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Too much fidling?

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Wed, 04/20/2022 - 23:43
#211
X3M
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questccg wrote:X3M wrote:Here

questccg wrote:
X3M wrote:
Here are the 6 configurations for the table: Where X is a design for the faction... If I don't do the overlap. We got 6x6 faction themed combinations.

I think that's NICE too! You were questioning how to POSITION Units if there was NO BOARD... This formation/configuration method seems like it has a LOT of POTENTIAL! It's very different than anything that I've seen before!

Let me know what are the NEXT steps are... Cheers @X3M.


Those are design tables. Not unit positioning.

A design table is used for making a RTS game balanced if you use a mechanical RPS system.

Meaning...

If you have a mechanical RPS, or artificial.
You have a percentage or factor of effectivness for the weapons.

Starcraft has 3 different types of weapons and 3 sizes.
Concussive, normal and explosive for the weapons.
Small, medium and large for the sizes (armor types, in most other games)

I have tier 1, 2 and 3 for the weapons and armor types. While my RPS emerges from a math trick. It is in a sense a mechanical one.

The table used is for me to track what combinations I made with the armor types with the weapon types.

With 3 armor types and 3 weapon types. We can have 9 different combinations. That is the beginning.
Of course gaps can be left behind. But we can also decide to add more units. As long as we add just as much armor types as weapon types.

Now, the fun part is, knowing the limits of this system. In the card game we can have only one meat and one support design for each combination.
For example, a rifleman and sniper.
If we add another, the third design is more or less obsolete.

If the game was 2d, then you could go for several support designs. If the map has influence on unit sizes, you also could design various fodder and tanking of the same armor/damage combination.

Anyway. Another way to use the table is adding a layer of this second unit. But preventing too much designs. Thus a theme dictates if a design is support or not. Butnwe can have only 1 themed design per combination.

In a sense, we can have 3 themes per faction. And we got 9+3+3+3=18 designs.

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Thu, 04/21/2022 - 15:17
#212
questccg
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Hmm... Not sure about that!?

X3M wrote:
Those are design tables. Not unit positioning.

Never heard of this... Sounds like something you invented TBH. I'm about 75% done with documenting my version. I've added a few "extra" structures that need some more finessing ... But overall I think I've got everything that I need.

Obviously I'm not a "technical" as you are... Half the stuff seems beyond the scope or level of most people. And I'm working towards finalizing the design to maybe 90% with the Buildings/Structures and their corresponding Actions too.

My Development Deck is 75% done, my Officer Stacks are 100% done, the Tiers are 100% done, the Victory Condition is 100% done, Armor Classes need to be re-worked (I decided against "generic" version -- or Math-based figures) such that I will assign values for the various units myself... That's 25% done.

So I'm very advanced with the design. I will keep the Units ABSTRACT and leave that for future examination. Right now I will stick to "generic" units and I'll see how they might be able to be "fleshed-out" some more in the future.

I still have some things to take care of. But I like how this design has evolved into something "interesting". Must finish off the "design" before I can make a PROTOTYPE and test it out! Really looking forwards to that... Because I feel like there is much potential and the design (my own) draws from another source of inspiration.

Plus with all the "solutions" to obstacles along the way ... Makes me confident that I can start to design cards and make the game ... And get to the NEXT stage with is "prototyping". Still needs some work but I'm getting close to being able to design (assets) for the game.

Note #1: A lot of the challenges was "bridging the gap" between a card game and what I was trying to achieve. Magic is more what I would call a "card game" and what I've been working on is indeed a "card game" with additional rules to the way the game is layed-out and played.

But I'm going to START each player with two (2) STANDARD Structures: the Command Centre (HQ) and a Refinery. This is the "bare minimum" and your Officer Deck starts with NO CARDS. Again this is something different that the other popular Deck-Builders. You also will have the choice of ONE (1) "extra" starting Building/Structure of your choice. Perhaps a Barrack if you want to be very aggressive or a Recycle Plant which opens up your Development Deck...

All possibilities and various ways to get the game going...

If you want to "build-up" your Base ... That's one approach. Another is a "Soldier-rush" to try to get an early advantage over your opponents... That's two (2) styles for now. We'll see what other play styles emerge when other gamers get the game in their hands...

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Thu, 04/21/2022 - 18:55
#213
X3M
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I didn't invent it. But I

I didn't invent it.
But I don't really know the name...

RPS table??
I don't know.

It works slightly different than a weapon versus armor table.
The build is the same.
But instead of percentages effectivness. The designer actually combines the armor or body, with a weapon.
The weapon is a class like anti infantry, anti tank, or even anti air.
It doesn't tell you how strong the weapon is. Only what class it is.

The armor, or better yet bodies. Are classes too.
It doesn't say how strong they are. Only that it is an infantry, tank or air unit.

With 3 body and 3 weapon options. You get a 3x3 table. The diagonal from top left to bottom right, can be seen as a mirror. Anything on this mirror is an anti itself if you will.

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Thu, 04/21/2022 - 18:55
#214
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If only this forum was easier

If only this forum was easier to use. Like sharing pictures in a more simplistic way. Etc.

Then I would draw it for you right away...

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Fri, 04/22/2022 - 15:25
#215
X3M
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Possible theme's

Before I really start thinking of making theme's for the factions. I need to figure out what theme's are possible.

The number of projectiles that each thematic unit can shoot is the primairy theme.
This can go from 2 to 9. But perhaps I should nerf myself a bit.
Initially I thought:
2; Red
3; Orange
4; Yellow
5; Purple
6; Blue
7; White
8; Brown
9; Black
Green doesn't have this theme.

The other theme that isn't an attribute is having 2 different weapons on a design. The "2 damage tiers" theme.

***

Other theme's, thus attributes:
- Target Organic/Mechanical/Structure/Unit. This comes as a package, where 2 of the 4 will be put on one unit. And the other 2 are divided among 2 other units. Thinking of giving this theme to red. But also green. It automatically doubles the number of projectiles.
- Agile. Fits very well with green.
- Multi armor. Reserved for yellow. But white and black too can have this.
- Tough and Resistance. Some are stronger in an attack, others in defending. Not sure where to put this. Actually, these can be 2 theme's.
- Sacrifice. Whoever is going to have the mines. Will have this one for the defences. But... one of the factions should have it on the offence.

***

If I want to award theme's to colours. I can start stacking. Perhaps using less factions.
Also, this way, if I apply 3 theme's. Each faction will have 9 normal units and 9 thematic units. I am not sure about the defences though. Perhaps keeping these at 9 in total. And a theme could go to the defences instead of the units. But then again, maybe only 3 defence options instead of 9, as if these are thematic as well.

Let's see if I can at least have the 6 basic colours with 3 theme's each.

Blue:
6 + Sacrifice (defence) + 2 damage tiers

Red:
2 + Target + Resistance

Yellow:
4 + Multi Armor + ???

Orange:
3 + ??? + ???

Purple:
5 + ??? + ???

Green:
Target + Agile + Sacrifice (offence)

***

I think I need to think of some new theme's. But this can be new attributes as well.
The explosion attribute. Deserves a new post.

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Sat, 04/23/2022 - 10:55
#216
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"Explosion" actually a chain reaction

In my proto-type board game. I got several weapon attributes.

One of them is Chain (Explosion).

When a projectile hits.
A die roll can determine if it hits again.
In a sense, the first die explodes in more.

I got this in a chain until a certain number of hits occured.
But not written in that there are several dice after the first.

***

For the card game. I can't have a hit resulting in more dice.
The number of dice are set to a mix of 5 dice containing d6 and d8. Whatever they roll, the results are divided by 2 or 3. This cannot be changed unless I remove this rule.

So, how to get the explosion attribute to work?

I can only think of having the result not being lineair. But exponential.

2d result in
0, 1 or 2 hits divided by 2.
3d result in
0, 1, 2 or 3 hits divided by 3.

So, if I do this with an exploding die.
0, 1 or 4 hits divided by 2. The weapon factor is 2.5
or
0, 1, 4, 9 hits divided by 3. The weapon factor is 14/3....

I don't know. A sum is also an option.

0, 1, 3
or
0, 1, 3, 6
With factors 2 and 3.333

I don't know here...
Perhaps adding dice might work anyway.
Something along the lines of adding dice for every succesfull hit. But then for the whole army again.

Thus let's say, the accuracy is 4 out of 8.
3d8 are rolled.
147 is the result. Then 2 hits.
2 dice are added one time.
36 is the result. One more hit is added.

I can do this in the same way.
Of course, "infinity" can be used as well. But in my proto-type board game, the attack was only on one region. Not the entire opponent.

So, I am not sure if I should limit it or not.

The choice for the player of using 2d or 3d is of influence here.
The attribute will only be solid if I change that again.

Should I simply have a player roll 3 or 6 dice then? Thus fixing the number of dice permanently?

I think I have to go with that. What do you think?

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Sat, 04/23/2022 - 18:08
#217
X3M
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Fixed the dice

In a sense. A player has always a 3d roll for accuracy.
If a die is succesfull for a certain card with the "explosion" attribute on the wepaon. This card can roll again.

If I allow "infinity" the following accuracy with "explosion" get the following factor:
1/6: 0.2
2/6: 0.5
3/6: 1
4/6: 2
5/6: 5

1/8: 1/7
2/8: 1/3
3/8: 0.6
4/8: 1
5/8: 5/3
6/8: 3
7/8: 7

Of course, I could put in a limit. But the options will be limited as well.

***

Now thinking about it. If I have 2 or more cards with that attribute in the deck. And the accuracies are different. Then each stack of chips get their own dice again.

So, how do I solve that?

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Sat, 04/23/2022 - 22:54
#218
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Not to burst your bubble ... but

Values like 0.6 are not "player-friendly". How the heck are you supposed to multiply or divide by "0.6"??? Maybe 2/3 (66.67) that might be more probable. And I would express "0.2" as 1/5 and "0.5" as "1/2" to make integer math more comprehensible. I know you love the MATH stuff ... But sometimes I get the impression that you are not making USER-FRIENDLY mechanics for the game!

I'm not at all following any of that math: 1/8 = 1/7??? What? Are you saying you are going to REQUIRE "custom" dice?!?! I thought your goal was to keep everything using STANDARD DICE. You're adding too much complexity in return for the basic understanding of a feature than may only be used by 1/10th of your game...

Sure for you everything is infinite. But most of the things are too complex, require too much customization and are used so minimally.

But I guess if you are working on a Magic-Variant... Might as well be difficult to understand and play. Just like Magic I guess?!

Right now I completed my Buildings/Structures. And am trying to work out the illustrations and card layout for my Officers. I have some newer ideas that are much more compatible with the design. We'll see how things progress. More work to be done!

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Sun, 04/24/2022 - 09:16
#219
X3M
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They are not dealing with the math.

questccg wrote:
Values like 0.6 are not "player-friendly". How the heck are you supposed to multiply or divide by "0.6"??? Maybe 2/3 (66.67) that might be more probable. And I would express "0.2" as 1/5 and "0.5" as "1/2" to make integer math more comprehensible. I know you love the MATH stuff ... But sometimes I get the impression that you are not making USER-FRIENDLY mechanics for the game!
They are not dealing with that math. It is a personal factor that I use for the weight of a card.

questccg wrote:

I'm not at all following any of that math: 1/8 = 1/7??? What? Are you saying you are going to REQUIRE "custom" dice?!?! I thought your goal was to keep everything using STANDARD DICE. You're adding too much complexity in return for the basic understanding of a feature than may only be used by 1/10th of your game...
Accuracy 1/8 weights 1/8th.
But if the attribute "explosion" is added. Every hit for that accuracy. You get:
Σ((1/8)^x,x,1,∞)=1/7
I am not asking you to understand this math. Nor do I demand it from players. I was simply giving the weight factors that I was going to use. But here is a trivia. The weight factor is exactly how strong it is compared to the normal accuracy.

questccg wrote:

Sure for you everything is infinite. But most of the things are too complex, require too much customization and are used so minimally.
The only question I had was, how to make the re-rolls happen with the least trouble.

questccg wrote:

But I guess if you are working on a Magic-Variant... Might as well be difficult to understand and play. Just like Magic I guess?!
Believe me when I say, this is simpler than magic. The players roll some extra dice. There isn't a paradox that they must solve.

questccg wrote:
Right now I completed my Buildings/Structures. And am trying to work out the illustrations and card layout for my Officers. I have some newer ideas that are much more compatible with the design. We'll see how things progress. More work to be done!

I still think you should get your buyers what they paid for in the first place.

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Sun, 04/24/2022 - 09:22
#220
X3M
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Meanwhile I figured it out

A collapse.

When 2 or 3 cards have different results for the explosion attribute.
The extra dice are rolled separately. The die for all the cards is rolled first. Then 2, 1 or 0 cards remain. And this die keeps rolling, adding to a number of hits.

In order to track the number of hits, players can place some chips besides of the cards.

Once dealth with, the second die is rolled in the same way.
This will go faster.

Finally, the last die for the last card is rolled.

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Sun, 04/24/2022 - 09:59
#221
X3M
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Back to the first 6 factions

I updated this a bit. Not sure yet about some.

Blue:
6 + Sacrifice (defence) + 2 damage tiers

Red:
2 + Target + Resistance

Yellow:
4 + Multi Armor + Explosion

Orange:
3 + Explosion + Charging

Purple:
5 + Multi Armor + Charging

Green:
Target + Agile + Sacrifice (offence)

***

Projectile counting is not counted.

The following theme is not used yet:
- Toughness

The following theme's are used once:
- Resistance
- 2 damage tiers
- Agile

The followig theme's are used twice:
- Sacrifice
- Target
- Explosion
- Charging
- Multi Armor

If I add 2 more factions, Black and White. I could get each theme used twice again. It looks like, these 2 factions will be defending a lot.

White:
7 + Toughness + 2 damage tiers

Black:
Resistance + Toughness + Agile

***

I have now 8 factions. With all possible theme's distributed twice.

Seeing as how the sacrificing cards of blue are going to be mines. This is where the first sub-terrain will pop up. In order to have this countered. Every faction needs sweepers.... Not going to do that. Instead. The first Equip weapon will be a mine sweeper.
OR. The first generation of mines are well visible. But have a charging... in which case, I need to switch 2 theme's.
Probably the 2 damage tiers with the charging of purple.

But then again, not having any thing special about the first mines is doable.

***

Sacrificing units.... Perhaps I should take into account. That these cards should go back to the deck after usage. But if there is a mix of defeating them and some having a succes. Then I guess it is better to have all cards that are defeated. Going back to the deck, or ehm.... defeated pile.

It had a funny result though :D

***

For drawing and playing cards. I did some play tests.

There are 3 piles: the deck, the defeated and the discarded.

The best is drawing 5 cards from the deck.
Removing 2 from the hand and put them in the discarded pile.
The hand grows with 3 cards.
The player may play any cards, that are held in the hand.
The maximum hand allowed, is 7 cards at the end of the round.
Any defeated card will go to the defeated pile.

Once the deck is depleted.
The next round, the defeated pile will be shuffled and used as a new deck.
It is possible to play without a deck.
And of course, without a hand.

As long as you still can get resources and add chips to the cards on the table.
Obviously, if a card is defeated now, this card will not be showing up any longer.

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Sun, 04/24/2022 - 19:29
#222
questccg
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Ah okay ... now I understand better!

It's because you SKIPPED the part about explaining what the VALUES were for! You never mentioned "weights" and I thought had to do with your Accuracy Rolls! And then you say: "Accuracy 1/8 weights 1/8th." Okay that makes sense (again). But then you added:

X3M wrote:
But if the attribute "explosion" is added. Every hit for that accuracy. You get: Σ((1/8)^x,x,1,∞) = 1/7

What is "x" and how the heck do you compute this SUM?? Haven't done this kind of MATH since College/University. Sum of 1/8 to the Power of x, what is the 2nd "x" and between "1" and "infinity"...

X3M wrote:
Believe me when I say, this is simpler than magic. The players roll some extra dice. There isn't a paradox that they must solve.

Okay if you say so... This is hidden from the PLAYER but how DOES it AFFECT the "rolling of extra dice"??? How many dice, what kind of dice, are they custom or standard, etc. You didn't explain all of this either...

X3M wrote:
I still think you should get your buyers what they paid for in the first place.

I understand you have more content to design... Things like modifiers and abilities and/or additional attributes and variants. So yeah I understand what it is you are working on! Especially with the Factions, these equate to YOUR "Color-pie" (I think)... Cheers!

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Mon, 04/25/2022 - 06:42
#223
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questccg wrote:It's because

questccg wrote:
It's because you SKIPPED the part about explaining what the VALUES were for! You never mentioned "weights" and I thought had to do with your Accuracy Rolls! And then you say: "Accuracy 1/8 weights 1/8th." Okay that makes sense (again). But then you added:

X3M wrote:
But if the attribute "explosion" is added. Every hit for that accuracy. You get: Σ((1/8)^x,x,1,∞) = 1/7

What is "x" and how the heck do you compute this SUM?? Haven't done this kind of MATH since College/University. Sum of 1/8 to the Power of x, what is the 2nd "x" and between "1" and "infinity"...

It is for the texas instruments.
First part is (1/8)^x, the formula that is used.
Second part is x, thus which variable changes.
Third part is 1, the first value for x.
Fourth part is ∞, the last value for x.

The calculater simply does:
(1/8)^1 + (1/8)^2 + (1/8)^3 + ... (1/8)^∞
Which results in 1/7.
So, when a player has to roll a 1 on the d8, the chance is 1/8.
But if the player is allowed to re-roll for more hits after a hit. The average result is 1/7. And I balance combat on averages.

questccg wrote:

X3M wrote:
Believe me when I say, this is simpler than magic. The players roll some extra dice. There isn't a paradox that they must solve.

Okay if you say so... This is hidden from the PLAYER but how DOES it AFFECT the "rolling of extra dice"??? How many dice, what kind of dice, are they custom or standard, etc. You didn't explain all of this either...

I was thinking about it. Eventually I setled with the last post about having the players roll extra dice for each hit. But since there can be 1, 2 or 3 hits due to different accuracies. The worst accuracy is rolled first.
Frankly, I am not sure what method is best yet. And perhaps I really should do this per card from the moment that the attribute comes into play.
A player will have no more than 3 different accuracies if I design that way. So 3 re-roll stacks if you will.

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Mon, 04/25/2022 - 12:25
#224
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Thank you for explaining... It helps a LOT!

X3M wrote:
It is for the Texas instruments.
First part is (1/8)^x, the formula that is used.
Second part is x, thus which variable changes.
Third part is 1, the first value for x.
Fourth part is ∞, the last value for x.

Okay at least my understanding of Math Formulas is correct. That much I understood. What I was wondering about is how do you count until "infinity"!

X3M wrote:
The calculator simply does:
(1/8)^1 + (1/8)^2 + (1/8)^3 + ... (1/8)^∞
Which results in 1/7.
So, when a player has to roll a 1 on the d8, the chance is 1/8.
But if the player is allowed to re-roll for more hits after a hit. The average result is 1/7. And I balance combat on averages.

Hmm... Yeah well this is how I forget to "compute to infinity"! You may have a nice Calculator that does that. But I don't remember how to do so manually. Do you know how to compute this manually??? This kind of MATH, I have not used for YEARS!!!

X3M wrote:
I was thinking about it. Eventually I settled with the last post about having the players roll extra dice for each hit. But since there can be 1, 2 or 3 hits due to different accuracies. The worst accuracy is rolled first.

Well indeed 1/8 is the lowest amount. But 1/8^2 = is 1/512 which is a fraction of better than 1/8. Or 64/512 + 1/512 = 65/512. 1/8 = 0.125 and 65/512 = 0.12695... How do you reflect this in terms of DICE??? Like I get the MATH, you are saying each subsequent hit is better by a smaller margin and when the sum is computed to infinity you get 1/7 = 0.14285.

X3M wrote:
Frankly, I am not sure what method is best yet. And perhaps I really should do this per card from the moment that the attribute comes into play.
A player will have no more than 3 different accuracies if I design that way. So 3 re-roll stacks if you will.

You've got me... I have NO CLUE how to reflect this SUM into a series of dice rolls. In MY case, I simply do PERCENTAGES over an 8-sided die. And it's 1/5 on the lowest (so 20%) and 1/1 at the highest (so 100%). That's what I have used. But it doesn't take into account "fractional increases" like you have determined with the "chaining" effect...

MY dice for accuracy looks like this:

1/8 = 1/5 = 20%
2/8 = 1/4 = 25%
3/8 = 2/5 = 40%
4/8 = 1/2 = 50%
5/8 = 3/5 = 60%
6/8 = 3/4 = 75%
7/8 = 4/5 = 80%
8/8 = 1/1 = 100%

That's what I am using. Perhaps for "chaining" whatever ACCURACY you determine, you can offer the NEXT 2-possible accuracies. While I'm not telling you to use my die (it's okay for me)... Let's say you roll a STANDARD D8... And you roll a:

3 = 1/3 = 33% accuracy.

Then you add two (2) more accuracies:

4 = 1/4 = 25% and 5 = 1/5 = 20%.

Your BEST roll would be 100% = 1/1. This is just using a STANDARD D8. And you need to roll LESS than a "7" to be able to "chain". So if you roll a "7" or "8" there is NO "chaining" or "exploding". Consider this a sort of "penalty" (the chaining does NOT occur).

So a "6" ROLL gives you: 1/6, 1/7 and 1/8. The integer math is STILL TOUGH! TBH. But maybe this IDEA ... Might give you some kind of "inspiration" or other ideas that may give you a solution... I know with the calculator some computations are easier to do (especially integer division by "7")... This is just an IDEA to show you an "example" of HOW you could get this to work...

Cheers @X3M!

Note #1: Using the STANDARD D8 ... You get "1" = 1/1 = 100% and then the NEXT two are "2" = 1/2 = 50% and "3" = 1/3 = 33%... This will work for MOST rolls... You can ALSO CHANGE the minimum roll from "6" to "4"! So it means at WORST you need to divide by "6" = 1/4 + 1/5 + 1/6.

That would be for CHAINING...

My thoughts on EXPLODING are something like you roll STANDARD 2D8s and get two (2) values. You combine those two for the "exploding-factor". Let's say I roll a "2" and a "6" ... The RULE could be SIMPLE: Highest divide by Lowest.

So you would get: 6/2 = 3 Accuracy... Because it is EXPLODING! So IMPROVED accuracy of the effect.

That would be for EXPLODING...

Note #2: You may want to SIMPLIFY things and use STANDARD D6s ONLY! D6s are easier for computation because of "7"... How would this IMPACT CHAINING = need a minimum of "4" to chain on a D6 roll. And EXPLODING is simpler since there is no more "7" to Factor in... Only a "6" which divides well into "1, 2, 3, 4 and 6". "5" can be a bit tricky but still more DO-ABLE!

Anyhow this is what I came up with... You'll probably think it's too simple.

Not about your kind of MATH only SIMPLE Integer Math...

Note #3: With the EXPLODING 2D6s (Standard) ... a "1" guarantees simplest computation "divided by 1": Worst case = 1/1 = 1, best case = 6/1 = 6. Some real BAD-ASS explosion!!!

So WORST case = 1/1, 2/2, 3/3, 4/4, 5/5 and 6/6 = 1 Accuracy (for exploding). Everything ELSE is HIGHER and better in terms of accuracy... So WORST case = "1"... Which mean that EXPLODING attribute/ability means 100%+... So a minimum of 100% accuracy + extra factor (as determined by simple Integer Math).

BEST case = 6/1 = 6 Accuracy (real good for the player, bad for his opponent).

Again most of the Integer Math is EASY to handle... Feel free to let me know if any of this makes sense and could be usable in your design! Cheers @X3M.

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Mon, 04/25/2022 - 14:10
#225
questccg
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Also concerning "Chaining"...

If you use a STANDARD D6 with a cap/limit of "4" ... Rolling a "5" or "6" could indicate a MISS in terms of the attack.

This would means that rolling:

4 = 1/4 = 25%
5 = 1/5 = 20%
6 = 1/6 = 17%

This means that ACCEPTABLE die rolls are from "1" to "4", "5 & 6" = MISS. This is to OFFSET the fact that you can ROLL higher than 100% using this method of CHAINING. How?

Take a look at this roll:

1 = 1/1 = 100%
2 = 1/2 = 50%
3 = 1/3 = 33%

That's over 100%... So rolling a "1" is the MOST desirable roll with CHAINING.

Again "5" and "6" could be misses something to do with poor targeting. You may want to consider this as the benefit of CHAINING starts from "1" and could only go to "4"...

This is another way to cap a bit of a LOSS in terms of accuracies.

Cheers!

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Mon, 04/25/2022 - 18:49
#226
X3M
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How to calculate manually

It is indeed 1/8 + 1/64 + 1/512 etc.
With that, you only need like 6 to add up to get the idea of where it ends.

4/8 is a bit tougher. But you can see it as 1/2.
1/2 +1/4 +1/8 etc. Results in 1.

Now, variations that I know of are:
The first projectile is 8/8.
Then another projectile will have this attribute.

So a 8/8 and a 4/8 with explosive. Results in 1 + 1.

There can be limits too
The explosive is only for 1 more.
A 4/8 will result in 4/8+ 2/8 = 6/8
6/8 is the weight. But the number of hits can be 0 (4/8 chance), 1 (2/8 chance) or 2 (2/8 chance)

Now, if you look at the chances.
0 x 4/8 = 0
1 x 2/8 = 2/8
2 x 2/8 = 4/8
And add that up, we get 6/8 again.

But now that I got the faction theme's fixed. I should start designing.

Still looking at the defences though. Perhaps only 6. With 1 set of 3 removed, while the walls are added. Or perhaps I should have factions without walls. Simply very cheap defences :D

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Mon, 04/25/2022 - 20:05
#227
questccg
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Thank you for sharing...

X3M wrote:
Or perhaps I should have factions without walls. Simply very cheap defenses :D

Hmm... I have removed the NEED to "attack" buildings. So I don't have any purpose for "walls" either. Sure they could "BLOCK" Ground Troops from being able to "attack" buildings ... but I removed this from my version...

But you've made me realize, I *might* want to use the EXPLODING feature when you "build" the "Nuclear Silo" which allows the use of Tactical Nukes with the 2D6s method (as I described). That could be cool. You need to "unlock" the potential 6x Accuracy Modifier and a Nuke would do 50 DMG. So potentially 300 DMG...

Honestly I don't know what this could DESTROY! Seems like OVERKILL... But it's VERY COOL too! An AWESOME attack of 300 DMG destroys like everything on the Ground!!! Hehehe.

The CHAINING feature... I'm not sure. Maybe I can use my "Fragmentation" to be "chaining" (because it is like multiple attacks too). Does that make any sense?! I would CHANGE to 1D6 with the THREE (3) values (as I explained in the comment above). IDK... Just thinking how that could work with my version.

That would increment my dice count from 4 (1d8 Tactical Readiness, 3d8 Accuracy) to 6 (add 2d6 for exploding and chaining). That's still very REASONABLE in terms of die count.

Also I have been thinking of having "Engineers" but I'm not sure what they would DO??? Maybe you have some ideas too!?

Note #1: After some quick thinking, I'm thinking about HOW to use the "chaining" weapon: Roll 1D6 ... 1/x + 1/(x + 1) + 1/(x + 2).

So if you ROLL a "6" you get: 1/6 + 1/7 + 1/8.

Deal ONE (1) squadron "3x" DMG = "Fragmentation".

Deal THREE (3) squadrons "1x" DMG = "Spread" (3 distinct Units).

I've got to think about this some more...

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Mon, 04/25/2022 - 21:38
#228
questccg
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You got me thinking some more... Which is absolutely DANGEROUS!

So I know that I was saying that "Fragmentation" would be like more hits on the SAME "squadron" using the same formula and I thought: "Why don't I just COMPUTE the outcomes for all 6 values???"

The formula was: (1/x + 1/(x + 1) + 1/(x + 2))

And so I DID exactly this and this is what I come to as a "custom" D6 (for this Accuracy):

1.5 (3/2), 1.0 (1/1), 0.75 (3/4), 0.66 (2/3), 0.5 (1/2) and 0.4 (2/5).

So this would mean that my "custom" D6 would look like:

Face 1 = 3/2
Face 2 = 1/1
Face 3 = 3/4
Face 4 = 2/3
Face 5 = 1/2
Face 6 = 2/5

The AMAZING thing is that the FORMULA is "abstracted" and all you need to do is ROLL 1D6 (Custom) with these values and apply the "Accuracy" as the "Fragmentation" die. SIMPLE enough!

Holly crap @X3M ... Now you've started to INFECT ME ... And I'm thinking like a Zergling now! Hahaha! Thanks for pitching in a helping me too!

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Tue, 04/26/2022 - 00:22
#229
questccg
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More on the 2nd type of dice formula ("Spread")

I did an interesting exercise with the "Spread" formulation. Again with the GOAL to make the MATH easier ... I computed the AVERAGE for EACH attack for the three (3) units that would be targeted. Again similar to the previous exercise with a bit of "approximation" too.

The formula was: 1/x, 2/(x + 1), 3/(x + 2)

Here's what I came up with the 2nd "custom" D6 (again for Accuracy):

1.0 (1/1), 0.67 (2/3), 0.5 (1/2), 0.4 (2/5), 0.33 (1/3), 0.25 (1/4).

So this would mean that my 2nd "custom" D6 would look like:

Face 1 = 1/1
Face 2 = 2/3
Face 3 = 1/2
Face 4 = 2/5
Face 5 = 1/3
Face 6 = 1/4

The difference with this abstraction is that whatever you ROLL you do the same DAMAGE to the three (3) squadrons. So if you ROLL a "1", your "Accuracy" is "1" for all three (3) squadrons. So that amounts to TRIPLE the DAMAGE!!! That's the BEST roll... In the WORST case, you get "1/4" which means 25% for each squadron which is significantly LESS.

Again thanks to @X3M for encouraging me to think about the MATH some more and figure out ways to make it SIMPLE for the players but have all kinds of MATH OLYMPICS to figure out what goes on the CUSTOM dice!

This is some COOL SH!T (IMHO)!!! It took me a while to figure out the 2nd dice because it needed to be AVERAGED by "3" Squadrons. And I had also done the computation wrong initially.

But now it all looks good and I'm going to be ready to purchase my CUSTOM dice! Of course I need to DESIGN the dice first... Will work on that this week.

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Tue, 04/26/2022 - 00:53
#230
questccg
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A bit of a comparison between both Accuracies

I just want to be sure everything is "nice" and "works" as intended.

So let's look a the "Fragmentation" die:

The formula was: (1/x + 1/(x + 1) + 1/(x + 2))

1.5 (3/2), 1.0 (1/1), 0.75 (3/4), 0.66 (2/3), 0.5 (1/2) and 0.4 (2/5).

The GOAL of this dice is to simulate MULTIPLE hits using an fragmenting device such as a Grenade or Mine or IED or Molotov Cocktail.

The highest value is 1.5x in terms of the "Accuracy" of the exploding device. This is in the most favorable outcome with multiple hits of such devices... In the worst case, the device produces 40% Accuracy, which is still non-negligible due to it's HIGH IMPACT blast/delivery.

If you compare this to the "custom" 3D8s for normal "Accuracy" you see 0.2 (1/5) on the lower-end of the OTHER weapons. So there is a significant boost between 20% and 40% (Double with the Fragmentation). On the highest value we see only 1.0x which means 100% accuracy compare the 150% of the Fragmentation device...

So naturally I need to figure out the COST ratio because clearly the "Fragmentation" devices will cost a bit more than the standard Assault Rifles or Concussion related weapons (using the 3D8s as the "standard" method of combat/accuracy).

Now let's look at the "Spread" die:

The formula was: 1/x, 2/(x + 1), 3/(x + 2)

1.0 (1/1), 0.67 (2/3), 0.5 (1/2), 0.4 (2/5), 0.33 (1/3), 0.25 (1/4).

The KEY with this die is that it TARGETS ALL THREE (3) Units in a squadron. The value are used for ALL three (3) units (same value). So if we look at the highest possible value, we see 1.0. But the important part to remember is that it is 100% across "3" units. So in essence it's more like 300%.

On the lower end we see 0.25 (or 25%) this is lower than the "Fragmentation" die which on the lowest end has 0.4 (or 40%). 40% is for one (1) unit. If you compute the 3x units for 25% each ... That's like 75%. It is significantly HIGHER because three units are being targeted by the "spreading" nature of the weapon. This category is comprise of Heavy Machine Guns ... which deal a high amount of rounds to the opponent.

I would argue that this all makes sense and works for both TARGETED attack using "Fragmentation" Devices and a bit CHAOTIC attacks using the "Spread" of Heavy Gunnery.

If you compare this "Spread" to the custom 3D8s for normal "Accuracy" you see that 0.2 (or 20%) on the low end and we have 0.25 (or 25%) so it is very proximate to the standard "Accuracy" with the exception that it deals this extra bit of DAMAGE to multiple units.

It's not perfect here... One could argue that the SPREAD should be LESS than the normal attack due to the nature of the weapon (to target multiple units with one attack)... I'm not @X3M and can't compute PERFECT ratios... I'm trying my best to all make it work. Obviously there is a minor flaw here... But HEY! I'm trying! (LOL)

The other thing that I want to point out is that the 3D8s are "8-sided dice". Where as the custom "D6s" are "6-sided dice". I wanted different size dice to ensure there is no "confusion" between which dice should be used at what time (given the unit in play/battle).

I did a lot of MATH today... With APPROXIMATIONS and AVERAGES to get what to me feels like more "weighted" types of attacks to BOOST the intricacies of the various types of weapons!

Cheers all...

Note #1: Again the argument about SPREAD versus CONCUSSION is that the weapon is basically much stronger than your average Assault Rifle. So one could argue that a Heavy Machine Gun pumps out more FIREPOWER even to the primary target... Plus with the possibility to "spread-out" the attacks towards the field of units (including lite motorized units too) ... It is much more effective in combat.

You could easily find such a weapon MOUNTED on a Jeep or Hummer (for example).

These are probably not carried by Soldiers due to the heavy weight of ammunition and the weapon itself. So NO this is not a Trooper weapon. Will be present on various vehicles that could lend more to be able to travel and carry more bullets required by this nature of a weapon.

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Tue, 04/26/2022 - 06:56
#231
questccg
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Another 3rd dice set ("Exploding")

This was a bit of a calculated effort and then sort of *tweaking* the result and massaging a bit the results to get the "Exploding" formulation. Same GOAL is to make the MATH easier...

There formula turned out to be: (x / 2)

Here's what I came up with the 3rd "custom" D6 (again for Accuracy):

1/2 (0.5), 1/1 (1.0), 3/2 (1.5), 2/1 (2.0), 5/2 (2.5), 3/1 (3.0).

So this would mean that my 3rd "custom" D6 would look like:

Face 1 = 1/2
Face 2 = 1/1
Face 3 = 3/2
Face 4 = 2/1
Face 5 = 5/2
Face 6 = 3/1

Again this is the ONLY dice that needs to be rolled to compute the "Exploding" effect of Rockets and Missiles. The damage is applied to only one (1) squadron and the WORST case is 50% Accuracy. And the BEST roll is 300%. This set is a bit different in that I made the numbers work "more smoothly".

The first 2 Faces are SUB-PAR performances and the 4 other Faces are BETTER targeting resulting in more damage being dealt.

The other way of looking at is 3/1 = 300% or 3x 100% which means 3 Missiles Launched (as opposed to 1 doing 300%). With various efficiencies, you get 1.5 and 2.5 which as semi-effective targeting. This is important when dealing with Jet Fighters and so forth...

This all seems to be good and will allow me to ADD yet another CUSTOM dice! That will make THREE (3) "custom" dice. Again I will work on these custom dice during this week.

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Tue, 04/26/2022 - 06:56
#232
X3M
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Engineers, Deviators, Monks (not the card game)

I never touched those.

I have looked into taking over permanently and temporary.

My proto-type board game could allow temporary take overs. But the fairness doesn't really include much advantages.
And to have a squad with this function would be more of a waste. So in my Dune 2(000) variant, I always had the Deviators simply shoot a rocket that would create a gas cloud like their infantry counterparts in EbfD.
And Engineers, I didn't even look into them. To clumsy and inlogic for my game.

But maybe you can make use of it. And think of something for your own game. At least on how the balance should be.

Temporary Takeover
Deviators fall in this category.

If the takeover attack "removes" the remaining health. The unit is taken over for that particular round.
What does a player take over?
-The remaining health.
-The damage the unit can do.
-A total value??

The answer is kinda complex.
The total value is only an indication of how usefull the unit will be. This can be seen through the damage the unit can do. A support unit can easily be turned if you will. In a sense, I would say that half of the value of the unit is the body part. Not looking at how big this part is.
The other half is the weapon part.
When this unit is attacked, it is the body part that is attacked. With killing it, the weapon part is gone. But with a takeover, the weapon part is yours.
I see a factor 2 here.

Now for the remaining health. This too is for the takeover. I see another factor 2 here.

A total factor of 4 on the weapon that is used for the takeover.
So, if a Deviator costs 750. Let's say the weapon is a 600 as if the Deviator is a support unit. Then the effective weapon is only 150. In the case of my proto-type game, that would mean, either one of the complete infantry units. Or a damaged tier 2 or 3 units. If the tier is higher, the unit is very damaged. The goal, or tier 3 unit, average cost is 300. See how the deviator is less effective while making things fair?
Then again, 300 is dissabled and used on another 300. In terms of equal values after corrections. Thus not including RPS mechanics.

Quote:
A smart player will only take over heavily damaged units that have a strong weapon and accidentally stand next to the perfect target.

It is too rare for comfort.

Permanent Takeover
The Engineer and the Monk fall in this category.

The factor depends on the health/damage factor.
We already had 4.
The health/damage factor in my proto-type game is 3. Thus I figured the total is 12.

Now, if an engineer would cost 500. And the infantry body is worth 50. Then we have 450 remaining. The value used for the damage is only 37.5. This also explains why an engineer is a melee unit.
In my game, the value is divided by 0.6 again.

***

Counter factors

Specialized attacks can have a factor of 0.5 or 0.25 in my proto-type game. And thus making the weapons cheaper. However, you need to specifically target certain units or structures. It only works well in an all out game. But missions are often imbalanced with this.

Either way, I have 2 basic sets of body attributes.
- Units/Structures
- Biological/Mechanical (oh, so that was the word I was looking for)

An engineer would only be able to take over Mechanical Structures. Kinda unfair if you think about it. If there aren't many zerg buildings around...yet. But hey, we got wooden fences!

Either way, a division by 0.25 makes the value 4 times higher. And we got 250 on our hands. If the engineer can do this much damage and "finish" a building. The building is yours.

***

The Engineer is still alive.
Ok, so, in my proto-type game. The Engineer is still alive after taking over a building. Just like the monk.

But if I turn the Engineer into a sacrifice, just like in the C&C games. Another factor can be added. Again the health/damage factor. Now the value is 750. That is a good value. And it is entirely possible for the engineer to take over a tier 5 building that has not been damaged yet.

Some Engineers also can repair buildings. If they are used as a sacrifice again. The value for both options is 500. So a tier 3 building with full health. Or your own tier 4 building BACK to full health.

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Tue, 04/26/2022 - 07:17
#233
questccg
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Your thoughts are a bit different than mine...

I was more thinking like Half-Life Team-Fortress, the MEDIC role. Or like in World of Warcraft where you have HEALERS than keep reviving the TANKS in the melee role.

So MY version of the Engineer would be a Ground Support Unit that could REPAIR Motorized Ground Units (Vehicles)...

Why? Because I think most players will find use for Ground Troops (Soldiers) and Aerial Support (like Bombers and Jet Fighters) but the "Ground Vehicles" are a bit LEFT-OUT (sorta). I see them as a 3rd Class of units being used LESS FREQUENTLY...

And so I was thinking maybe Engineers could be used to REPAIR vehicles that get damaged during a round of attacks.

Obviously I'm not 100% sure how to handle this... These are my general thoughts about the Engineers but I've got more thinking to do. Because I'm not sure how to handle the role in the REPAIR method nor in how to handle the cards and chips associated with the Engineers.

This may require more reflection on the Tiers and which classes are fit for the Engineering role. Not sure about this TBH.

What do you think about this REPAIR philosophy??? ONLY for Motorized Ground Unit (Vehicles). Could be good against Mines, IEDs... Again let me know what you think about this DIRECTION...

Cheers @X3M!

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Tue, 04/26/2022 - 18:07
#234
X3M
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No repairs in my card game

While I have healers and repair units in my board game. My card game works with a threshold. Maybe I can have some units providing a shield as if they are healing on the job.

In my proto-type board game. Healing and repairing happens after or during a battle.

Heal is on biological units.
Repair is on mechanical units.
Enginering is on mechanical structures.
Transfusion (zerg queen) is on biological structures.
Although, they got this for biological only, so they double up.

Thus these effects are 25% of the weight factor.

Further, if I choose to have them heal or repair my own units/structures. I could go for a melee approach here. Adding another factor 60%.

My medics and etc. are relatively cheap in my game. But mostly useless anyway. You have 1 or 2 that deal with only with the injured one.
So, something happened during the designs of my friends. They started prefering something that could heal over great distance.

***

To make a story shorter. In my card game, healers and etc. would be more of a shield that won't die. But I need to be carefull that they don't become to powerfull.

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Wed, 04/27/2022 - 19:11
#235
questccg
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I just invested $30 CAD in prototyping!

I spend $10 CAD for cheap Dollar Store Playing Cards. Cheaper than buying Magic cards: $1.25 per pack of 58 cards. Next I went to visit another store that sells supplies for cards (Sleeves, Boxes, Containers, Sheets) and bought a bunch of Card Sleeve Packs of 100 sleeves each for about $20 CAD!

I'll see now how I get the cards arranged and work on make the various cards to work with the game.

I will also see if I can FINALIZE those "Custom" D6s I spoke of in an earlier comment. Going to take a lot of cards especially if I feel like some cards will require more than 12 cards. With 4-Players that means only "3" cards per player. That's just too low TBH.

That part needs a RE-THINK. Definitely need more cards for 4-Player games.

I'll let you know how things move forwards. I've got to work on the prototype, the dice and card templates (for the prototype anyhow)!

Cheers.

Note #1: By my estimates, I NEED two (2) more packs of cards for the prototype. I currently bought four (4) Decks and I believe that I need six (6) of them. Going to visit the dollar store again and see IF I can get the extra missing Decks... I mean if your Privates only have four (4) cards per player... That's just not enough. Like I said, six (6) is better knowing that a player may have more and another less (this is a Deck-Builder) so... I need to ensure it works OK with 4-Players too.

Note #2: In addition, I can put "restrictions" on certain cards like for example the use of "Tactical Nukes" is only possible when a player builds the "Nuclear Silos"... That enables the usage of nuclear technology. Or the "Engineering Bay" makes for having Engineers in the field who can repair damaged (or destroyed) motorized vehicles...

However a player could BUY all of the more rare cards EVEN if they cannot use them to their full potential immediately... That could be a VIABLE strategy too! Choke the enemy from the most dangerous cards... Granted it is a DIFFICULT thing to do, because "Generals" cost significantly higher to recruit than "Privates"...

But it could put one player at an advantage over the others. I don't want to ruin card synergy and the various choices available to the players. I want the players to ADAPT to the play-styles of the other players. If one is trying to hog the "rare" roles, well then the opponents should also jump on the band-wagon and follow suit (for example).

Note #3: There is very much this concept of understanding what the opponent is planning on doing and performing a "counter" to ensure that their plans don't necessarily go "exactly" as planned. So there could be some "re-active" play to ensure that players are not "choked" and there also needs to be more availability of some cards to ensure that each player can get their fair share of cards too...

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Wed, 04/27/2022 - 23:41
#236
questccg
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More thoughts on "strategy"

I've been thinking following the "choking" method of buying the most rare cards from the table, I also got the idea of building a small "squadron" with some soldiers and SAVE UP on credits ... So as not to disclose your battle strategy right away... Obviously it may take several turns to pump out the army ... But still the "concept" of saving credits may allow a bit of a surprise attack rather than gradually building up an army to attack.

Not sure about this "method of play" but I definitely think this could be something to TRY. I will definitely make this as one of my playtests even IF I will know both player's strategy, I will see if this GATHERING followed by ATTACKING works and is a way of making a SURPRISE attack. Not entirely but at least partially.

This also makes me WONDER if BOTH players use this method, how/who will be the first one to attempt to LAUNCH an attack but be thwarted by his opponent... Going first in this sense is BAD (because you show your opponent how you will engage in battle). And this gives the opponent the chance to RESPOND with a balance of STRONGER units to counter the onslaught.

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Fri, 04/29/2022 - 04:38
#237
X3M
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similar

The players in my card game would be building up a lot of construction yards if given the chance. Then a lot of a particular production building that they need, in order to produce the unit they want to have. At that point, the opponent will know that a lot of something is coming. A particular armor type, if you will. And can counter this by placing a lot that would at least attack the correct armor type.

It will be faction dependend.

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Sat, 04/30/2022 - 01:25
#238
X3M
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Things some designers forget

A faction needs to have a solution to it's own weaponry as well.

The blue faction will be having mines. These can be sweeped.
There is 1 particular game that I always play. And if there is civil war, there are no mines to be placed. Because all the demining units are on the other faction.

I have 2 simple solutions:

1. Instead of having every faction a demining.
The very first factionless card is added. The mine sweeper. And it can be added to any unit. :)

But from that point onwards, you need to keep building those units with the sweeping ability.
And the mines that are sweeped. Actually need to be designed with a charging attribute. So they are removed before exploding.

2. The first set of mines are slightly less effective. But explode right away... and ehm. They all explode if they "defend" themselves.

***

As a new rule...Which is more or less copied from my proto-type wargame.
Units that use the charging mechanic. Can retreat.

This means that I could use charging on a sweeper card. Making it more effective. But also, that the cards can retreat at this point. So if there aren't enough for the sweeping. And you know this because the dice have been rolled. Then the mines can't take them with them either.

Now, mines with a charge of 1 will still be able to cancel too.
It looks like that the blue faction even has its first development chain in store.

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Sat, 04/30/2022 - 17:58
#239
questccg
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I have a third (3rd) solution for you...

An "Instant" Card which is a called "De-mine". Play it once to "de-mine" all the mines in play (for one player). Of course a deck could have two (2) or three (3) of the "Instant" Cards and a player can use them when they feel like it suits them (whenever that may be).

Again this is a 3rd solution, but I doubt it is the solution that you will adopt. I'm just presenting it as another "alternative".

Something else to think about... Another approach!

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Sat, 04/30/2022 - 18:34
#240
X3M
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questccg wrote:An "Instant"

questccg wrote:
An "Instant" Card which is a called "De-mine". Play it once to "de-mine" all the mines in play (for one player). Of course a deck could have two (2) or three (3) of the "Instant" Cards and a player can use them when they feel like it suits them (whenever that may be).

Again this is a 3rd solution, but I doubt it is the solution that you will adopt. I'm just presenting it as another "alternative".

Something else to think about... Another approach!

Funny thing is... it is possible. But a player pays resources.
We got equips weaponry. Which is an addition to any card.

But we also got instants. Which is like the nuke. You pay for 1 misslile, A LOT. Then your resources and the enemy are gone. Same goes for the majority of mines.

Not all if the player doesn't have enough resources.

And.... the accuracy if it exists, plays a big part of it to be effective.

Which brings me to the next question.

***

In my proto-type game and my "public" game. I had accuracy. But also a roll for damage.

My card game only has a roll for accuracy.

Which means that a maximum accuracy always does a fixed set of damage.

In my other 2 games. It was still a random number for everything.

The question is, should I think of something to make every weapon "random". Even if the accuracy is 100%?

How to do that?

Because 8/8 weapons always do 100% damage.

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