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Skirmish Game Order/Turns

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ReluctantPirateGames
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Joined: 09/27/2011
TerritoryGuilds

I realize that this topic was talked about not long ago, but that conversation went in a direction that didn't really apply to my game, so I thought I would try a new post. Also, this is about a game that I've posted about before, so some of you may recognize the attached image. Either way, here's a brief run-down of the basics and the problem.

Arenacraft is a skirmish-scale miniature game which is played in multiple "rounds." Within each rounds, players control a small force of units, each with an associated card describing its capabilities. This game is designed primarily with ease of play, not complexity in mind as an alternative to more mathy, tape-measurey games. Each unit begins as a Level 1 unit, and between rounds you may choose to increase the level of one or more of your units through a branching upgrade system. This way two players who begin with the same three units (Soldier-Scout-Monk) may by the end of game have very different teams (Paladin-Bombadier-Wizard or Ranger-Javeliner-Shaman). If you can decipher the weird representation of my graphics, the exact nature of this system should be pretty clear. Anyhow, my problem right now is in figuring out how to structure turns during combat. I have three main ideas:

1. Advance Wars System - Each player has a turn in which ALL of their units move and attack.
2. Territory Wars System - Each unit has a turn, and an order is somehow decided.
3. Chess System - Each player has a turn in which they may move 1 unit of their choice.

Right now I am desperately trying to avoid any system of action points or speed values, since it would introduce further balancing. I just want to have a system where it really feels like a quick combat scenario. My main concern is that some of these ideas may become unfair once a unit dies, and one player has less possible moves, especially in #2.

Thoughts?

NomadArtisan
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Joined: 12/12/2011
Without knowing what a unit

Without knowing what a unit can do when it acts, it's hard to suggest how units should be activated.

What does your combat system look like? What kind of actions can a unit take when it is activated?
That could help determine the best activation system for your game.

ReluctantPirateGames
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Joined: 09/27/2011
Combat Example

In terms of a unit's ability, think along the lines of Worms (the computer game). It is played on a square grid, and like in Worms, each unit's "turn" can consist of one attack and one instance of movement, in no particular order. Each unit has a set of three attacks that it can perform, and that set differs for each character. On top of that, units which have "trained" retain the attacks of their previous identity by keeping their old card underneath their new card. Attacks are structured like this:
-------------------
Recruit
[Speed-3/Armor-4/Health-4]

Slash - [Melee/Pierce-3]
0-2-5-6-6-9
If Slash damages, but does not kill its target, the user gains attack +1.

Intimidate - [Blast-3]
0-0-0-0-0-0
Target(s) receive defense -1. User receives attack +1.

Hilt Smack [Melee/Push-2]
1-4-4-4-4-5
This attack can be played immediately following a melee attack which fails to cause damage.
-------------------

To quickly explain some of that, the 6 values for each attack represent the strength as determined by a d6 roll. I think I've posted this before, but I did this because I was always bothered with the HeroClix (amongst others) system of a 2 d6 roll added to a set number. It gives every character the exact same attack curve, differing only by its starting value. I prefer the idea of some attacks being basically sure things, while other really depend on a good roll. Either way, there are several types of attack, the obvious two being melee and ranged. There are also passive attacks, which have no technical "range" requirement, shockwave attacks, which effect all units in a certain radius, and blast attacks, which are basically 1/4 of a shockwave, again with a set radius. There are also standard effects attached to some attacks. Push is pretty obvious, and Pierce, without going into too much detail, allows you to deal additional damage by meeting a certain requirement.

I realize that was a bit long winded, but maybe it will give you an idea of what I'm dealing with here.

NomadArtisan
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Joined: 12/12/2011
ReluctantPirateGames

ReluctantPirateGames wrote:

To quickly explain some of that, the 6 values for each attack represent the strength as determined by a d6 roll. I think I've posted this before, but I did this because I was always bothered with the HeroClix (amongst others) system of a 2 d6 roll added to a set number. It gives every character the exact same attack curve, differing only by its starting value. I prefer the idea of some attacks being basically sure things, while other really depend on a good roll.

I want to first state that I think you're not looking at the 2d6 curve correctly.

The 2d6 curve does not have a set percentage change per value change. The closer you are to the middle of the curve (7) the greater the % change per value change, while if you get to the ends of the curve, the lower the % change per value change. This ends up with a curve that does exactly what you say you prefer, being that some attacks will basically be sure things, while others are really dependent on a lucky roll. While if you have a pretty average rating vs. average rating, it's a near 50/50.

Because of this, a value change of even 1 or 2 can greatly change your chances, while a 1 or 2 difference with a d20 is always a set change of 5% per value difference.

I'm a huge fan of the 2d6 curve, so I can't help but defend it :D

I like your d6=attack value as well. I had a similar idea before where when two units fought, 1d6 was rolled for each which determined their attack/defense set to use for combat. If the attack was = or greater than the other unit's defense, the unit was destroyed. So it was possible that both units destroy each other.

Anyway, back to your game.
How many models are you picturing per side once the game is finalized? How are models destroyed?
From how you explained combat, I could see all models move turns, or alternating activation working. I would probably lean away from chess style combat, but that's without knowing the rest of the rules.

ReluctantPirateGames
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Chess style feelings

First, to clarify the models thing. I started with the idea that each player would begin with three unit "credits." This could be spent on 3 level 1's, 1 level 3, or a 1 and a 2. Then, between each round, each player would earn two credits, to be spent however they wanted, though I would cap the total army size on either side to 6. This way, a player could make a strategic decision to either improve his units or expand his ranks. Having worked a little more on the game since, I am beginning to lean away from that, favoring a system where each player starts with 3 level 1's, and is able to improve them however they wish, but cannot add new models. This solved a very real problem of cost, since more freedom means I need more copies of each model/card to support all possible army configurations.

For the purposes of this discussion, assume 3v3 always. Models will have a health and armor value. When you launch an attack on another unit, your attack value is compared to the target's armor value. If you exceed it (defender wins ties unless otherwise noted) you cause 1 damage. This, I hope, will keep complexity low. Once a unit has been dealt damage equal to its health value, which I assume will happen over several turns, it is destroyed and removed from the field, though it can be used again next round.

Also: Your defense of the 2d6 system is confusing, but probably valid. What I meant to say is that with 2d6 and an attack value of, say, 5, your character has a 1/6 chance of attacking with a value of 12, and a 1/36 chance of attacking with 7 or 17 (the extremes). What I don't like is that the bell curve is always the same: Your characters attack value +7 always has a 1/6 chance, no matter what the initial value, and your ultimate attack will always have a 1/36 chance. I just feel like melee attacks, for instance, should be much more even in spread, while high range archery should have a significant drop-off, requiring a much higher role to even have a chance of success.

So yeah, the game. It's interesting that you would have that reaction to the chess idea. Having gone over this with some people outside of the forum, I've gotten very similar responses to the chess thing, but with several different reasons. What is it about that idea that people think is not good? I've actually be leaning towards it more and more as time goes on.

NomadArtisan
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Joined: 12/12/2011
Not to drag on the 2d6

Not to drag on the 2d6 discussion, but what are you talking about specifically?
I'm envisioning that you roll 2d6, add this to your attack value. If the total equals or exceeds the target's defense, you hit.
The explanation you gave is not how the 2d6 curve works for the above example. If you roll 2d6 and add 5, you have a 21/36 chance of hitting a defense 12, not a 1/6.
And no matter what roll system you use, the same attack vs. the same defense will always have the same probability to hit. So either the term '2d6' means something different to the both of us, or your probabilities are slightly off.

As to the 'anti-chess' style. The main reason I don't think you should go that route is that I don't think it will mesh well with leveling up your units. What's to stop a player from just leveling up and activating their ranged unit only? What reason would a player have to not level up a single unit and keep activating it only? Chess inspired activation could work, like how Mage Knight handled their activation system. Basically you could allow one action per turn. If a unit activates two turns in a row, it takes a damage (representing pushing itself) and then can't activate on your following turn. The thing is though that this system still favors single powerful pieces as opposed to using multiple weaker units.

Also, something I haven't asked. What is the story behind this game? What's the reason you have units fighting? What's the fluff? I personally look at the setting of a games to help inspire their rules.

ReluctantPirateGames
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The Fluff

So Arenacraft has very little story. It's based on an old idea I had for a video game (basically a Worms clone) that seemed too difficult for a first attempt at Actionscript game creation. The story of that game was that two guilds were at war over a series of territories. At their disposal are three training facilities: A soldier's barracks, a temple, and an archer's lair. New soldiers are recruited from each facility, but can train further at any place of their choosing. The main hitch of the game is supposed to be the training system. A novice (archer level 1) that trains at the barracks becomes a rogue. And a recruit (soldier level 1) that trains at the archer's lair also becomes a rogue, but both retain the move-set of their past roles, making their character build very similar, but ultimately unique. This carries forward to the third level, where there are even more possible unit types.

I guess the board game has two "themes" in theory. The first is the straightforward theme of two warring guilds. You are attempting defeat your opponent in a series of strategic battles needed to control the area. First player to win 3 battles wins. Obviously the whole training thing is part of it as well.

The secondary theme is sort of a Super Smash Brothers thing. I know this is a very unrealistic idea, but I initially imagined that this would be a game system where I attach a Creative Commons License and encourage others to use it. I imagined that I would ask around the TGC community and see if some of the designers wanted to release expansions with their own characters, whether invented for Arenacraft or adapted from another game. The only design mandate would be some sort of leveling up system included for all units so that the overall idea of the game stays constant. Designers could certainly use the combo idea of my set, but there's no reason you couldn't use a more straightforward upgrade path where there is no choice involved. So with that in mind, the theme would basically be "A bunch of characters are fighting cause, you know, reasons..."

Also, my last word on the 2d6 is actually a picture. My issue is summed up in this graph, which shows the attack value curve of 10 different attacks using the 2d6 system.
http://oi43.tinypic.com/xcnddg.jpg

Hasenpflug
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Joined: 12/05/2011
I don't understand the

I don't understand the squiggles. To me rolling 2d6 reminds me of that Horse Race dice game:
http://unclesgames.com/images/products/704551042006_big.jpg
The Horses in the middle have more distance to go because rolling a 7 is the most common thing to roll with 2d6 and the probability lessens as you get lower/higher than 7. What about 1d12? every # has the same probability. That's what I'm going to do for the game I'm working on.

NomadArtisan
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Joined: 12/12/2011
Activation Idea

I understand that graph you posted, and it isn't a probability curve.
The length of the flat horizontal segments shows the number of results of a specific roll being obtained, thus the segments are longer in the middle and shorter at the outside.
This is the oddest way to represent a 2d6 roll I've ever seen as usually the Y axis is used for the # of possibilities while the X axis is used for the total that needs to be rolled. Having different 'to hit' values is superfluous in a probability graph IMO.
To sum it up, that graph is not a 2d6 probability 'curve', as the probability curve would be pyramidal.

Now to your game!
Have you played Heroscape? What if you had tokens numbered 1, 2, and 3. At the beginning of each round, players secretly place their tokens face down on each of their 3 units. Then each player takes turns activating their units in the order of their assigned tokens, revealing 1 and activating that unit, etc.

Basically this is an alternate activation system with a built in way of tracking who has and hasn't activated as well as adding a strategical level of having to choose the order you wish to activate based on how you think your opponent will want to order their units.

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