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Build the Rules fighting game

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Midnight_Carnival
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This one is very rudimentary and a bit like my idea for the space blaster board game, just something I'm throwing around.

I had an idea for a tile-placing combat game similar to my dinosaur one only there would be differences.

The object is to capture the enemy castle or base or whatever square. You'd have fewer (perhpas only one) "hero" type pieces you could summon or ressurect (you couldn't bring them back in the dinosaur game) you'd be able to get aditional skills and items for them so that they'd become more powerful as with many card-collecting games.

The difference with my game is the tiles.
You place tiles and play on them, in this game pieces can not move over the unclaimed territories so you have to link up with someone's tiles in order to reach them. The tiles represent different territories and the rules for that territory are determined by the type of tile the player puts down as well as by customisations the player adds.
I'm not sure whether the customisations would be cards dealt from a deck as with upgrades for the heroes or if they would be different sorts of "themes" you could choose from.
Anyway, the rules govern how pieces entering that territory can gather resources/energy as well as how combat is conducted on the territory.

I'm not sure but I think that there would either be a finite number of upgrades to the rules you could place on each territory or there would be a finite number which could be placed per turn. The first option makes for faster but more limited game play (I think) while the second can make for very complicated games but there will always be the option to cricumvent or move over the more "difficult" squares and attack the territories the player didn't work on so much while they were building their "impregnable fortress of doom" territory.

Another idea I'm playing with is that the heroes would have an elemental or other alignment, the type of tile placed as well as the modifications added to the rules would favor certian alignments.

As I see it the game is in theory simple with not that much to it and the physical plaing area would be small - there is not much of an advantage to building a huge mass of territories which never link up. The game is in danger of becoming byzantine and overly complex so that it would only be enjoyed by teams of lawyers who'd play it in court.
thoughts on how to keep it simple and fast as well as fun to play are most welcome.

Midnight_Carnival
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Going East

The suggestion came from home that I should make the tiles hexagonal and perhaps the board also hexagonal with the players starting in each corner. It sounds a bit like that Settlers of Cattan to me, and I'm not sure I want a board, I was thinking of playing it on the tiles placed, but the hexagonal element might make it more interesting.

The other idea I came up with was to base everything in the game on the 5 Chinese elements: fire, earth, metal, water, wood so that the basic tiles would be one of these, all the conditions you can place on the tile would represent one of the elements. The heroes would each have an elemental alignment and each item or spell which they can acquire would be an element. For example: bow, staff and healing magic = wood. Sword, armor = metal. Gun, fire magic = fire. And the characters might be differently effected for example a wood hero could use something fire aspected but only if he/she suffered damage while using it, while another element might lower defense, etc...

The tiles would work (more or less) as follows:

Earth:
+earth = mountain
+metal = dungeon
+water = swamp
+wood = forest
+fire = town

Metal:
+metal = desert
+water = sewer
+wood = fortress
+fire = factory
+earth = arena

Water:
+water = ocean
+wood = floating city
+fire = volcanic island
+earth = island
+metal = under sea city

Wood:
+wood = ????
+fire = ash wastes
+earth = temple
+metal = ????
+water = ????

Fire:
+fire = inferno
+earth = lava flow
+metal = ????
+water = geyser
+wood = ????

Anyway, I suspect I'd need to be a lv. 40 Feng Shui master to work out all the details of this and it's ambitious to say the least, not to mention how I may annoy practitioners of Chinese traditional medicine... but I thought it would be more interesting than western elements.
You can imagine how the basic rules for each tile would be different: so for example a town (earth+fire) might ban all weapons and heroes might automatically recover health while there, you may need to use metal and test for intelligence to gain energy. An arena (metal+earth) would be totally different. Any heroes can fight and the winner gains a lot of energy, death may not be possible unless specific criteria are met, but the losing hero in a combat would be reduced to 1hp and the winner may loot any items.

I'd welcome any feedback on my ideas.

X3M
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It seems you are already

It seems you are already trying to combine the elements. You should know that with these 5, you have one element creating/overacting, destroying or insulting another element.

https://fiveelementsconstellations.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/1024px-fi...

This might seem complicated at first. But try to think of situations where a creation happens. Destruction is easy as well.
I still don't understand what they mean with overacting or insulting, since I once discarded these 5 elements for a game and went with the 5 from Naruto. Perhaps you might figure it out a good understanding.

Midnight_Carnival
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not as such

I wasn't exactly trying to 'combine them', more like add a condition to the tile, so an earth tile with a fire condition would be a town, the earth element dominates and all earth tiles will work in 1 basic way but the fire condition makes it follow the town rules as opposed to the mountian, forest, etc rules.

I won't pretend to understand what I read, I was just fishing for useful stuff I could improve my game with, but I didn't get the elements 'fighting', rather what I took from it was that rather than canceling eachother out, the elements meet to create new things and it forms a cycle, so if one element effects another it moves the cycle along. Like using fire on earth and getting metal (refining process). Going the other way leads to competition, disharmony and destruction. Although, using earth on fire giving you wood doesn't sound bad to me at all - like I said, I won't pretend to understand it.

I ignored such things in my game because I wanted to make one which was fun to play, not one which would bring about balance between yin and yang forces. ;)

X3M
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Well, even regarding

Well, even regarding creation. It doesn't mean you can combine them,.. really. Not in the way you do. But that is my oppinion.

I watched your list, it often makes no sense to me.
Metal + metal = Desert.
For all I know, Desert is dried (by heat) land. Thus a fire + earth for this one?

Metal on top of Metal, I rather would call this a mine or steel factory.

I understand if you want certain locations to give bonusses to the atributes that players carry.
But are you sure you want a new location with every combination?
Perhaps Earth + Earth should remain Earth. Like 0,5 red + 0,5 red = red.
And you have only one combination of each. No need to do Earth + Water and then Water + Earth?

But than again, stacking is an option. But...

Before I continiu. I hope others pick up on this, and give their oppinion. Since making combinations of items is subjected to how players feel about things.

Back to but...
You could also try the other way around. Thinking of locations that you want to use. Then add the elements. Instead of thinking of one location for each combination, you might give "points". And when the list is done, each element has the same ammount of total points.

Meaning that water is distributed more often than metal. Water element effects are weaker on most location, but are more often. While the one and only metal location will give a huge bonus.

You might get beaches, swamps and rivers. Each another distribution of water and earth AND wood.

Midnight_Carnival
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hmmm...

My whole idea was that it was a tile placing and then upgrading game so that there wouldn't be a board, even a random one until players construct it. The idea of a randomly generated board also doesn't hold much apeal to me (not because I don't like random stuff) because I want the playing field to represent an environment but also a system constructed by the players, the object is to adapt to the system constructed by the other players and use it against them. So the notion of uneven distrubution could work if we are talking about a set contianing say 11 water base tiles and only 4 metal base tiles - I'm not sure if I want to implement that, but I'll consider it.

As I said before, I am not trying to combine elements, rather seeing each element as not only an element (the base tile) but also a force - metal is associated with the west and with dryness, it manifests in the body in the lungs, a metal force applied to an already not so life sustaing metal environment gives you a place of minerals in which no life can grow = desert. I haven't applied the same logic to all my combinations (or applications of conditions) - for the purposes of my game I have metal base tiles as artificial environments which you can go into but you probalby can't live in. Getting energy from metal would require intelligence normall because you have to operate the mechanism of the metal environment (exception being the arena were combat is the 'mechanism')

I'm thinking of adding the possiblity of further tile conditions but don't want it to become too complex. In terms of the items and spells you can use to upgrade your heroes, a pistol for example might be 5 fire, 5 metal - while a magic sword could be 3 water - 6 metal, etc... A water hero might suffer a penalty to attack while using the metal and fire pistol because the water force would act on the fire element making it less effective but would suffer no penalty from using the sword because its metal is not effected by the water. However if a water hero tried to cast a wood, an earth or a metal spell there might be effects which using a wood, and earth or a metal weapon wouldn't cause.

I also wish other people would take an itnerest!
Thanks for your feedback and don't be affraid to suggest new/alterntative tile and condition combinations, I may not use them all but I'd be greatful to you.

X3M
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Just thinking ahead

In advance, sorry for the long post.

***

Some how I have the feeling that you didn't plan the big picture yet. Nor do you know what options are open.

I tried to think from start to end for the design, while you have gaps. Sometimes setting the proper goals might change a lot to a game later on. Better to answer them now before it is too late?

***

So if the board is a random design by players themselves. How is the board build?

- Ammount of players?
- Ammount of maximum tiles for your random board? (shape of the board and tiles has influence on this)
- If players indeed place a tile, is this random as well? Or has each player the same ammount of tiles to place?
- Shape of the tiles?
- Shape of the board?
- Will you be pinning down the tiles? Or will they be placed like puzzle shapes? Or will they be placed in "gaps"?

Currently you are searching for 5x5=25 combinations of tiles. If you want them all, 25 is the minimum that you need? Could a game end if only like 12 are placed?

***

Some idea's for the board. If you have a clear goal, you can have a better picture in your head of how the art would look like during game play. The theme will be clearer to yourself (and others) and more, but certainly better suggestions might arise.

-->Important notice: you can place square tiles as if the board is a hexagon. Or even have a random shape of tiles, but still have a nice looking board:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0b/Fed_square_tiles.jpg
The purple ones are the tiles, the rest are helping lines:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1d/P2_dual.png/32...
Another example:
https://inglenooktile.files.wordpress.com/2008/07/house-tile-pinwheel.jpg
If using the same design, you can click them together:
http://www.iread.it/lz/images/hex2t3sq.gif

***

Example thinking of a board:

The board is going to be a slightly rectangle shape, we keep the tiles squared for easy storage and placement. But they will be placed to have hexagon pathways. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0b/Fed_square_tiles.jpg
The corners and sides of the tiles have dents (6 are needed for each tile), so they can be placed on a board with pins. Yet the pins will not go through the tiles. This saves art.

We have 2 to 6 players possible.

Each player is going to have a fair share ammount of tiles. The total ammount is 60 (6 x 10, 5 x 12, 4 x 15, 3 x 20 or 2 x 30).

With the shape of the board and placement of tiles in mind. We have a length of 8 and a width of 7 to 8.
So your rows look like 7-8-7-8-7-8-7-8.

We want the number of different tiles also fairly distributed among the 60.
The simplest configuration would be:
Steel (with steel)
Steel with fire
Steel with water
Steel with earth
Steel with wood
Fire (with fire)
Fire with water
Fire with earth
Fire with wood
Water (with water)
Water with earth
Water with wood
Earth (with earth)
Earth with wood
Wood (with wood)

Which is a total of 15. And thus you have 4 of each.

If you rather have both ways, and thus Earth with wood, and then Wood with earth. Then I suggest adding Steel with Steel and just Steel. That's right, have just water, and water + water. River and Sea. Desert (keep it steel! ^^ )and "metal"Mine. Simple land/plains and Mountain. Bushes and Forest. Something with less fire, and a lot of fire.

You have 5 x 5 = 25 + another 5 = 30 different tiles. 2 of each!

On a plus side, no strange distribution between the elements. So no 3 fire with 2 wood for a certain tile. Just 1 of each. The simple combinations that you wanted.

***

I'll come back later for new tile suggestions.

Midnight_Carnival
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Long posts always welcome!

They show that people are thinking about what they have to say!

Your tile suggestions were great, the purple pentagons were interesting and slightly trippy 8D, I'll show them to my brother who wanted a good pentagonal tessalation for some game.

As for the overall idea of the game, it's a simple one: build a pathway for your hero to get to the prime enemy square ("castle") and take it over.

Heroes are selected from a pile of them, there are no "always stronger" heroes, some are better at combat, some better at magic, some use items better. The hero has an elemental alignment. You can 'upgrade' your hero by drawing cards from a deck - the cards represent itmes which your hero can use or spell your hero can learn but each card has an elemental alignment. The 'upgrades' add conditions to the way the hero operates on the board (I kind of went into this before)
In a similar way, players can place a tile which also has an elemental alignment. The base tile has its own rules for drawing energy, combat on the tile and how to capture it from the other player. You can then optionally draw cards and add them to the base tile, these improve the tile making it harder for the enemy to capture, easier for a hero with the elemental alignment of one of yours to draw energy from or dangerous for a hero with the elemental alignment of one of your enemies to cross. The conditions you apply to the base tile also have an elemental alignment.
A player's tiles are meant to function together as a system, the player will have these tiles to defend, these tiles to draw energy for more 'upgrades' and these tiles to heal heroes as well as this tile which acts as maybe a 'shop', 'bank' or 'stash'.

I like the idea of hexagonal tiles because it allows for more indirect routes into the enemy territory, I think square or pentagonal tiles could work too though. As for the board, I'm not sure if one is even needed, the main idea of the game is to give players the freedom to create the environment of the territory in which they own tiles, or at least the illusion that they are doing so.

For this reason I'd rather go with 5 types of tile, representing the 5 elements, I don't know how players would indicate that they own the tile or how they would indicate which 'upgrades' they have placed on the tile, seperate tiles for each new condition could become clumsy but to keep it simple only 5 types with however many of each.

I'm not sure that addresses points you have raised, you have some good ideas. If you want to 'steal' my theme and create your own game, you have my blessing*, otherwise I really apreciate all the feedback I'm getting.

* so long as you don't copyright it to the extent where I can't develop something based on my inital ideas later on.

X3M
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I am to dumb to steal idea's.

I am to dumb to steal idea's. (And suggesting too)
;)
Nor is it my job to create games. I see it as a hobby to play and help where possible (of course only those that have my attention).
Then again, if you are scared of those trying to steal, then don't post. There are a hundred watching this topic.

I have only 1 "complete" game myself. And the terrain was a hell to work on for my mechanics. That is why I asked the questions etc.

If it is true freedom that you seek in building the board. And hexagon fields. Well, this makes it clear that you need these instead:
http://stock-image.mediafocus.com/images/previews/hexagon-puzzle-blanc-t...
Great to go any direction. But shuffling is a bit of a nuisance. Production too is troublesome.
However, your board will not fall in parts during play (something I always had trouble with in my early stages).

In addition, you could add some oblivion fields. You see, if players can build up their path and others can do this too. You might also want to block path's.
You also need these fields if both players start with one piece. The 2 are not connected yet. How far will they build before their worlds collide? For this too, I suggest some "emtpy" pieces for in between. The starting points are connected. Now the players need some sort of planning.

For the rest, perhaps you have a manual to share? Playing "the complete" what you have gives more insight than reading parts in this topic. However, reading and reading again starts to give a better view.

Midnight_Carnival
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jigsaw tiles

Heh-heh, nah, I don't want to give players true freedom,just the illusion that they are building "their own magical land" rather than assembling it out of parts I made for them.
I'm going to try a very simple version with only 3 types of element and square tiles, but not right now.

As for the oblivion fields, I'd rather not, that is what some of the elements are for. For example, fire tile with fire condition applied to it gives you an inferno, no heroes except for those with a very strong fire alignment would be able to cross it without suffering heavy damage. Drawing energy would be impossible for any non fire aligned heroes, all wood and metal items would be destroyed unless they had a very high fire alignment as well, etc...
Likewise ocean for water.
In fact most of the elements with the same element condition applied to them would give you a very hostile environment.

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