artificial rock-paper-scissors-balance. It sounds incredibly dull and wrong. If a small infantry unit (assuming RI is that) walks forward in open against a sniper they should take some losses. That's how it works. Look at reality (or the reality of the world the game is set in, if it is a non-real world) and make best-effort guesses how good units are, and put that in the game, don't try to just make up unit characteristics for game-balance. That will result in units that have unique roles to play and that are interesting to use, and that makes sense. Never allocate values "for balance" (or "because I heard RPS is hot, so I need unit X to be at least 50 % stronger than unit Y").

You can have a look at the rules and scenarios (in the rules PDF) for my game here: http://victorypointgames.com/details.php?prodId=95
You will notice it is extremely asymmetric. Units are rated the way they are to somewhat give them the characteristics of that type of unit in reality (somewhat exaggerated for effect). There is no way to balance that mathematically or by simulation. What you do is find several groups of playtesters and ask them to play every scenario to death, collect all reports in a spreadsheet. When you notice that one side is winning a scenario too often, tweak the victory conditions (in rare cases setup or special scenario rules) and ask them to replay the scenario again (to death... you have to start over of course because none of the old data is valid at this point). There is no substitute for this method I ever heard of.

For a more mainstream example it is worth looking at ASL (it is worth looking at anyway if your are serious about designing a wargame... it's definitely on the list of games a designer should have seen). There is a site that tracks play statistics of each scenario and a scary number of them has 50 % wins for each side or very close (considering that scenarios and units are all asymmetric, and considering the frequent use of dice in the game and how many weird random things can happen). The "trick" as I have heard it is that a scenario designer can spend up to a year playtesting a single scenario with different groups of players. There are no short-cuts. I think I averaged only 1-2 months per scenario with my game, but it is a lot simpler than ASL.

http://www.jrvdev.com/ROAR/VER1/Overall.asp

OK, there are a few wargames I know that ignore this. They are all historic tactical wargames and all from the same publisher. Those games have scenarios that are known to be very unbalanced, and the fans don't care. They just want to set up some historic (or what-if) scenario and play for a few hours and have fun and see a bit of history play out on the game table. Many enjoy that and don't care if it turns out to be almost mathematically impossible for one side to win. If your game is in that category (and only then) you can skip on the playtesting bit, but then you need a very strong theme to keep players interested even when they know the game is not fair. (Many big, usually not tactical, wargames are also like that, probably because no one has the time to playtest them enough, but they are so fun to play anyway no one cares if one side has a 50 or 10 % chance of winning.)

pelle
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your game

Have you introduced your game somewhere? I have seen you mention bits of it in two or three threads, but it is very difficult to comment with any accuracy on your ideas when you only see scattered parts of information and seeing abbreviations and references to parts of the games I do not know about.

larienna
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Perfect balance is hard to

Perfect balance is hard to achieve.

Of course you can give a unit a different value to balance forces, but there are other factors to consider:

A: Terrain: a player can be in a more advantageous terrrain and the otehr and it's hard to evaluate.

B: Rock paper scisor also influence the outcome. For example, if I have a weak army of planes while you have a huge ground army, if none of your units can attack planes, then I am invincible.

One pay to avoid this is allow reinforcement of the players choice to make him fill up the weakspot of his armies.

Terrain is harder to evaluate besides counting the numbe of tactical position a player has over the other player.

X3M
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Thus I repli

Ok, a long reply, so I provide/divide it in chunks.

@pelle
First paragraph:
I do have a rock scissor paper mechanism. But I am now pitting paper against paper in my first example. Although, perhaps I did not explain properly how the battle would go. So first the statistics of each unit:

Rifle Infantry (RI);
Costs 100
Army has 36 of these
Speed 2
Overall Health 3
1 Bullet with accuracy 6 out of 6 (1 on average)
Range 2

Sniper (S);
Costs 600
Army has 6 of these
Speed 2
Overall Health 6
6 Bullets with accuracy 5 out of 6 (5 on average)
Range 7

Open area fight:
Indeed the RI does not want to walk in an open area towards S. Especially not with a full squad since S would even have a Range of 8. With both units having a Speed=2 and the RI has Range=2, while the S has Range=7. In an open map, this means S has a chance of shooting 3 times (that is 3 rounds) before RI can start fighting. With 6 S in one squad and doing 5 damage on average each. We have a total of 30 damage on average. 3 rounds means 90 damage in total. Or 90/3=30 RI are dead by the time they can join the fight.
Once the fight starts, RI may shoot first because it is shorter ranged. Then S may return fire. And that 4th round is over. Those 6 RI that remain, might kill one S. But the return fire is 25 damage on average. You can tell that none of the RI remain after that.
Of course I also test with more and more terrain influence. Forests reduce by 50% and Mountains reduce by 100%. Moving behind these with open gaps means a reduction of 50% for the mountains as well. In this mission the RI have to be completely safe behind mountains. Because forests do not make a difference by the rules.

I could throw in a 50% forest, reduction of only 25% once camping behind it.

(on a side note: S loses against most of the Jeeps and Tanks, while RI has way better chances due to numbers)

Second paragraph:
Where did you get those pictures for your game?
Any way, my testing (since play testing is rather obsolete in my town);
-I am good in math and have knowledge on how battles occur due to analysing tons of RTS, so I use Excel or paper and a calculator for simply writing down the numbers that are needed.
-I write down how players would think at the best thinking skill, which can be 1 dimensional. This includes optimal placement of the injured in a squad, possible terrain effects, and optimal spending of XP on the units. The results are put into a table, sometimes even a graph.
-I mostly end up with 2 situations that are very close to each other, one situation is more apparent with 1 Event card, the other with the other. So I take both situations and both Event cards for each situation, and I test the 2 paths again. There is mostly a 50% chance for the needed Event card in my missions. But with 4 rounds, that one Event card needs to be in a pack of 8 cards for a 50% chance on getting the card.
-Then I lay out the map where this 1 dimensional path takes shape in a 2d world. And I check if something different is possible on that map for players to do.

An Event card can simply tilt the scales. Players are playing the game without realizing they are flipping very slowly a coin.
More Event cards that can tilt the scales can be allowed. As long as I put 1 positive for each player inside the deck.

Paragraph 3:
If I am serious? Good question. I am working on this game for 5 years now. There was not much interest. Until 1 year ago. Then I decided to do it in a "professional" way. But with my job and other hobbies. I don't have much time on this. So it will go slowly.

Those percentages are indeed only obtainable with play testing. However, I do have to keep in mind that players have several tactical choices. Even with 2 papers against each other. I will adopt this if my game ever sees the light.

Paragraph 4:
I am not going to be historic. I want to tell my own story. So play testing it is. Although, I want to balance it out first before I even allow players to play test :).

@pelle
Well, I have not post the full game anywhere yet. Although, there are 2 people in this world that have received an old copy of my manual. But that manual has to be reviewed by me first. I need to find time for this. Once done, I could send you a copy if you like.
But I also want to add the pieces this time for players to print out and play with. After all, playing with only pieces of paper with words written on it, does not suit the tastes of lesser wanting players. That's why I have a hard time finding players for testing.

@larienna
All of the above is actually some sort of answer to your post.
Specific on reinforcements:
- Allowing players to have reinforcements is a way. But I need to balance that too. The difference of 1 soldier or tank means a great disturbance in the force.
- Spending XP is some sort of reinforcements. Increasing Health is mostly the best way.
- Income (reinforcements) differences also greatly influence the game. But for that one, I need to go very deeep into the math.

If I had the time now, I would post my testing results. But that would make this post long.

X3M
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X3M math

I think I have to go for play testing as well, once my game is a complete prototype again.
You can see here why...

I did some testing in Excel, creating a summarized possibility tree. Specially designed for my game. Normally you have like 216 outcomes for 3 dice. I can narrow something like that down to only 7 outcomes. Since each die can have 0, 1 or 2 damage.

It just turns out that having 30 dices for one "hit" roll, has 2,06*10^14 possibilities.
I know how to narrow that down to the 61 outcomes (0 to 60 damage). No need to draw a super tree :D
However, each outcome has different reactions of the player, with spending XP. And the enemy has to put 1 unit into protection which happens in 67% of the time.
Now I know how high the chance is for each outcome:

1
30
465
4930
40020
264306
1474795
7133130
30462615
116470380
402993396
1272714300
3694270125
9912297150
24702429825
57407789550
1,24839E+11
2,54771E+11
4,89164E+11
8,85532E+11
1,51429E+12
2,44998E+12
3,75551E+12
5,46059E+12
7,5389E+12
9,891E+12
1,23406E+13
1,46499E+13
1,65546E+13
1,78123E+13
1,8252E+13 Obviously the 30 damage mark. Which is about 9%
1,78123E+13
1,65546E+13
1,46499E+13
1,23406E+13
9,891E+12
7,5389E+12
5,46059E+12
3,75551E+12
2,44998E+12
1,51429E+12
8,85532E+11
4,89164E+11
2,54771E+11
1,24839E+11
57407789550
24702429825
9912297150
3694270125
1272714300
402993396
116470380
30462615
7133130
1474795
264306
40020
4930
465
30
1

My plan on having each situation tested has 3 flaws:
1- still a lot of possibilities. Even though it is 61.
2- Is it even useful to test the 1 out of 2,06*10^14 th chance? How about chances that are around 1%? What would be acceptable for continuing testing?
3- each next turn has this many more possibilities. Until my RI return fire. The difference between 30 dead RI or only 29 dead RI will be tremendous in the last round. Should I take these differences into account the least?

So, I guess it is safe to say that I need to stay with only the average of each round. Right? I still have to play my, there is a forest of ##% card, for the 50% outcome. But for that I need to test with a plan on narrowing it down. Calculating backwards is not an option. Even though you know that both armies have to end up with 0. They both can have different situations right before the very last round. Meaning that some units might have only 1 health, and that there where more to end with. Etc.

The rule that you can protect injured units is the one that makes this so difficult. However, that same rule is what makes this game so tactical.

X3M
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Ow and, more to topic. What

Ow and, more to topic.
What kind of missions are out there?
I think that there are a lot of different missions that are all kinda the same.

Has anyone have original idea's?

larienna
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You mean like the type of

You mean like the type of objectives:

Destroy the ennemy
Hold an area for X turns
Capture X areas
Prevent ennemy to cross a line
escort a weaker unit to destination
etc.

X3M
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Yes, but I already have made

Yes, but I already have made a list of possibilities from all the RTS that I have played so far.

Then I plan the "existing" units into these missions. And some missions are regarded as future material. However, I have not played all the RTS. And perhaps there are missions in existing board games that are original too.

The harder missions are combinations of simple missions. But I have not yet discovered a new original idea.
Only an unused combination where you need to destroy as many prototypes as possible. The ones that remain are your enemy again in the next mission. One side has 2 and the other player has 1. Although, it is used before, the consequences that occur makes it a bit original.

Objectives:
1-Protect (at least) unit(s)...
2-Destroy (at least) units(s)...
3-Conquer (at least) units(s)...
4-Conquer (at least) position(s)...
5-Control (at least) position(s)...
6-Bring (at least) unit(s) to (at least) position(s)...
7-Do it within X turns...
8-Do it for a minimum of X turns...
9-Do it with these unit(s)... (Other units are not allowed to do)
10-Build (at least) this...
11-Prevent...

Every missions is a combination of some of the above.

(3)Destroy the enemy
(5+8)Hold an area for X turns
(4 or 5, there is a difference notable in strategy)Capture X areas
(4 or 5 in a 11)Prevent enemy to cross a line
(1 until 1 achieved 4)escort a weaker unit to destination

Consequences:
A-Win
B-Loss
C-Tied (more like D and E) C is actually an end for multi player.
D-Next round you get...
E-Next round you wont get...

D/E; Rewards or losses, which can modify the difficulty of the objectives:
!!-Units...
@-Technology...
##-Turns or Time...
$-Fundings...
%-and for my game; Event Cards...
^^-and for my game; Experience Bonus...

In a way, I am looking at every combination. Some missions have multiple combinations of units and difficulty. But the player does practically the same if you think about the basics. Just wondering if one of the three lists can be expanded.

X3M
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Change of plans

Even though I would like to have missions for my board game.
And a story book with it. The maps that I thought of do not lend themselves for a symmetric game play. Which is more vital. And in a little question round, most players want to be able to use all the units in one game.

It would be too much work. And the box would have to contain to much material. While I don't even know if players really would like my game. Perhaps many things would be changed. I am still not sure about unit pieces size and the region sizes.
So there for I have decided not to go with missions in a story.

Instead, I keep it simple:
- A bigger board, (144? small hexagons instead of 3 times 36?)
- Symmetric map designs for 2 and/or 3 players.
- No AI.

So, where to post about unit, region and complete board sizes?

larienna
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Random comments: Making maps

Random comments: Making maps for a video game where the player fights against an AI is much less a trouble because an unbalance in the map will either lead to a too easy or too challenging map. But in Player vs Player it's tricky because both players need to have fair chance to win.

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