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Need Help with Combat Mechanics!

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Westmaas
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Hi there! I'm new to the forum, though I've been browsing for a few months now. I've created my own fantasy tabletop role-playing game (in the vein of D&D, Heroquest, etc.) and was hoping for some feedback, criticism and suggestions on how to improve my current combat system.

The game has 6 playable Heroes (Warrior, Ranger, Adventurer, Mage, Dwarf, Cleric) and a GM. It plays out on a gridded square map, using the Gamemastery Flip-Mats. I'm striving for a balanced system without too much number crunching, but I'm afraid of it being too simplistic at the same time - I'll start by explaining how it operates thus far.

ATTACKING

For Attacking, I felt it best to use a 'Target Number' scenario, in which all enemies have a set DEFENSE value that the heroes must overcome in order to score a hit. Each hero uses 1D10 + their Weapon Die to attack with. Each weapon corresponds to a die.

For example, the Mage uses 1D10+1D4 (staff) to attack, while the Ranger/Cleric uses 1D10+1D6 for their bow/mace respectively. The Adventurer uses 1D10+1D8 for his spear, and the Dwarf uses 1D10+1D10 for his axe. The Warrior has the greatest advantage, using 1D10+1D12 for his starting longsword.

Each hero will be stuck with the same type of weapon throughout the game, but as they get better versions, the qualities will rise. For example, the Cleric will upgrade to a Morningstar with an attack of 1D6+2.

As it stands, I can use a wide range of Enemy DEFENSE values and still make it possible for my weak Mage to hit in melee combat without having to resort to his magic every time. Because the GM doesn't roll to defend, it keeps the attacking round swift and manageable.

At current time, ties always go in favor of the HERO (unless listed otherwise), and DAMAGE is a set value corresponding to the weapon. but I'm open to suggestion.

DEFENDING

For Defending, I wanted the Heroes to have a chance to defend, thus giving them more involvement in the outcome. This posed a problem, because I found contested rolls to be unpredictable, so I couldn't just replicate the Attacking procedure for the monsters.

I decided to use a variant of the old Fighting Fantasy rules, where Enemies have a set ATTACK value, and roll 2D6, which they then add to find their total. The Heroes also roll 2D6, add it to their DEFENSE value (which their current armor indicates), and, if the total is higher, they have defended. In the event of a tie, the Heroes get the right of way. Monster DAMAGE is also a set number at this point.

I also have some of the better armor allowing for the roll of 'Shield Dice' which, when a Hero is wounded, allows the armor to absorb some of the DAMAGE inflicted.

That's it in a nutshell, and of course, there will be a lot of combat modifiers in the game based on roleplaying (+/- advantages to heroes behind cover, in the dark, elevated vantage, etc.)

My main questions are this:

- Is it a good idea to switch combat styles depending on Attacking/Defending? Will that be confusing for the player to be rolling a different combination of dice to ATTACK, and then a set 2D6+DEFENSE to defend?

- Is there a more interesting way to figure out DAMAGE without it being too unpredictable with rolls, or simplistic with set values?

- Does the system seem too contrived and unoriginal?

Sorry for the long post, any feedback would be much appreciated, and I can shed more light on some things that might have sounded confusing in the post. Looking forward to hearing back!

Westmaas
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Added Notes

I also wanted to mention a few more things about the system to aid in the balance:

Because the Warrior and Dwarf have high weapon advantages (1D10/1D12 starting dice) they do not have the ability to cast magic. The Mage has a low starting die (1D4) but may attack diagonally. The Ranger can strike from a distance, but will be limited by the amount of DAMAGE inflicted. The Adventurer, using the spear, may also attack diagonally, but suffers defensively. The Cleric is well rounded.

It's also worth noting that all heroes have six attributes (STRENGTH, DEXTERITY, VITALITY, INTELLIGENCE, WISDOM, CHARISMA) that are often tested to see if one of their character-specific COMBAT SKILLS are successfully performed or not. For example, when surrounded by 2 or more enemies, the Dwarf may use his SPIN-SLASH SKILL to attack them all in a single round, with the successful test of STRENGTH. (It will also deduct SP - SKILL POINTS - from him.)

In terms of creating these SKILL values during the character creation, I'm still pondering whether or not to use the roll of 3D6 to determine each one, or implement some sort of point-assigning system.

stubert
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OK - Question 1: Defense

OK -

Question 1: Defense should be static for your heroes just as it is for your monsters.

Think of it this way:

When you attack, you are taking a weapon, thinking actively about overcoming any defensive maneuvers of your opponent, applying a skill set, and physically manipulating it based on all of these. Your opponent is either taking the hit to armor or themselves, dodging, or getting missed. The three options for the defender are LARGELY based on the choices of the ATTACKER.

That said, I would assume that as with the other systems, bonuses based on the attributes (CHARISMA, STRENGTH, DEXTERITY, etc...) are at a certain level because they are INNATE attributes. This would mean that if someone threw a rock at someone with a dexterity of 5, they are not as able to move out of the way, or clumsy and oafish, or don't know how to gracefully take the hit of the rock in a way it won't hurt them. But someone with a dexterity of 20 would EASILY be able to dodge the rock - WITHOUT A DIE ROLL TO CHECK WHETHER THEY ARE ABLE TO, because by the nature of an attribuite, they have a 20 basically because they are JUST... THAT... GOOD!

If you needed them to, say, jump from rooftop to rooftop while chasing a thief, however, you WOULD need to roll to see whether the dexterity 5 or the dexterity 20 hero made the jump without being affected by falling rooftop tiles, landing funny, excessive wind, etc...

SO, the defense should be a static value based on the armor of the defender, but should be allowed to be modified by attributes STATICALLY. Assuming attributes of, say, 15 being moderately good, strength can mean you are not as damaged by hits, so a +1 to defense, dexterity means you can take hits gracefully to reduce damage, and dodge most others, so +3 to defense, intelligence over, say, 20 might get a +1, simply because you can think of defending WHILE attacking, so a +2 on defense, etc... add these to the armor you are wearing with a defense of 6, and your defense starts at a STATIC 12, regardless of the attacker against you.

Rolling on defense will confuse the game, and allow for more debate as to the quality of the rule-governing system, "well, I should ALSO be able to roll a d6 to see if my guy can duck and roll into combat so he can't get hit before he attacks..."

Your heroes KNOW they are able to be hit by opponents, and they have prepared themselves mentally and physically for this in their armor and attributes. Their opponents presumably have also. Treating them differently would be counter-intuitive.

Question 2: To simplify damage, yet leave it dynamic enough to be interesting, you SHOULD have different weapons be worth different damages (if I hit you with a bamboo staff in the face, you'll most likely live, but if I do that with a sledgehammer, well...)

BUT, the amount of damage should also be based on the DIFFERENCE between the "to hit" and "defense" rolls.

If your opponent has a defense of, say, 5... and you have a warrior that rolls a 3 on his d10, and a 5 on his d12, he hits. but if he rolls a 10 on his d10 and an 11 on his d12, is a 21 against a 5 the same as an 8 against a 5?

It shouldn't be, otherwise, why don't you just have "yes" and "no" labeled on certain sides of the dice, and count up who gets more "yes" rolls? mainly mecause you want the experience to be based on a SCALED RANGE OF VALUES THAT REPRESENT SOMETHING REAL.

The 8 should represent a glancing blow, while the 21 should represent a square hit, possibly knocking the opponent down... (this also makes the prospect of "awesome" die rolls exciting, and actually rolling them satisfying to the players...)

so, damage should be a static weapon value, but should also be, say, +1/4 (you can tweak it during testplay...)for each point in the difference between the rolls... (rounded up/down at DM's discretion...)

so, with a warrior's weapon with a damage of 7, the 8 against the 5 would be worth 8 points of damage, (7 + 3/4 = 7.75, rounding to 8...) and the 21 would be 11 points of damage (7 + 16/4 = 11). static modifiers from attributes like strength and vitality and possibly skill with the weapon they're using may also apply...

Question 3: HAHA... that's a question LOTS of people ask about their own game design... as with any product, most of what you're doing will not be COMPLETELY original... the key that makes that question not matter (barring any copyright/trademark infringement, of course) is this:

Is what you made original in CONCEPT, or THEME, or does it have even ONE dynamic or mechanic that (even if it isn't an original dynamic or mechanic) makes your gameplay different?

If so, then it doesn't matter what people say about what they think your game is BASED ON, you've modified it to be your own, and as long as you don't DIRECTLY rip off these things, or blatantly just use pieces of other games, it can be considered an homage to the genre of RPGs in general.

Think about the sheer number of RPGs that exist... ALL of them have to have the kind of mecahnics you've described, but have tweaked them in some way to make them somehow their own entity... what happens of leather-clad, horse-riding warriors traipse in on a mutant zombie-infested technology-driven wasteland? the possibilities are relatively endless, but the point is simple... people combine mechanics all the time, and come up with the same ideas miles apart, with no knowledge of each other, and AT RELATIVELY THE SAME TIME, sometimes... it doesn't mean you're stealing ideas unless you feel you are (or it can actually be PROVEN that you are...)

So, I wouldn't worry about question 3.

Jarec
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I'd argue that the players

I'd argue that the players are the only ones making rolls. Rolling damage to monsters, and making defensive rolls against their static attacks. That way you'll have players feel more in control of their actions, and the GM's left to construct the obstacles for them.

Is the damage applied like 1 HP loss for one successful attack, or as many HP lost as how much the attack beats targets defense?
In case of the first, you could make tier-based defense; beat 4 = lose 1 hp, beat 6 = lose 2 hp, beat 10 = lose all hp.

One thing I've come across in the games like these that's something to think about, is that when the mage-type character is out of mana, they have so little to do that some players become really frustrated. So there should be something for them to do meanwhile. One idea I generally had was that some (regenerative) shield value could be knocked out with any attack, so the mages could go in to slap that shield out of the enemy's hand for the heavy hitters to go in.

Also, I hope you let players to choose race also. I'd wanna be a Dwarf Dwarf!

baberahamlincoln
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Heroes

One thing I'm thinking about when reading through this is your use of the term "heroes" (for Player Characters (PCs)). It seems like you want this to be the focus of the game - that the players are controlling heroic individuals, destined to be greater than others, and that they have some sort of edge or advantage as a result. This could end up taking many forms, such as ties always going to the PCs, the PCs always making the rolls (vs static attack or defense values for NPCs) and therefore keeping them engaged, to introducing the concept of possible automatic successes for very powerful characters, to keeping play fast and fun.

Some things you could consider (some based off of previous comments) if this is what you are looking for -

- combining attack and damage into a single roll. Roll #dX + Stat to attack. If this beats the static defense, damage done is equal to the difference between the two. To prevent this from getting out of control, the types of dice being used and stat modifiers can be manipulated to reflect different types of attacks. A d12 has an average roll of 6.5, but 2d6 has an average roll of 7. However, it is much easier to get a 12 (or 1) on a d12 than a 12 (or 2) on 2d6.

- with the above, you could add extra damage when the max value on a die is rolled, such as doubling the value of a die, adding a fixed amount, or doubling the entire result. This could allow for the increased possibility of critical hits when rolling multiple low score dice, vs rolling a single large score die.

- to reflect high toughness, low mobility creatures, a secondary score of "toughness" / "resiliance" could be introduced, providing a fixed modifier to the damage done after an attack. This could exist for PCs as well, and be based on their Vitality (always gets hit, heroically shrugs it off)

- have it possible to always succeed at a task. When the target value of something can always be achieved (for example, 2d4+5 will always be 7 or greater), then it always succeeds. The only time to roll would be if there is some benefit to having a higher number. The high dex heroic character will never have to roll to walk along a ledge. But the low dex cleric might. However, because there could be a range of outcomes from different attack rolls, players would always need to roll, even if success was guaranteed. If combined with success ranges / tiers (as per Jarec's comments), this could be translated directly to the calculated success tier.

- consider simplifying your stats. Something I've got in my notes for an arena combat game would be to use stats with numbers that would directly convert to roll modifiers. So a strength of 3 always adds 3 to strength related rolls. A dexterity of 8 would always add 8 to dex rolls.

- weapons could use strength or dexterity for attacks, depending on the weapon.

- you briefly mentioned a role playing aspect to the game. I'd recommend opening up your classes a bit if this is the case, and splitting race from class. Not all dwarfs are the same, not all elves are the same. Likewise tie damage to the weapon, not the class. Class should impact what you can do. So, maybe only rangers can use bows, but the bow defines the damage, not the fact that they are a ranger. EDIT - but, if you are aiming for fast and simple, you can keep some of this really basic - like, extreme limitations on what you can do based on class. In retrospect, that was probably what you were trying to do with the race = class thing, though from a role playing perspective, that doesn't really jive for me.

Westmaas
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Thanks for the response!

To all the above comments, thanks very much for the replies! Very much appreciated, they're stacked with great ideas. I'm going to be trying out a bunch of them.

The idea to have DAMAGE be equivalent to the amount that beats the Target Number is great, and the post above mentioned simplifying the stats, which I'm also going to do - no need over complicating things for no reason.

The Heroes are indeed the focus of the game, so maybe I should just focus on their rolls rather than the GM's rolls in terms of flow - the GM will have enough fun with the other aspects of controlling the story anyway.

Another question that popped into my head has to do with critical hits - how should I implement them? Every character has to roll a D10 when attacking, so should every time a '10' is rolled on that die, a critical hit occurs? Or is there a better way??

fnord33
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I'm new to this, so I can

I'm new to this, so I can only offer my opinion. I wouldn't worry too much about the game mechanics being original. I kind of prefer it when I can glance at combat rules and say, "Oh, that's just like _____". It makes it easier to teach, and I get to play the game faster. The story element is what makes or breaks it for me.

You could keep the crits in check by requiring they role be the highest value on all the dice being rolled.

Westmaas
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Actually that's some of the

Actually that's some of the best advice I've ever heard, thank you. I've been stressing out over this for a little while, but sometimes it's best to have a system that people can relate to, rather than trying to spring something new and somewhat unbalanced on them.

The other facets of the game (story, flow, level design) are where my true talents and influences will shine. Thanks for that!

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