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Opinions, critiques, obvious flaws - Manges-Toutes.

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Tue, 01/28/2014 - 17:58
Mansemat
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Hello

A while ago I finished my overzealous work on one of my projects called Manges-Toutes. I'm currently playtesting with my family but it's going slow since we don't have much free time together. And thus I'm looking for some outside help.

In short:
Manges-toutes is a small, mostly kids game about a couple of creatures who wish to eat everything and make great dishes.
Gameplay is Tetrislike where randomly drawn foods drop in a 3x3 grid down to the player's 4 stomachs.
Players are then encouraged to make combinations with the foodtypes (who have their own score) by combining them in threes in one of the stomachs of their creature.
Upon completion of the combination, if it's a valid combination, players will receive the score-total. The winner is the one who reaches 100 points the fastest.
Certain combinations of three same foods can for example: clear a row, column, create a fourth stomach etc. And each player has an ability and a small birdy who often gets hungry.

I therefore would like to throw this game in the open (as it stands now) by giving you the rulebook and would like to receive some comments on it so I can put this idea and concept in better perspective.

The (extreme low res 2mb) can be found here:
http://www.jitselemmens.com/wordpress/portfolio/manges-toutes/

Any help is appreciated, but these are my first steps in going public with one of my boardgame ideas so be gentil prettyplease! ;)

Thanks in advance

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Tue, 01/28/2014 - 20:42
#1
RGaffney
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I love the art. Did you do it

I love the art. Did you do it yourself?

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Wed, 01/29/2014 - 03:46
#2
Mansemat
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an answer

Yeah, basically doing everything on my own so it's quite difficult to form an unbiased opinion and I'm in "dire" need of help for some stuff.

I know I'm spending too much time on the art stuff, escpecially if I would send it to publishers, but it gives me something to do while on the commute.

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Fri, 01/31/2014 - 06:14
#3
Mansemat
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No comments or critiques at

No comments or critiques at all?? :(

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Fri, 01/31/2014 - 13:49
#4
RGaffney
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I'm afraid it's just a lot to

I'm afraid it's just a lot to take in. I looked at the manual but I still have no idea what it would be like to play

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Fri, 01/31/2014 - 15:27
#5
Corsaire
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There it is...

RGaffney wrote:
I'm afraid it's just a lot to take in. I looked at the manual but I still have no idea what it would be like to play

That is a key critique. I had the same problem. A kid's game where the instructions intimidate or are hard for an adult gamer to wrap their head around is a problem. Aliens, food dropping from the sky, a companion, stomach conditions, etc. etc. I find it too hard to digest (haha.)

I think simplification is needed. Can you write up an initial easy version of the game? Then consider other elements as advanced options? It's like Agricola, the first time I opened the box, all the pieces, squares, layout, professions, improvements, etc. very intimidating. But playing a first solo game with no professions or improvements makes it clearer.

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Fri, 01/31/2014 - 17:26
#6
Mansemat
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Cool... I don't really know

Cool... I don't really know if it's a kid's game but to me it looks like it could be one. It's most likely a bit too hard for kids but who knows...
I'll write up something as soon as possible. I didn't really include a gameplay example in the game since (quite frankly) I don't need an extra 4 pages in the manual.

Basically the game is:
-all players start with 3 randomly drawn foods
-these drop, in a player's turn, one row downward
-the player who's turn it is also takes X randomly drawn foods, selects them and places one of them with every player. Here players can give themselves the desired foods and screw up any plans other players could have.
-players, during their turns can use their bird to "snatch" food from other players so it falls in their grid (they can choose not to use it which will have other effects later on)
-as food drops on the lower row they'll drop in one of 3 stomachs so players will place food in a stomach, seperate or together.
-goal is to combine three foods to make a dish (example: banana, icecream, chocolate = damme blanche)
3 succesfull foods give a score of the sum of the 3. doubles give only the score of 1

-in order to be able to make combinations whoever you'll need to discard food, but this will create garbage, and too much of that will kill you and make you lose the game
- to help players there are the above mentioned birds but also special combinations which are certain foods that can be combined in threes. These do not give points but special bonusses: example: 3 peppers allows you to remove one row of food, 3 chewinggums make a bubble - which functions as a fourth stomach.
- finally there are some tokens players can use that x2 and x3 the points of a succesfull combinination and each character can draw a special ability card at the start. These are optional and for more advanced players I guess.

That's about it.

Two problems I have with the game as it is now is:
- lowering the food in the beginning seems slow. Basically 2 rounds where not much happens. Fixed by starting in a lower row I think
- players might forget which one dropped (a solution was given by someone on BGG but her solution could also provide troublesome... But then again... I often have problems remembering which card I need to draw in a game like Pandemic for example) So maybe it's not that big of a deal.

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Sat, 02/01/2014 - 01:24
#7
RGaffney
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From here it seems pretty

From here it seems pretty clear that it has retained too much of it's appness.

I understand how most of this would work in a computer game, and I understand why you switched. But bonuses like a bubble that inflates after you do something feel like a reward when they are automatic and come with an animation. they are confusing when you have to do them for yourself and only yourself.

Falling mechanics have been used with success in games but this also feels better suited to a computer because all of the pieces will have to be moved manually.

I wonder if there is a way to adjust several of these mechanics to make them more tabletop friendly

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Sat, 02/01/2014 - 01:57
#8
donut2099
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I prototyped a game using the

I prototyped a game using the theme of an aquarium and food falling to the bottom while fish tried to eat it (resulting in a string of poop that continued to grow...) and I ended up ditching the falling mechanic pretty quick because it felt really forced and hard to remember to do it after each move. Ended up with a game more like the snake game then threw it on the shelf.

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Sat, 02/01/2014 - 18:52
#9
Mansemat
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Apparently my previous reply

Apparently my previous reply didn't come through but I"ll re-post it abbreviated:

Didn't quite grasp how the bubble would be confusing when doing it themselves. It's merely an exchange of 3 food tokens with one bubble token representing the fourth stomach. This type of exchange is used in most games no and it also requires the player to exchange themselves?

I might be able to change the falling mechanic and it's possible difficulty with merely having players fill the whole grid from the beginning.
Instead of the tokens dropping players would merely remove either the lowest row and fill in the blanks with turned tokens (rather then the visible, dropped, tokens).
I don't take taking three random tokens from the grid would be good since it would either make the game even more random or too easy since you can simply pick any food in the grid rather then to be force-fed into a combination.

Lastly: have any examples of games with falling mechanics?

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Sun, 02/02/2014 - 00:43
#10
RGaffney
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Castle Panic has something

Castle Panic has something like falling (all the enemies move forward every turn)

As to bubbles. I'm talking about a psychological, not a mechanical difficulty. When I play a video game and I match 3 and the screen lights up and shows a cartoon and gives me something it makes me happy, even if I don't know why.. When playing a board game and I match 3 and I have to think "okay wait what does that do" and someone says "match 3 destroy a row!" and I say "No that's peppers" and they say "what do these do" and I say" "I don't know how am I supposed to memorize a unique effect for every item in the game when I do something rare with them" and then I open the rulebook, but the cat is on the rulebook, I have to feed the cat than I look in the rulebook and then it says that I need something called a "bubble token" what is a bubble token? The cute girl I like is bored, so she takes out her phone and starts txting. I find the bubble token in the box, and I replace the 3 gum for the bubble and then I review the rules for having a 4th stomach and pass my turn while everybody says "Finally" and it makes me sad.

I'm perfectly capeable of handling it but I want to be happy not sad

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Sun, 02/02/2014 - 05:25
#11
Mansemat
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The bubble token is the token

The bubble token is the token that looks like a bubble?
The special foods that have threes have a symbol?
The special foods can be found on the A5 sized board that has the combinations and their effects on them?

Everything in a videogame is easier, you don't need to go to your rulebook and check how to push the A button. You don't need to figure out a lot of things you need to know in boardgames (which is why they are more popular i guess - that and the fact having 4 people in the same room is daunting).

Ofcourse you're going to be sad if you don't know the rules? Do you know the rules of every game instantly? I don't... even the games people say are easy I still at a point arrive to "what the hell, what if but then" and I need to go watch 5 videos that don't mention that rule at all and think... ok.
If "these cardboard pieces with this logo perform a special action" and "all the others can be combined however you want, as long as it's plausible" is too difficult then idk what game one needs to make.

And a cute girl who starts texting cause she's bored really isn't a catch. I get sad too when people "sigh" when I want to play a game with them and they don't have an attention span of more then 3 minutes... But it's the people that make me sad.

Anyone else find the rules too confusing (not that many people downloaded it according to my site stats)?

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Sun, 02/02/2014 - 17:27
#12
donut2099
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I confess I had not

I confess I had not downloaded the rules till this morning :) I took a few minutes just now to read through them and I tend to agree they aren't very clear. There seems to be a lot going on in the game. The primary idea I understand to be collecting ingredients to create dishes. I like this. The falling food with multiple velocities is too complicated, and its hard for me to see from tbe rules why its even necessary . It seems like you could get the same result by just drawing food tokens on each turn. I think I would have to see the game being played before I could tell much else about it.

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Sun, 02/02/2014 - 17:55
#13
Mansemat
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I'm all for dropping the

I'm all for dropping the speed asset of it. I added it to make the game more difficult and to increase the chances of players having to discard food (and thus lose the game faster).
This is maybe the biggest 'left-over' from the videogame plan where, like, Tetris it would just go faster and faster.

But I guess it doesn't matter since food will be discarded anyway.

Idk if there's that much going on but I'm gonna make an addendum to the rules by making a gameplay example and check in with that later.

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Sun, 02/02/2014 - 20:53
#14
RGaffney
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It's worth saying out loud

It's worth saying out loud since this is your first game here. that whether or not it is too video gamey, or there is too much going on, is completely up to you to decide. Games like Game of Thrones will get made fun of for their complicated rules, but if they are fun they will still sell a million copies. http://www.cracked.com/video_18427_game-thrones-board-game.html

I believe in games that you can get started playing in under a minute and I experiment a lot with ways to roll out rules in game. Some people in here are interested in games like D&D but think it should be longer and more complicated. It's whatever you want that really matters. Maybe it's a great game that just doesn't come across well on this message board.

I still love your art though

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Mon, 02/03/2014 - 03:28
#15
Mansemat
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Technically this is my first

Technically this is my first but yes... But I do think it's not a difficult game and that something goes wrong with how I explain it? Babylonian speech confiusion mayhaps?

Seeing I can't possibly make 1000+ combinations of food I had to allow player-judgement but seeing that would make it too easy I had to make it more hard. And yeah, the falling mechanic maybe isn't really... plausible in a boardgame environment... UNLESS i make a board that's skewed and the tiles are laying on top of eachother and ... THEY DROP CUZ GRAVITY! :D

If I would like to market it as a kids games the mechanics might be too much but then again the speed elements can be discarded. I think I like the idea of starting with a full grid more now than starting with three on top. I'm discarding the speed stuff and light/heavy foods since they never really sat quite well in a way.

Regardless the comments made helped my to push in a certain direction and I'm more "confident" to show a couple of other beta-rulebooks. But those games might be even more elaborate. No art for those though... painting quality people is a bit more elaborate than cartoony Illustrators :/

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Mon, 02/03/2014 - 04:04
#16
RGaffney
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There are MUCH more elaborate

There are MUCH more elaborate games that have been outlandishly successful. Some things just don't come across on this board (and sometimes the people who are active are just feeling less up for reading than other times)

The skewed board idea, if you could make it work would actually be really cool. Like a tabletop version of Plinko

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Mon, 02/03/2014 - 06:31
#17
Mansemat
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It might be fairly plausible

It might be fairly plausible and inexpensive by using the boards.
I have been thinking about a way to use the scrap you get from all token boards for a while now (such a waste) but I haven't come further than a way too large penholder LOL

But a sloped board made from several cutouts wouldn't be as expensive to make or include than a wooden or plastic one.

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Mon, 02/03/2014 - 11:13
#18
RGaffney
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My concern with cardboard

My concern with cardboard would be wear and tear.

You have to count on this thing to work the same way every time after I fold and unfold it for storage.

I'm not saying it is not possible with heavy gauge chipboard. But it is absolutely a challenge.

then again plastic and 3D printing is not exactly accessible. Wood is real hard to mass produce.

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Wed, 02/19/2014 - 06:35
#19
Mansemat
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Hello I have updated the

Hello

I have updated the rulebook to include a type of gameplay example and have removed most of the speed-rules.

The file (9mb) can be found:

http://www.jitselemmens.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/pdf/Manges-Tout...

or via my site page:
http://www.jitselemmens.com/wordpress/portfolio/manges-toutes/

Any feedback is welcome ofcourse

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Sun, 03/02/2014 - 15:28
#20
let-off studios
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The gameplay example greatly

The gameplay example greatly clarifies what's going on with the game. I suggest moving that up in the rules so players can see that sooner.

The notion of players attempting to put together combinations of colours sits better with me than players determining if different foods have a way to be combined together. Although I've not played it, I imagine the players would spend a lot of time moving between the game board and the menu options, constantly considering the placement and order of foods to develop a winning combination. Additionally, it seems to me that a group would be further limited (or certain players would have an unfair advantage) based on their own dining/recipe experience. It's kind of like playing Scrabble with food: the more extensive your vocabulary, generally the better you'll do.

The different ingredients all have point values, and those aren't dependent on a specific type of food. I'd recommend trying to rule out a specific variety of food and simply use colour combinations. For scoring, allow the highest-value food of any colour award points, while the others are ignored. Three of a kind could still score only one point, or they could be the combinations required to earn special effects or tokens. Three white allows you to empty a stomach, three yellow allows you to block another player's stomach, etc.

If you'd want to add complexity beyond that, then have a non-compatible pair of colours: red never goes with white, blue never goes with green, etc.

Leave the specific food combinations for an advanced level of the game.

The birdy seems like an excellent addition, but again I don't know how fiddly it would be for the player without playtesting it myself. If it takes a lot of time to mess with, then simply allow the player to activate it only when it's fully-rested. Again, increase the effectiveness of the birdy in advanced levels of the game, so the beginner-level games are more accessible.

Looks like a lot to take in, but I think the gameplay example helps out tremendously - including the graphic design, which I think was excellent. The white arrows are an effective, clarifying touch.

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Sun, 03/02/2014 - 18:09
#21
Mansemat
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Thanks for the input. I do

Thanks for the input. I do have a hard time seeing how "only colors" could provide any challenge as it doesn't allow for that many combinations and would reduce the special-foods to a mere 5. I do also think that it would be equally difficult for players to remember these... I don't really know how intuitive they are but to me they're logical ofcourse (3 bubble gum makes a big bubble, too much liquor makes you puke, water purifies, too much babana constipates, pepper makes you sneeze etc)

The scores on foods are based on their rarity of use in dishes and foods, reducing them to a color combination would limit it I think and would make it more of a "get lucky to draw a high number) maybe and would take away a lot of the "theme".
I'm gonna sleep on it though and maybe I'll see a path tomorrow regarding this play method.

Ive noticed during the few playtests with my children that they indeed (and ofcourse) find examples from their experience and that they rather make up dishes instead of combining them like I or someone who cooks would. I do think however that this is normal behaviour and that in any game a kid will use whatever he or she knows.

To me, the birdy and special abilities are an medium to advanced player option but I don't know how it would feel to add this in the rules. I've yet to see a manual that states "you can leave this rule out if you want" without looking too uhm... "open in the rules".

Moving the food doesn't take that long and thanks to a colleague of mine I can make it even faster by adding one simple card-board addition.

Combining foods in my eyes is too simple since you can add everything (within limits) to eachother. But seeing the recurring comment of it being too hard or open I'll try to look for a way to limit it more mechanically but that would mean yet another thing players will need to keep track of.

In one of the following days (if my boss allows it) I'm going to do a final printing of the tiles and everything and get rid of the paper & pen version we've been fumbling with. If any one is interested to print and play lemme know but be warned: it's a lot of work (150+ circular tokens). :O

Anyways, thx for the input!

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