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Simple mechanics, lots of information

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Squinshee
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Hey guys!

It's been a while, but my current game design plays a lot like the Pokemon video games which is actually a goal (well, a better version of it). Only the battling component - Both players choose an action (attack, block, suit up, special, or power-up), place desired action facedown, then reveal. Actions occur in a specific order.

In my game "Suit Up!" you choose a character. That character has three costumes. Each costumes has 3 Attacks, an ability, and a temporary buff that can be activated. You can only have one costume in play. Your chosen character also has an extra card that gives you some extra special abilities.

This is what each character possesses in total (each costume):

9 Attacks
3 Abilities
3 Buffs
2 Specials (these work with any costume)

That's already a pretty sizable amount of information to learn. The problem I'm facing is that the first playthrough is information OVERLOAD because it's also important to know what the opponent is capable of, doubling the amount of information you need to take in.

Each successive playthrough, players get more accustomed to what they and their opponent can do. BUT, I don't want the first playthrough to be so intimidating to dissuade players from coming back. BUT I also know that this game is all about different match-ups; asymmetry.

Should I design my game to be less intimidating by sacrificing depth? Should I design a "lite" version to have players practice with? My goal now is to make it less intimidating WITHOUT sacrificing depth, but I'm not sure there's a whole lot that can be chopped.

If I'm being too abstract, lemme know.

X3M
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Don't be afraid for players

Don't be afraid for players to learn a game.
It doesn't sound like it is too much.
So I suggest having a lite version would do the trick.

Perhaps a mirror game, where your opponent uses the exact same character?

Squinshee
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Yeah, a lite version mirror

Yeah, a lite version mirror match isn't a bad idea. I must admit though that designing and therefore manufacturing extra components used only for your first few games sounds like misplaced time, energy, and monies.

All I know is that Suit Up doesn't really build up in complexity as the game progresses, unlike most games. It doesn't become less complex either since new pieces and mechanics aren't introduced as it continues. It's more resource management and predicting what your opponent does.

I can't really think of many games like this. Can you guys?

X3M
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If it is possible, design in

If it is possible, design in such a way that a part of the game can be left out for the first try outs?

And the other game that you are looking for could be chess.
There the lite(st) version has only the pawns, king and rooks. Then before the full game starts, other pieces can be added one by one for learning them.

In your case. Are those 2 specials really needed to play the game? Or are they just additional options?
You also could do a slow build up in the attacks. First 3, then 6, then 9? Just a guess on that one, I don't know the mechanics.

kos
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Costume changes

Would it makes sense for first-time players to play an intro game with only one costume? That would limit the learning curve to 3 attacks, 1 ability, 1 buff, and 2 specials.

Regards,
kos

Zag24
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Acquire elements as you play?

Can you make it so that players acquire these elements as they play? That is, you start with a suit that has all these slots, but they are only filled with the "standard" gear which just does basic damage and basic defense, perhaps with just one personal special ability. The goal is to give the players only three or four choices initially.

Then they gain better gear to go in these slots, giving them perhaps one more choice per round. Since they've already had a chance to weight their initial choices, adding one more won't seem so complex. You could have an auction, or loot, or just a random draw -- whatever makes sense for your theme -- as the mechanism for them to acquire the new items.

Squinshee
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As someone who enjoys

As someone who enjoys progression in games, I'd love to incorporate it into my design but truthfully, I'm not sure it needs it. Attacks use up energy (cards in your hand) so some attacks are totally off limits simply because you don't have enough energy to use it. That's one of the ways I've made Suit Up be more predictable- make certain actions unusable due to circumstance and have players play more defensively to accrue more energy when they're low. But since you're low, maybe you want to be unpredictable? That kind of mind-game space is what I'm aiming for.

I like the idea of removing specials from the first play through. Seeing as my pawns (wife and friends) ignored them/was too much to take in, that's an easy adjustment. I could also remove powering up too.

I've been told that these might want to be completely axed, but I think a slower progression of learning is a good approach and these things give you the player extra wiggle room, synergy, strategy, and flavor that brings out the designs of the characters and deepens the game. For example, Powering Up is a good option if you know your opponent isn't going to attack. Otherwise, the only other way to draw more energy is by blocking (but if you know your opponent won't attack, blocking won't garner energy). Suiting Up into a different costume does get you energy, but I want an action that let's you stay in your current costume and draw energy.

Man, I'm coming off a little defensive. Phooey. And this all probably makes no sense without a proper rule book. That'll come soon

X3M
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Actually, it is

Actually, it is understandable.

If I may place a suggestion.

Perhaps to make things even a bit more predictable.
2 types of energy cards? 1 that supports more attacks, while the other supports more defensive techniques.

This way if a player uses a lot of attack energy in one round. His/her opponent might guess that the next round, this player will be more of a defensive type.

Some techniques, like the special, will have a nice mixture of energy cards.

Squinshee
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I'm actually already doing

I'm actually already doing that. The deck is split between red and yellow. Red for attacks and Yellow for specials. Each card also has one of the three attack types, used primarily for blocking. So even if you have the right amount of energy to do an expensive attack, you may not have the right energy.

Squinshee
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I have revamped the Google

I have revamped the Google Doc for Suit Up! It's a bit of a read but I think it clarifies...well, hopefully everything. Here a link:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1K_4zXoHxh4AHKJJAQ5jFtIkb89gbMW6ZA9x_...

For all of those that DO read this, THANK YOU. Any comments, questions, criticisms, etc., are totally encouraged!

NomadArtisan
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Hey, I've been tinkering with

Hey,

I've been tinkering with a similar game myself!
A card game with battle mechanics like poke'mon anyway.
The biggest difficulty in the design for a game like this is making it easy enough to learn.

I read through most of your rules and have some feedback.

While it's simple in theory, I think your decision cards might be too complicated in practice. Not only having to pick your action, but also worrying about the orientation of the card when you place it down could get fiddly. (I've had the same design idea and have since scrapped it from my own games).

Also, and maybe I didn't read the rules thoroughly enough, but the yellow/red energy didn't seem to mesh smoothly with the rest of the system. Have you tried without the energy cards? Have you tried making the energy cards central to combat?
This last one might be my misreading, but just some thoughts.

I absolutely LOVE how you handle damage btw. I may have to borrow it for a few ideas of my own, if that's ok with you.

Squinshee
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Thanks for reading through my

Thanks for reading through my design doc! It's not the easiest read, nor the most clear, so I do quite appreciate you doing so.

Decision Cards are a bit wonky, I'll agree. In fact, I have an idea that would combine the two of them. I just can't physically create it yet, so this kind of works as a stop-gap.

As far as energy goes, it's already very attack based. Attacks have discard costs associated with them (next to their names) and many require Red, which I see as the attack energy. Yellow is the Special energy, usually referring to your character card to activate actions that all three of your costumes can use. Since you're playing as one kid with three costumes, I felt thematically that they should all share some innate specials and this also leads to more synergy.

I really like what boosting adds to my game (placing an additional card face down with your decision card) since itt adds cool wrinkles. I hate that in order to incorporate it, I need to add an Unboosted card to your hand. Play testers have found this to be both confusing and unintuitive. Luckily, my decision card solution would also remedy this.

The damage system I came up with took a while to figure out. If you haven't checked Kongai out (it's a flash game), it's intent was to create a perfect Pokemon. It eliminated all the training crap, made battles deep and simple. I bring it up because it's damage system is really good. I was bogged down for months, thinking I couldn't make a system as good as Kongai's. I can't say that I have yet, by I'm super happy with it.

Having said that, I must admit that I feel a bit uncomfortable letting you or anyone else borrow the damage system. I'm seriously flattered that you like it, but it's kind of my baby. I hope you understand and I'm sure that if you keep thinking about it you'll come up with an awesome damage system that you love.

NomadArtisan
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I totally get that. What I'd

I totally get that.

What I'd suggest you try with your system is remove the energy deck and have players hold 1 card for every action they can perform.
Unless I'm missing an action, that should come out to be only 14 cards
3 attacks (attack 1, attack 2, attack 3, so they'd point to your active costume's 1st, 2nd, or 3rd attack)
3 boosted attacks
1 buff
1 boosted buff
2 specials
2 boosted specials
1 switch left
1 switch right

Or you could make that 7 cards. One side is unboosted, one side is boosted. That way you can find what action you want to perform, then point the side you want to use toward your opponent.

I'd encourage you to try and figure out an energy system that doesn't add more cards.

Squinshee
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Oh wow, that's a really

Oh wow, that's a really really good idea. I guess I never realized that energy as cards was adding unnecessary complexity. So I'm definitely going to look into your suggestion. The only thing is that there's also blockng which adds 3 more cards to your hand...which might be too many. 7 is the most I'd want players to have, 10 is too much. There's probably a workaround though.

Great stuff to mull over! A new set of eyes is always so damn helpful. Thanks.

Squinshee
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I revamped the document to

I revamped the document to reflect that change. I'm going to playtest is later today. It's way clearer now.

nswoll
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BattleCon: Devastation of the

BattleCon: Devastation of the Indines is a similar game. Asymmetric sides, lots of special abilities, simultaneous card play

BattleCon tries to solve the complexity problem by including cards that list each character's abilities. However, in my few games I just ignored what possible combos my opponent could do and focused on my character. It's nice to have the info cards but they aren't really necessary. For me the game was so complex that I didn't really want to overload myself by worrying about both my opponents cards and my own.

Summary: leave the complexity. If players get surprised by opponents it's ok. As long as the game isn't too long many players will just play again now that they know what to expect.

Squinshee
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I checked out BattleCon a

I checked out BattleCon a while ago because I was told it does a lot of what I'm trying to accomplish. I just couldn't get into it, probably due to so much information being thrown at me.

After playtesting Suit Up! today, I realized I haven't been true to what I want out of the experience. Simply put, I don't like games that force you to understand tons of different abilities. I like depth with as few moving parts as possible. Suit Up! Is crammed with parts. My goal now is to simplify the crap out of it. I want it to be digestible, fast, and fun the first time you play.

Removing the energy deck and turnng it into a meter made the game so much smoother, as did eliminating the square decision cards. I quite like my mechanics, but I have to grind them down to their very essence. My number one design trap is creating depth by adding more and more and more. It's time to mash things together and take away.

Thanks for all the support guys. I'll update with progress/ask for more design help.

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