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Fragile alliances

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DARE the Vegetable
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I just played the multiplayer part of the"Kane & Lynch 2: Dog Days" PC game, and for a 3rd person shooter; It's pretty unique and interesting.
Lemme' break it down fo'ya:

So the idea is that the players are a group of robbers whos goal is to get away with as much cash as possible whithout getting killed by a legion of attacking policemen. The interesting part is that it's possible to kill off the other players in the midst of battle and take the money they're carrying.
In theory, this is really fun although the PC game comes with a couple 'problems. But what I'm getting at is that this concept probably would make for a great board game.
Just imagine the paranoia of not being able to trust anybody and having the cops closing in at the same time.

The concept needs to be reworked, but one thing at a time.

Game rounds should be fairly short and the player with the most money after -say three skirmishes (as in Kane & Lynch)- be the victor.

Now, my first question to you guys: How can I encourage players to betray each other whilst preventing civil war?
This problem could possibly be related to objective. I want players to be greedy: playing dirty and throwing the finger around the table. Winning is the important thing here. Money should be the main concern (over loyalty towards the other players), as they act as victory points at the end of the game.

But it doesn't make sense to share even among the surviving players, then it would be smarter to watch each others backs rather than stabbing them. And if every player gets what they each have collected; why cooperate at all?

The answer to the latter question could be the police as a common enemy. Pandemia comes to mind (I've heard some call it Pandemic, but that might just be the title in another region, I'm europeanlol) in which you HAVE to cooperate because the game is so hellraisingly difficult to beat.

I hope I wasn't too dull. Any and all feedback are welcome.
Thanks for your support!

Small-note-that-should-be-in-the-bread-section-of-the-post: Obviously, the players who tend to betray the group is those carrying a smaller ammount of money. I'm just sayin'.

dnddmdb
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Powers?

DARE the Vegetable wrote:
Now, my first question to you guys: How can I encourage players to betray each other whilst preventing civil war?

Give each player a different power or skill. This power (or skill) is near-essential to the completion of the task. For example, you say that the players are robbing a bank and need to escape alive with the most amount of cash. So, one guy is really good at breaking into the safe.

The others COULD break into the safe themselves, but it would be far more difficult without this guy. The other players would want to keep this guy around until he has cracked the safe, so that they have a better chance of getting away. THEN they take this guy out, but this guy also is the only person who knows where the safehouse is, so they still might need him. But this guy has to be careful in fighting against those who want to kill him, because if he kills the guy trying to take his cash (who just happens to be the only guy who knows how to work a machine gun) then all the players will have trouble getting rid of the cops.

So you threaten gain by the individual with failure as a group.

Hope this helps.

Redcap
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To go along with the previous

To go along with the previous comments: It would kind of be interesting if you had a deck of skill cards that each player randomly grabbed. Some could be mundane skills like speedy +1 movement. But other skills could be essential like safe cracker +5 vs safes. But each player would have several skills.

Players could share which skills they had if they wanted too, but wouldn't be required too. That way, you would never truly know how valuable/dangerous another character was. There might be duplicate skills or the same skill at varying proficiencies. So you might have an expert safe cracker and a good safe cracker on the same team.

This might lead to another interesting gameplay, namely players lieing about what they can do to stay alive.

Concerning what to do with the dead players though, because no one wants to watch others play a game while they sit. You could have the players who die control certain cops. That way they can focus on getting revenge, which puts betrayal as a negative thing; but essential to win.

Just a thought.

dnddmdb
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I agree, and furthermore...

Redcap, I like your idea better, about how secret skill cards would be drawn at the beginning of the game. My idea was just having a certain skill which would always be revealed. I also like the way you can lie about how useful you are to stay alive.

Your idea about dead players was pretty good, too. If player-controlled cops are significantly more dangerous than board-controlled cops, then killing off players so they become cops would be a further incentive to keep players alive.

simons
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One other possibility

Those are all really good ideas. I had one other idea, that perhaps it is worth bouncing off of you, and seeing what you think:

This would take some playtesting to get used to, but you could make the enemy tough enough such that if you have an all-out civil war at the start, you'll likely loose. Say, you have 4 robbers, each robber can on average take out 10 cops before dying, and ~30 cops to fight. If you dropped to 3 at the beginning, there is a semi-reasonable chance of party survival. If you drop to 2, it's really unusual. If it's just 1, you're screwed.

Of course, that would only need to be the case at the beginning. Perhaps, after you have killed 10 of those cops, you start wondering whether player 2 is really pulling his weight, and perhaps you can take him out without seriously hurting your chance of victory.

Again, this would need to be tested a good bit to hone the game to this level, but if you could do it un-forced like this, that could be really cool.

DARE the Vegetable
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Thank you!

I like the idea of lying to stay alive, but I don't think the hidden abilities would work practically. I mean, to use your skill you'd have to show it or else you wouldn't be able to prove you had it, right?

dnddmdb: I still like a situation with essential team-members. Though if every member had 1 ability each, wouldn't the safe-breaker be killed pretty immediately after he broke open the safe? Or does it work to go "I aint' openin' this'ere safe until I have a guarantee y'all won't go ahead and shoot me !"?

Redcap: The cop-respawn was actually in the PC game, I think it's a fun way to have your revenge and the more players are out, the sooner the game will end.

Simons: This could possibly be a solution to the safety regarding Safe Breaking Bob... but oh, the playtesting @_@

dnddmdb
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Perhaps

The way it would work is this: Let's say everyone has 3 skill cards. Each card would be drawn from a seperate pile (Tier 1, 2, and 3). Tier 1 abilities would be the weakest (+1 against other players) and Tier 3 abilities would be the strongest (+6 movement). Each player would recieve one face down.

At any point during the game, the player may reveal their card to use their ability. Until the card is revealed, the player plays as though he has no special skill. So if you don't reveal the movement card, you move the standard rate. But when it comes time to really get out of the bank, you can reveal it and use the skill modifier from then on. You can choose not to have the ability revealed so that you can lie about what it is.

Or, if you choose to use just standard abilities, give each player two abilities, one early game (good at taking hostages, for instance) and one late game (good at killing cops).

I also like Simons' idea. The cops would be so numerous that it would take everyone to fight them off, and it would be a gamble to kill anyone.

dnddmdb
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Added Note

For "safe-cracking bob" to stay alive, what if he lies about his result to open the vault? Or he purposefully fails?
It would work like this: You go to the safe, which has a difficulty check to open (or whatever). The player attempting to open the safe draws a card, which has a number on it. he doesn't show anyone this card. He adds his skill in safecracking to that number, and if it's higher than the safe's difficulty, then it opens. In which case, he reveals the card as proof of his success.

But if he fails, he doesn't reveal the card. Or, as an alternate solution, he can lie and say he has failed, just to buy him more time alive. If his friends are the ones being shot by the cops, then he could benefit from failing on opening the safe the first two times or so.

Just an idea.

Redcap
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One thing you need to be very

One thing you need to be very very careful with a theme like this is games that kill cops generally don't get published, get blacklisted, and don't get purchased; and frankly speaking rightfully so. However, slightly re-theming would allow you to keep the same game mechanics. Even if it is the wild west. It is okay to shoot a western deputy that no longer exists; but busting a cap in a police officer gets some on edge.

Concerning the hidden skills, I have a game where we hide the skills from one another. Each player must know the rules, and when they roll they keep their rolls hidden. When they roll against each other or against the game they don't say what they rolled plus their modifier, rather they just say their net roll. So for example I rolled a 4 but I get a +2, I simply say I rolled a 6. If you play with someone who is going to lie and cheat on a game, chances are they are 12. :) A game like this wouldn't work with people cheating.

But with that said, this again would bring up some really interesting dynamics, such as if I had move +6, I might let people "accidentally" see my roll, then only move +3. That way, if I had to survive in the end I could bust out a +6 move and everyone would be thinking and planning that I could only move +3.

DARE the Vegetable
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One down!

Awright, I think this problem's been worked out :p
Bob will live because killing him just doesn't make sense with 1000 enemies against the 8 players.
With just a crazy overdone ammount of enemies I accomplish mainly 2 goals:
1. Bob will not be betrayed; his lead is still needed.
2. Pushing the players forwards. Rounds should be short, so move yo ass or... die.

And I'll keep the abilities. They're NEAT!

Now I feel that I have to change the title of the cops... but... well this is more for my own gaming, so cops will be shot. Thanks though for the heads up, I didn't think of that at all! :)

SO! I want a little bit of Mario Kart in there: Randomness. How to apply it? Event cards I think is the funniest choice (and potentially apocalypse triggering).
My question to YOU: What sort of things would these cards do to contribute to the themes of urgency, greed and suspicion?

You rock!

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