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INPUT NECESSARY - superhero - total revamp,

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abdantas
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Joined: 11/13/2012
Grim, I think we're right on

Grim, I think we're right on the same page. Action Action Action is the name of the game. I think by having players rotating movement, so each person moves a hero, then a the next moves one and down the line till everyone goes is one of the best ways I've ever seen in a game t o keep players engaged. Having to constantly re-adjust your plans on the fly has always been something I really enjoy in board games (looking at you Lord of the Waterdeep/Agricola)

So here's what I'm thinking action wise.
The game will take place in 4 10x10 boards (1.5 inch squares so the board can be used for heroclix and heroscape) Whenever a player enters an empty board (or when the game starts) t hey will draw the distress cards (there won't be more then 10 of these) They will tell you the bad guys spawned, as well as where the civilians are and where the crimes are happening. (think of the random thugs as almost trash mobs, but the idea is to make them strong enough to be significant but not strong enough to be imposing, a well played player should have no issue just wiping the floor with these suckers)

Whenever a player stumbles upon a crime marker, this means there is a crime in progress (dun dun dun) you draw a crime card and it will tell you whether there's a supervillain there, a armed robbery, blah blah blah. Similar to the distress call, it will have a small 3x3 grid with the Crime Spot being the center one, and it will tell you the bad guys that are there, fi there's anything like a armored car, or something else. (maybe these could be people in need of help, and they will point to something going on somewhere else, it could be like quests that give you fame, oOo, that's a good plan)

So let's think of an example of a particular round (at least in my mind)
Your team consists of The Iron Druid (Tree-guy), Kinect (the kinetic power guy) and Col Creedence Beuregard. You start out in your team space which happens to be in the top of a building this turn. There are 3 mobs of 5 guys, and 3 "quests" you can pick up. Keeping in mind that there are no green spaces in your set-up (Why did you pick the druid dumb -dumb?! You know he can't recharge unless there's nature around) You know that ID is gonna have to take a backing role till you move. So you move K and Col to engage the first group and turn on ID's passive (BarkSkin) that gives him a slight defensive bonus and a slight attack bonus since its' only at lvl 1, but since he can't recharge there's no reason why he shouldn't use it. Kinect runs towards the Bad guys and uses his Charge ability, That adds +2 to attack for every tile he's traveled that turn (i'm the juggernaut B*tch). He knocks into the first guy but hits him so hard (attack is higher then defense so kinetic charge not only does dmg, but it also does knockback) that he flies into the second guy and they both have to roll defense against Kinect, One lives, the other dies since common thugs only have 1 HP. Col uses his Dual Pistols ability purposely targeting 2 of the last 4 guys but misses both times since his attack was tied with both thugs but he did not roll a 5-6. ID begins moving towards the first citizen to pick up a quest + get the points for saving that citizen. the thugs attack Kinect but none of them roll a 6 (they attack is low so they must roll a 6 to hit) and he's fine for now. Kinect has no energy to use this turn because he can't move and he used the charge from his move to barrel into the first guy so the player plays a Feats&Failures card, it's the supercharged card that recovers K's energy. He uses Mega Blow but reserves 2 of his 5(?) energy for his defensive ability. It connects and K removes another thug from play, he now has 3 xp, and 3 fame. Col uses his dual pistols again and manages to get one of the guys, meanwhile ID talks to the civilian and he says that a supervillain and his thugs are robbing an armored car in square (8,8). THat's just around the CORNER!

This is the kind of turns I would like for this game to have. It think the stats and abilities will lend themselves to being very intuitive. The supervillain cards will have abilities and stats like the heroes, but they will also have behavior; This will tell the players how the villain should react when confronted. Does Mole Man have a tendency to Run from danger? Whenever Heroes get too close, does he burrow underground and show up somewhere else?

Also, I've been thinking about your idea of clues. I never thought of maybe having a clue system where players are rewarded for doing some behavior with a clue to the villains whereabouts. I don't think this is quite the feel I'm going for right now, but it's something I'm leaving very VERY open for the future. Right now I'm planning a comic book mode, where players play through a story. (i plan on making the boards double sided, so you could flip it over and have a jungle, or an underground cave, obviously there won't be as many tiles for those places as the city but you understand.) Also, there will be a Crime Wave mode, which is what I've been talking about. Crime Wave can be played everyone vs the board in a semi-cooperative mode, or semi-coop vs one player playing the villains. The rules will be slightly different as the thugs will still be controlled by the board but the Villain player will control a team as well which he will use to try and take out the Hero players. Keeping in mind that the Villain characters are substantially stronger then a hero character on a 1v1 basis. Keeping in mind that a well played hero, with a few tricks left up his sleeve should still have a fighting chance, unless it's a really bad match up, like Kinect not being able to build up energy unless he's being attacked or moving. Considering he's not meant to be a ranged character (although items such as cars and lampposts are intented to be used as weapons in this game, yeah, you heard me. They will have attack bonuses as well as STR requirements, so not only can your weaker guys hide behind the car for cover, a particularly strong character could be able to grab it and hit someone with it.

I started working on the board yesterday, and I have a couple of hero's I created using the heromachine hero creator. I should post one of them up on here later.

Once again, thanks for the insight Grim.

GrimFinger
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abdantas wrote:So let's think

abdantas wrote:
So let's think of an example of a particular round (at least in my mind)
Your team consists of The Iron Druid (Tree-guy), Kinect (the kinetic power guy) and Col Creedence Beuregard. You start out in your team space which happens to be in the top of a building this turn. There are 3 mobs of 5 guys, and 3 "quests" you can pick up. Keeping in mind that there are no green spaces in your set-up (Why did you pick the druid dumb -dumb?! You know he can't recharge unless there's nature around) You know that ID is gonna have to take a backing role till you move. So you move K and Col to engage the first group and turn on ID's passive (BarkSkin) that gives him a slight defensive bonus and a slight attack bonus since its' only at lvl 1, but since he can't recharge there's no reason why he shouldn't use it. Kinect runs towards the Bad guys and uses his Charge ability, That adds +2 to attack for every tile he's traveled that turn (i'm the juggernaut B*tch). He knocks into the first guy but hits him so hard (attack is higher then defense so kinetic charge not only does dmg, but it also does knockback) that he flies into the second guy and they both have to roll defense against Kinect, One lives, the other dies since common thugs only have 1 HP. Col uses his Dual Pistols ability purposely targeting 2 of the last 4 guys but misses both times since his attack was tied with both thugs but he did not roll a 5-6. ID begins moving towards the first citizen to pick up a quest + get the points for saving that citizen. the thugs attack Kinect but none of them roll a 6 (they attack is low so they must roll a 6 to hit) and he's fine for now. Kinect has no energy to use this turn because he can't move and he used the charge from his move to barrel into the first guy so the player plays a Feats&Failures card, it's the supercharged card that recovers K's energy. He uses Mega Blow but reserves 2 of his 5(?) energy for his defensive ability. It connects and K removes another thug from play, he now has 3 xp, and 3 fame. Col uses his dual pistols again and manages to get one of the guys, meanwhile ID talks to the civilian and he says that a supervillain and his thugs are robbing an armored car in square (8,8). THat's just around the CORNER!

This is the kind of turns I would like for this game to have. It think the stats and abilities will lend themselves to being very intuitive. The supervillain cards will have abilities and stats like the heroes, but they will also have behavior; This will tell the players how the villain should react when confronted. Does Mole Man have a tendency to Run from danger? Whenever Heroes get too close, does he burrow underground and show up somewhere else?

ACK!! I want a superhero game that I can play with my son, who is seven years old, right now. I'm pretty sure that, if I read that description to him, he would be lost and giving me a funny look. How do players keep track of the changing experience points and fame? How does my son do it, without getting lost in the process? It needs to flow. It needs to be smooth. The process needs to click.

I'm not hearing that click.

Not in that textual mass of a paragraph, anyway.

How many superheroes does a player control at any one time, anyway? Just one? More than one? Is it a goal to accumulate more and more heroes? Or to build up one or more superheroes?

Is all of the information relevant to a given superhero contained on a single card? Or does it require multiple cards?

abdantas
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Haha, yeah, it sounds more

Haha, yeah, it sounds more daunting then it is.

Fame is kept track of on the actual thugs. Once you beat a thug you flip it over and it tells you how much fame it awards. Experience there will be a tracker with a slider on the top of the hero card. The amount of heros is dependent on the amount of players. For gameplay purposes, the game is either gonna end after a certain number of rounds or when a player reaches a certain amount of fame. You can play multiple players vs the board as well, everyone working as a team trying to be the most famous, which will be a simpler way that they can play 1 hero each, i feel like this will be the most used play-style. Either this or the story mode i plan on including in which each player takes control of a hero.

all the information should be easily to read on the card. I'm a HUGE fan of accessibility, I don't like large rulebooks. I want my games to be intuitive. Like, the bonus you get from being on top of the building will be displayed on the bottom right of the building saying like, Range (bulleye, it will match the one on the hero card) +3 and defence (shield) +2. Like I said, if it's not easy it's hard. Like, all the buildings will have red borders that will tell the players it costs more to move onto that tile, such as a red border with a foot (movement) and a 3 beside it, or something like that.

I have a young kid I want to play it with as well, and if a game isn't accessible my wife won't even touch it. She's normally the gauge I go by. If everything seems accessible to her then i'm on the right track.

The goal right now is that you want your superhero to be the most famous out of the bunch. That's the winning condition, I don't know exactly how to execute. Quests will give you more fame then just beating up bad guys or saving civilians (think of quests as news reports)

GrimFinger
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Earlier this afternoon, I

Earlier this afternoon, I started thinking about what a new player of a superhero game might think, upon sitting down to such a game for the first time. If it was me, and I was sitting down to play a new superhero game, what would I expect to see?

What's going to set that initial tone? What is going to create that first impression?

If the setting for the game is a city, how much - if any - of the city does the player see, when they first sit down to play it?

Regardless of how much or how little that they see of the city, what is the "State of the City?" By that, I don't mean, "What State is the city located in?" Rather, from the point between where the players sit down to start the game, and up until the moment when they begin to move or use their superhero character(s) for the very first time, what gets their attention? What gets their mojo flowing?

Superheroes react to situations, and they respond to crises. So, to me, it makes sense for the villains/super villains to always go first.

Toward that end, one idea that I had was for this thing that I called the State of the City to be assessed by the players. Basically, it would be a way for the initial crime waves to be inflicted upon the city. Thinking that variety is a good thing (the spice of life, it has been called), the initial crime wave could vary from game to game. Maybe the game starts with three crimes in action, or maybe it is just one. Maybe a roll of a dice or a draw of a card might determine it. Basically, I am thinking, "You sit down to play, and BAM!! Instant action - right from the start, right out of the gate."

I also got to thinking about a Panic Factor of some sort, or just Panic, for short. Panic would hinge upon the number of civilians at a given crime scene. Panic, it seems to me, would be one thing that villains and super-villains seek to inflict, both upon the city and upon the would-be superheroes that hope to save the day.

Again, a lot of what I toss out should be considered "food for thought." I just keep on thinking about what in a superhero game that I, myself, might find appealing or drawn to.

One of the beauties of panic would be that, let's say that it takes a superhero three turns to move from his current location to the location where a crime is occurring - the panic factor could be different each turn, either going up or going down. A dice roll would be one way to determine how much panic is occurring, each turn. Lots of panic would be to the benefit of the villains, I would think. You might be able to translate panic into points or power for the bad guys.

I could see panic helping to drive player actions. Maybe there's a big Panic Meter. I don't know. I'm not sure. Just an idea.

Another thing that I was thinking about was another way to drive player action. One thing that drives things in society, today, is the media headline. Think of large cards, maybe large index cards, which look like newspaper headlines (think in terms of the Daily Planet or the Daily Bugle). There's Perry White in Superman's life, aka Clark Kent's editor at The Daily Planet. And There's J. Jonah Jameson, Peter Parker's editor, in the Daily Bugle, in Spiderman's life. It just seems to be something that people connect with superheroes. It's part of the genre. It's thematic, in keeping with the theme.

GrimFinger
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I'm not sure why I went to

I'm not sure why I went to the trouble of creating a PDF copy of the front page of a non-existent newspaper, but I suspect that it was to highlight the use of Media to drive game events in a superhero board game. What I created doesn't drive any actual events, but rather, is geared towards just demonstrating media headlines as a way of injecting more flavor into the superhero theme of the game.

I couldn't figure out how to attach a PDF file to the forum, here, or whether it's even possible to do so in the first place. So, here's a temporary link to the PDF file that I made for you, Abdantas:

http://grimfinger.net/DailyGobble.pdf

abdantas
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Love it. The newspaper, but

Love it. The newspaper, but it doesn't do much to tell you where the crime is to be honest. But i like the set-up and it was very close to what I was thinking. I just need to modify the layout to accommodate what I'm trying to do.

Also, I like the idea of of Panic and how it could affect the game. Maybe make it so that if Panic reaches a certain level the game could end, because you didn't keep the crime wave from happening, OR!!!! new distress cards are drawn and new things happen. Every crime quest (cause I'm thinking the Feats and Failures deck could be replaced by the Headlines! deck that would be like a newspaper... oOo theeeme) could have a preset timer, so lets say you get to the person asking for help on the board, and he says There's this going on here, you have this round adn the next to stop it (round being everyone moving their character) Noticing that engaging the bad guys will cause the timer to stop, but if left undisturbed the criminals can and will run away with the loot and the panic level will rise.

Thanks for the idea, I really, really like that.

GrimFinger
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abdantas wrote:Love it. The

abdantas wrote:
Love it. The newspaper, but it doesn't do much to tell you where the crime is to be honest. But i like the set-up and it was very close to what I was thinking. I just need to modify the layout to accommodate what I'm trying to do.

The fictional crime in the hastily tossed together Daily Gobble was in Chicago, since the windy city was destroyed. How that city's baddest newspaper managed to get printed, if the city, itself, was destroyed, is an unanswered - and unasked - question.

The crime, itself, is irrelevant. The format, media headlines, is what matters. You say that you love it. Why? Why do you love it?

The thing about incorporating some kind of media headlines mechanism into the game is that you can make it as simple as just the article headlines, themselves, that is visible, which would save you the time and trouble of crafting actual articles.

My view on superhero comic books is that they tend to tell a story. They tend to tell a tale. In a board game format, part of what I mean by "telling a tale" involves the experience, itself, of playing a game that is rich in entertainment value. It involves the memories that come from sharing in such experiences. Espirit de corps emanates from shared experiences, both good and bad. In superhero board game format, this translates into players sharing the experience of both defeats and victories. The tale, thus, isn't simply about what Generic Tree Beard Guy does, or about whatever caper that Spinning Top Man pulls.

One possibility involving the use of media headlines is that you can use them to actually serve the function of providing the characters different levels of game play, without actually calling them levels. A low grade villain might have three media headlines devoted to him, whereas a top notch, first rate super-villain might have a dozen or more media headlines devoted to her. You can actually use articles within such fictional newspapers to tell an actual story, and you can do it in a way that has a comic book superhero feel, without having to splurge for a bunch of superhero artwork.

abdantas wrote:
Also, I like the idea of of Panic and how it could affect the game. Maybe make it so that if Panic reaches a certain level the game could end, because you didn't keep the crime wave from happening, OR!!!! new distress cards are drawn and new things happen. Every crime quest (cause I'm thinking the Feats and Failures deck could be replaced by the Headlines! deck that would be like a newspaper... oOo theeeme) could have a preset timer, so lets say you get to the person asking for help on the board, and he says There's this going on here, you have this round adn the next to stop it (round being everyone moving their character) Noticing that engaging the bad guys will cause the timer to stop, but if left undisturbed the criminals can and will run away with the loot and the panic level will rise.

Thanks for the idea, I really, really like that.

I like the Panic idea a lot, too. Plus, it makes sense, I think, since an actual super villain attacking a city would undoubtedly cause a lot of panic, really quick. A Panic Meter might make a nice game prop, too, if you went that route. One end of it could say Victory, and the other end could say Defeat, and over the course of the game, the meter's hand could alternate back and forth between the two. Is it possible for a superhero to lose to a villain, while prevailing on the panic end of things?

If the Panic Meter goes too high, the possibility of a new Distress Card being triggered makes sense, I think. It ties together well, from a superhero game standpoint. Is it necessary? Is it an over-complication for minimal gain? I'm not saying that it is, only asking if it is?

Which brings us back to page one - Why not consider each game component or aspect of design from the perspective of, "How much value - game play, thematic, or otherwise - does this item or aspect or component add to the overall game? Is it unwieldy, unworkable, or simply not feasible?

A Panic Meter, I should note, doesn't have to be linked to a single player or to a single character. It can judge the cumulative panic throughout the city at any given moment. That way, if one superhero player decides to sit on their ass, and play it too safe, or spend too much time doing research or playing water polo down at their Super Hall of Super Justice, the game can still penalize them. All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing. Right? Thus, doing nothing should not be an option for superheroes. They must rise to the occasion.

But, from a super villain perspective, it is desirable that the super do-gooders do nothing, or at a bare minimum, that they have options available within the context of the game to distract them from saving the world. The trick, of course, is convincing the players that there is something to be gained from such distractions. You don't have to include something along these lines, of course. I'm simply tossing out various ideas that come to me, for your consideration and ultimate acceptance or rejection.

abdantas
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The panic meter has to affect

The panic meter has to affect everyone. If you make the game so that players are trying to stop the crime wave before the night is over (10-12 rounds of play maybe) while the supervillains are trying to bring the Panic level to a max so the city revels in FEAAAR.

I really like that idea. I think with the power system we were talking about, as well as as the Headlines! (feats and failures) deck, we're looking at a pretty sweet game.

I was thinking about the power draw mechanic, with the icons and the different powers, and i thought, maybe everyone starts with one hero, they can use their 1000(or whatever it maybe be) power to outfit that one hero with powers so he's terribly strong, or extra heroes could cost some, so you could trade off powerful heroes, for extra heroes that would give you more actions in a turn.

I think that's an interesting dynamic.

munio
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good points grimfinger, in a

good points grimfinger, in a superhero style game the experience the players gets is important, from the opening of the box to the final counting of the points, atmosphere crucial (one of the reasons i wanted to cut the city building aspect), the mechanics as well as art, style, this is a hard part to design, and it only becomes clear what's what during playtesting, still it's important to start thinking about this sort of thing early

"villains create mayhem, heroes solve it""
there is more to this statement then meets the eye, a villain can kidnap the mayor and the hero will show up ( a direct consequence to an action)
but also think about the indirect consequences of those actions, or even worse the long term consequences that a "bad" deccision of a hero has. (imagine that the hero had to crush a building to get across it, accidently killing innocent mother, sending her child into a life of crime)

"Panic"
you can create a sense of panic without explicitly mentioning it ingame, a player will feel more panicked when more and more baddies show up. but a panic tracks is a good way keep track of home many baddies should be deployed/ how many abilites/ power the villain can use on a turn)

(this also gives me an idea for an scenario, "last stand" the city gets swamped by more and more baddies, death is imminent lets, its only a mattar of time).

"newspaper"
sweet idea, but not sure if it applies to this game, heroes are not living with persona's and saving the city seems like a surprisingly common occurence in most comic. You need to create a coherent world

"customizing an hero"
as you mentioned before, figure out what you want your players to experience, if they are single heroes as a player the last thing you want to do, is squander points on a sidekick that you are never going to use. (unless of course their is a superhero duo played by a single player. Are playing jumping into the action, or do they perhaps have to set up their characters D&D style, in advance of an actual gaming session.

When the hero arrives at the scene, what does he see a city in chaos at hands of doctor chaos, or a few burglars being chased by the entire police force,

GrimFinger
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munio wrote:"Panic" you can

munio wrote:
"Panic"
you can create a sense of panic without explicitly mentioning it ingame, a player will feel more panicked when more and more baddies show up. but a panic tracks is a good way keep track of home many baddies should be deployed/ how many abilites/ power the villain can use on a turn)

I understand what you are saying here, about a player feeling more panic, as more and more bad guys show up at a given crime scene.

However, while the player may, indeed, feel more pressure, what a Panic Meter or its equivalent should gauge should be the panic of the city's inhabitants, ordinary civilians, and not the panic of the superheroes. Personally, I favor a roll of a dice, or maybe a spin of a wheel, to calculate panic at a given crime scene on a given turn. My thinking is this, that if a crime takes more than one turn to pull off successfully, then the number of civilians at that location could increase or decrease each turn. So, in three turns, just to draw an example, panic dice rolls of 3, 5, and 1 would yield a total panic factor of 9 for that particular crime. Again, I use this example, just to try and better illustrate the underlying panic mechanism that I envision.

munio wrote:
(this also gives me an idea for an scenario, "last stand" the city gets swamped by more and more baddies, death is imminent lets, its only a mattar of time).

A good idea for a scenario, I think, one of several that collectively form the whole game.

munio wrote:
"newspaper"
sweet idea, but not sure if it applies to this game, heroes are not living with persona's and saving the city seems like a surprisingly common occurence in most comic. You need to create a coherent world

I would counter-argue that a newspaper, as in media headlines, can be implemented in more than one way. I think that it would be a plus on the thematic end of things. Superman and Spiderman are linked to the Daily Planet and the Daily Bugle, respectively. Comic book newspapers tend to use the art of exaggeration well, with grand headlines that grab the readers attention. As far as a coherent world goes, what, exactly, does that mean, within the context of this superhero game? Incorporating media headlines would not render the game incoherent, or less coherent, necessarily. I think that it can be handled in an effective way, one that boosts the overall atmosphere of the game for players.

munio wrote:
"customizing an hero"
as you mentioned before, figure out what you want your players to experience, if they are single heroes as a player the last thing you want to do, is squander points on a sidekick that you are never going to use. (unless of course their is a superhero duo played by a single player. Are playing jumping into the action, or do they perhaps have to set up their characters D&D style, in advance of an actual gaming session.

One thing that I would suggest, with regards to players creating characters from scratch using a set number of points, such as one thousand, is to make the rules require that the player roll one six-sided dice (1d6), and if they roll a three, then they have to create three characters out of that thousand points. That way, you can promote superheroes having sidekicks, or even small Justice League/Justice Society types of superhero groups, while at the same time helping to minimize instances where players have nothing but one thousand point superheroes waking around. This could be useful in helping the game to minimize what I will call the Superman effect, those enormously powerful characters with many areas of strength and few areas of weakness. Abdantas may not want to do this, of course, but it is one way that I can think of to address this particular issue.

abdantas
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Once again thanks for all

Once again thanks for all your input and desire to make the game even better then it already is. I decided that unless the player’s want a completely custom game (where they set up the city on a blind draw) the blueprint deck (formerly known as the distress deck) will tell you the layout for that specific city square, 4 are drawn in the beginning of the game, it will tell you where the thugs are, the civilians, quest givers and then a certain number (haven’t figured it out yet) of crime cards are drawn. Crime cards will tell you which of the 4 squares they correspond to, and what’s going on and who’s there and how much time you have to stop it. Of course all this information will be provided for all 3 levels of difficulty. As your hero gets fame, more and more stronger thugs and villains will want to come and test their mettle against the saviors of yor precious city.

As for character creation. The base stats and unique character abilities are pre-set. On top of that, there will be 6 different power types (more to be added later, expansion maybe?) each with about 9+ different abilities at different costs. Each of the 15 heroes will be aligned to two different power types. Each power type will act differently from each other and change the way your character plays. Right now my archetypes are (Physical, Telekinetic, Tech, Fire, Water, Magic) This will probably bear some changes. Like let’s say one of them is Physical, in physical you might have 3 super str cards, each with a different “move” 3 different super speed that will give you a passive + a move (or nothing, which then will make them cheaper) and Flight, acrobatics. Whatever. So that character that’s a Physical/Tech character, can have as many powers from the physical and tech tree as long as it doesn’t surpass the game limit. On top of that, otherwise, you might want to purchase a sidekick with some of the poinst and give him some powers so you have a few extra moves. Let’s say you have a tech/physical character, you could purchase a water/magic character to compliment him, so each character would have a set number of turns. You’d be trading in powerful-ness for moveability. But at the same time, you can’t move if you’re dead.

Also, the panic meter is something that will force players to keep moving. Whenever there's no crime active, or a crime has successfully timed out, the panic meter goes up a notch. if it hits the max everything is out of control and the heroes loose. So it'll take a mix of characters balancing fame, as to not make anyone so much stronger that no one else can complete their things. All crimes will have a mastermind, and as long as the mastermind is engaged the timer stops.

GrimFinger
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Yo beat me back, before I

Yo beat me back, before I could get this posted, apparently.

http://grimfinger.net/DailyGobble2.pdf

GrimFinger
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abdantas wrote:unless the

abdantas wrote:
unless the player’s want a completely custom game

abdantas wrote:
As for character creation. The base stats and unique character abilities are pre-set.

So, do I understand correctly that, the players cannot create superheroes from scratch, at all? Are all of the superheroes pre-determined for them?

GrimFinger
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abdantas wrote:As your hero

abdantas wrote:
As your hero gets fame, more and more stronger thugs and villains will want to come and test their mettle against the saviors of yor precious city.

In a nutshell, I don't consider this to be inherently problematic.

But this (he says as he points below):

abdantas wrote:
the blueprint deck (formerly known as the distress deck) will tell you the layout for that specific city square, 4 are drawn in the beginning of the game, it will tell you where the thugs are, the civilians, quest givers and then a certain number (haven’t figured it out yet) of crime cards are drawn. Crime cards will tell you which of the 4 squares they correspond to, and what’s going on and who’s there and how much time you have to stop it. Of course all this information will be provided for all 3 levels of difficulty.

Maybe there's just been so much text posted that my eyes are strained, resulting in incapacity of some sort where my mental processing abilities are concerned, but are you positive that you wish to go this particular route? Perhaps this explains why so many super villains are so anxious to destroy the world. They're just trying to get rid of bad ideas, perhaps.

Every fiber of my mortal being rebels against what you are suggesting. Again, maybe I am simply digesting the information provided wrong.

Distress Deck has a nice ring to it. Blueprint Deck has that Blah Effect. The latter detracts from the atmosphere that you are trying to build, whereas the former enhances it. Don't be a bad guy, Abdantas - Don't kill the flavor!

Separate from deadly cloud of idea gas that you have exploded over our heads, let's consider anew the concept of Thugs. I want to see the map, even a hand-drawn one, of a section of the city - any section - with thugs displayed.

Are Thugs in your game actual physical, tangible objects, such as moveable pawns? Are they displayed on cards? Are they merely numbers on a dice or in one's head?

munio
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hmm i am not a big fan of a

hmm i am not a big fan of a dieroll for randomised panic output, this can makes quite swingy, and less dependent on player skill,

I like the idea of having semi-preset powers: as a designer you can ensure that players are alwas able to deal with every enemy on the board in at least some form or fasion, and that campaigns are always completable with every character. points can be spend on extra skills, complementing the ones you already have, and allowing for a diffrent approach to solve prlems better and quicker

abdantas
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Ill include what I used to

Ill include what I used to make the basic stats, players will be free to pick a hero, as every 2 icon combination will be available at least once power wise. The powers will be what they pick. Yes the distress deck does sound better. I'm gonna try and throw together a quick prototype and post it up on here. Cool

GrimFinger
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munio wrote:hmm i am not a

munio wrote:
hmm i am not a big fan of a dieroll for randomised panic output, this can makes quite swingy, and less dependent on player skill,

Understood. However, what is panic, anyway? The very nature of panic, its inherent nature, makes it susceptible to being "swingy," as you put it. If the public fear of the masses was easily controlled, then we wouldn't have to worry about panic to begin with - at least, not on the scale of what I imagine would exist, were actual superheroes and super villains to begin engaging in open conflict in a densely populated urban setting. I can easily envision panic happening spontaneously, with great potential for rapid and uncontrollable escalation.

In the context of a superhero board game, why should panic be easily manageable, at all? So that everything can be neat and tidy for superheroes trying to stop super villains (whom are often Hell-bent on being as destructive and harmful, as possible) from destroying the city, world, or universe?

Lots of people die in comic book superhero stories. Entire cities. Entire planets. Entire galaxies - even dimensions and universes. Yet, the grand object in a superhero board game should be to maximize player skill, while simultaneously minimizing chance and luck and randomness?

Two of Batman's arch-foes come immediately to mind - The Joker and the Riddler. How predictable are they? How much chaos and confusion and panic - yes, panic - do they sow?

munio wrote:
I like the idea of having semi-preset powers: as a designer you can ensure that players are alwas able to deal with every enemy on the board in at least some form or fasion, and that campaigns are always completable with every character. points can be spend on extra skills, complementing the ones you already have, and allowing for a diffrent approach to solve prlems better and quicker

What good is a superhero board game where super villains threaten to destroy the city, world, or universe, yet there's no actual way for such to occur? How anti-climactic is that?

If the objective is for superheroes to always save the day, then relegate them back to saving cats from trees - trees that pose no actual threat to the cat in the first place, but rather, is only a fear that is fabricated by cat lovers in the first place.

Personally, I don't think that players should open the box of a superhero board game, while being safe in the knowledge that they will prevail over the bad guys. The eternal struggle between the cosmic forces of Good and Evil, within the context of the superhero environment, is a struggle, for a reason.

To maintain the cosmic balance is one thing. To maintain it at no price, by virtue of the fact that good will automatically prevail, would be a farce.

What would be the point of players playing super villains in this game, knowing that the threats that they create to public safety are so predictably contained?

What's the plan? Drill a hole in the Panic Meter, and stick a peg in it, so that the meter can never tilt all the way over to the evil side?

I don't think that every campaign should be "completable," regardless of which character or characters that they play. I think that evil should prevail, in some plays of the game. Otherwise, what replayability does the game actually have?

Morphing the game into a Candyland in Costumes just won't cut the mustard with die hard fans of comic book superheroes, I don't think.

If the superheroes can always accomplish the mission and save the world, then the game becomes an exercise in simply going through the motions. Where's the sense of urgency in that?

My view on it is this: Look, the world's in mortal danger! The threat posed by super villains is uniquely resistant to police and military resolution, in many instances. Heroes save the day. In order to save the day, the day must first be in danger.

Superheroes should rise to the occasion. The occasion should not be watered down to ensure that they prevail. The good guys don't need a rigged game. Hell, I favor it being possible to kill the superheroes, themselves, during game play. How does the game continue, if all of the superheroes are dead? What are you banking on? Magneto's mercy?

If I am playing the super villain in a board game, then I want to be able to inflict chaos, confusion, and panic. If the city or the world is facing destruction, then carnage and destruction should be the order of the day. There' a reason that the world needs superheroes to save them - Because they are in danger - actual danger!

GrimFinger
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abdantas wrote:Ill include

abdantas wrote:
Ill include what I used to make the basic stats, players will be free to pick a hero, as every 2 icon combination will be available at least once power wise. The powers will be what they pick. Yes the distress deck does sound better. I'm gonna try and throw together a quick prototype and post it up on here. Cool

You still seem to change your mind with frequent regularity. Thus, it might be a bit premature, yet, to toss together a whole prototype.

I recommend that you think more along the lines of prototyping each component part of the game. Take Thugs, for instance. They are either actual units on the board, or they are not. Granted, they might be units and something else, simultaneously, but at a bare minimum, they are either actual units on the board or they are not.

It may be a bit premature to prototype the Thugs aspect of the game's design, though. Your card decks keep changing, for example. Things still seem to be pretty fluid. Not that that's necessarily a bad thing. Rather, it just seems to be a fact, from my perspective.

abdantas
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The design elements of the

The design elements of the actual game haven't actually changed much at all other tehn the way of assigning powers. All that's really changed are minor things, like what I mean to call the deck.

The blueprint deck is the same as the Distress Deck. (but you are right that the distress deck sounds better)
Then we have the Crime Deck, that has not changed, only a bit in execution.
And we have the Feats and failures deck, which will be designed to kind of look like a newspaper

The thugs will be physical pieces on the board. In my mind they will be placed on top of a disc that depicts What kind of thug it is and what abilities and stats it has, that will be shows on a regular poker sized card.

The buildings will be chipboard cut outs that will be placed on top of the gridded board.

My thoughts was maybe the distress deck could tell you where to place buildings, but since the scenarios will do that, I don't think it's necessary.

munio
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"Personally, I don't think

"Personally, I don't think that players should open the box of a superhero board game, while being safe in the knowledge that they will prevail over the bad guys. The eternal struggle between the cosmic forces of Good and Evil, within the context of the superhero environment, is a struggle, for a reason."

I think it's important that thei is always the possibility for the players to win at the start of the game, if a player can't possibly win because they didnt pick the right set of powers from the start, the player will loose interest very fast.
I am not saying that the good guys should assume they will win any scenario, deffinitly not, what i am saying is: at the start of the mission players should have a chance to win, not a big chance, not an guranteed victory, just say a 10% chance to beat the bad guy, imagine that after an hour of gameplay you all of a sudden come to the conclusion that youc cant possibly win, the rest of the game is spend prolonging the inevitable, thats bad for a game. Ooh my peashooter only does 1% damage, this is going to be pretty darn though, lets hope i get lucky, versus, whoops cant damage, guess i'm dead.

The fact that a player can win a game, if they get lucky, are pretty damm smart doesnt mean the game is pushover easy. In fact make some missions practically unwinable, give players the feeeling that the villain is stomping them in the ground every time, but they shouldnt be chanceless. I dont even care how it's implemented, wheter it's having to pretty Captain Wetshispants because he is the only one who can deal with the villain in the end

"prototyping"
well it's time to test out some ideas, see if they feel right if they make mechanical sense, try to figure out fit the feel is right, paper is cheap and trying things doesn't hurt, you re going to change a ton of stuff before it's finished, you might throw out entire mechanics and come up with new stuff altogether.

abdantas
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got a few character models on

got a few character models on here for you guys to see.

http://www.bgdf.com/node/8012

let me know waht you think.

questccg
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Negotiation

munio wrote:
I am not saying that the good guys should assume they will win any scenario, definitely not, what i am saying is: at the start of the mission players should have a chance to win, not a big chance, not an guaranteed victory, just say a 10% chance to beat the bad guy, imagine that after an hour of gameplay you all of a sudden come to the conclusion that you cant possibly win, the rest of the game is spend prolonging the inevitable, that's bad for a game. Ooh my peashooter only does 1% damage, this is going to be pretty darn though, lets hope i get lucky, versus, whoops cant damage, guess I'm dead.

Well for one thing, I think the game should include scenario for *co-opetition*. What I mean if ONE Superhero (Player) cannot complete the mission ALONE, he can NEGOTIATE with other players to see if he can convince one of them to help him out. Sorta a *Justice League* type of game play. I don't know what REWARDS are in the game, but if players can use rewards to negotiate deals with the other players... I think this would be real cool... Adding player negotiation to the game... Like I said, I don't know what the *rewards* of your game are, so I cannot give further explanations or details.

The other thing that I wanted to add is this: as the number of players cooperate to beat a mission, the ODDS of winning are GREATER. So if just Superman is trying to stop the Bank robbery, he has LESS chances (or odds) of succeeding than ALL of the Justice League (All players playing - as an example).

I wish I had a better understanding of the rewards - I would ponder further on this aspect of the game... Got my attention on this particular aspect of the game... now that it might include co-operative play and negotiation... ;)

abdantas
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Technically, the way the

Technically, the way the combat is set up, it’s made so that there is no way for anyone to be truly 100% invulnerable. They may be hard to hurt, but not invulnerable.

Combat is as follows. If player’s attack is greater than the defending player’s defense, it is an automatic hit. The attacking player may try to roll a 5-6 for double damage. But if it’s not a successful roll, attacker does no damage at all. If attacker attack and defenders defense are equal, attacker MUST roll a 5/6 to hit at all. A player with a lower attack score then the defenders defense, can still attack, but will only hit if a 6 is rolled. Of course there are cards from the Feats and Failures deck that could increase as well as decrease the chance of them rolling the right amount.

Combat was developed this way to keep any 1 hero from being truly invincible. Let’s take a look at the invulnerability power. All it does is negate the first point of damage done to you in that round, BUT if 5 people attack you, or if a player does double damage to you, you can still be hurt. It was engineered this way so that no one character is every truly almighty. The last thing I want is people just ignoring the thugs because they can just run past them and rack up points on quests. I want players to consistently have to weigh the odds when facing any kind of combat. Hopefully this will push them (as it would be) that instead of making Superman, you’d make more of a Batman character who’s ready for everything, and very aware of his own shortcomings.

When quests are done, players are rewarded with fame. If players decide to team up, the one with the actual quest COULD choose to be benevolent and share his Fame, but it’s not mandated. Allegiances can be formed and players can be backstabbed as the game does have “friendly” fire. The trick is, can you make it look like an accident so the other players don’t turn on you? The feats and failures deck will give you all sorts of tricks and neat little bonuses.

Also, when the Super villains show up. Heroes will be hard pressed to stand up to them 1v1. They are being designed to be inherently more powerful then the heroes. Instead of forcing players to be the Justice League, think of them more as being forced into a Marvel Team-Up.

abdantas
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http://grimfinger.net/CosmicA

http://grimfinger.net/CosmicAshes/showthread.php?tid=1

There are some PDF files there about the game.

munio
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i had something even simpler

i had something even simpler in mind for the combat: simply substract defense from attack (to a minimun of one) in case you want to cut out dierolling

abdantas
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That's the basic premise, but

That's the basic premise, but I want there always to be a chance the attacker can hit, of he has more ATt the DEF it hits automatically, then the dice rolling is optional

I’ve been thinking a lot about power types lately. I’ve been wondering whether you feel like there should be let’s say, 4 basic archetypes that emcompass a large amount of powers (like Physical, Magic, Tech, Mental) or whether there should be several specific power sets with pertaining abilities (like fire, ice, electric, str, speed, flight, etc etc) Granted all those basic sets could be included in a bigger archetype (fire,ice,electric are all elemental powers) and then they all have their power value and players pick from the beginning.

This brings me to my second question, do you think that maybe I should have some basic preset heroes with a unique ability and stats aligned to some specific power types (this would make it tremendously easier to run a well thought out story mode) or do you think that players should be able to pick their archetypes at the beginning of the game.

Also, when it comes to power selection. I thought about each hero being aligned to one specific archetype. And having all the archetypes kind of aligned in a square or circle pattern. In which you can purchase your powers at a regular price, but you can purchase the ones adjacent to you in the diagram at increasing values. So let’s say one of the power types is Gravity Manipulation, Invulnerability and Super Str could be adjacent to it pertaining to that it all has to do with some very real physics, so for me to purchase some powers from those trees, it would be considerably cheaper then someone on the whole other side of the spectrum. What do you think?

abdantas
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Should I just follow my

Should I just follow my original plan of having set powers for each hero?

munio
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i wouldnt mind that players

i wouldnt mind that players cam buy overlapping powers, (two characaters having access to the same power possibly for diffrent cot) but i feel heroes should also have unique powers,

on a second note, you can give the players all the powers they want and give some suggestions for a set up in the rulebook (e.g "for your first game we recommend abilities A B C" )

abdantas
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Oh yeah, most powers will

Oh yeah, most powers will have a passive ability, then the more active abilities they can use that power for it will raise the cost. So passive = tier 1, passive +1 active tier 2, passive + 2 active tear 3. All the characters will have unique stats and at least 1 unique ability. I'm not sure whether this unique ability should be a one time use super powerful ability, or a mutiple use small ability, maybe vary it up.

I don't know if i want to give everyone access to everything. I think it kinda kills what I'm trying to do. I thought about arranging the archetypes in a diagram and you can buy powers from any of the ability types, but hte farthest from your own the more costly it gets. It's a bit tricky, any ideas?

I think giving everyone all the powers might screw up the comic book narrative I was going for in the game, maybe it wont. it's a good thought.

abdantas
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Also, i thought about maybe

Also, i thought about maybe having a few unique powers to each individual, and having a general pool of pretty standard powers (like movement powers and super str, heat vision, bone arrmor, that kinda t hing.)

I think that's hte best option so far.

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