Skip to Content
 

Respectful, Offensive, Permission? (The Great Totem)

16 replies [Last post]
Thu, 03/29/2018 - 16:26
Trepid
Trepid's picture
Offline
Joined: 07/01/2017

This topic is in regards to my game 'The Great Totem' which was a topic posted on game mechanics last year. I stepped away from it for a while due to mechanic and other issues I could not figure out or solve. Here's a quick breakdown:

It is a Native American deck building game with a board making up several territories. You play as one of several different tribes (Sioux, Comanche, Cherokee, Apache, etc), and the objective is to be first to build your great totem. To do that, you must hunt certain animals, build shelters, obtain weapons/armor/shield, and gain skills learned from hunting certain animals. Your abilities and upgrades are controlled/restricted by (chaos, harmony, coup) and principles (judgement, peace, prosperity, wisdom). The objective might be changed to something else as it might lack strength but that is not the reason for this post.

Something I am still battling with is causing offense or lack of respect. I don't want to get caught up in the modern American thought of "not wanting to offend anyone", but I feel this is a special circumstance. I have a small amount of Native American blood, but I feel that doesn't give me the right to build a board game involving Native Americans. Causing offense is the last thing I want to do, and the design of this game in no way attempting to poke fun at any tribe or band of Native Americans. In fact, my heart goes out to American Indians in what they have been through and I am very sympathetic to the horrors their people have suffered. I am fascinated by their culture and history in their ways of living and providing for their families. It was this reason that I wanted to design this game.

When I consider the possibility that some people might become upset of me building a game like this, I wonder if it is a good idea at all. I mentioned this topic in another post last year but didn't get but one or two responses. I feel very strongly about the theme of this game and some of the mechanics and I think it would be a really fun game to build. Do you imagine that it would be proper to actually contact people in each of the tribes to get their own personal thoughts? Does it seem like a borderline offensive game?

Top
Thu, 03/29/2018 - 16:45
#1
Jay103
Jay103's picture
Offline
Joined: 01/23/2018
Trepid wrote: Something I

Trepid wrote:

Something I am still battling with is causing offense or lack of respect.

Honestly, that was my very first thought when I read your premise.

One, actually having some Native American blood is probably helpful. I'd say your rulebook would need a section near the top on your motivations, and mentioning that (as specifically as possible.. hopefully "some" is not like 1/64...).

Two, research research research. You need to get RIGHT what it is that's important to the tribes (principles, etc.). You can't just make them up like in a fantasy game.

Also, yes, I would totally talk to actual people on actual reservations about it, to be sure of number two, above.

It's only offensive if you treat the subject lightly, or like it's a fantasy realm where you get to make stuff up.

Top
Thu, 03/29/2018 - 16:48
#2
ruy343
Offline
Joined: 07/03/2013
Perhaps make the theme less direct

I actually really like the idea of building a totem over time as a reward that drives the game forward, and which might even provide a scaling reward. That's the kind of intuitive visual aid that would really help the concept make sense. Age of Empires 3 did this sort of scaling power level for wonders, depending on when you built them for the Asian factions (more powerful if built in later ages), and it provided a neat meta-idea of "when is each one best", and "when does that differ depending on circumstances".

That said, I think the way to make it less (inadvertently) offensive is lies in two directions:
1. Make sure that the game isn't directly referencing any existing tribe(s) or pantheon of sacred animals/spirits. Naturally, you might include animals' resemblances for your totems, but don't base your art on a specific totem, nor name them after gods/spirits of any existing tribes. That said, naming them for now-dead tribes/mythologies (e.g. the Aztecs) probably wouldn't lead to many problems.
2. Make sure that the game isn't about conquest or domination of other powers/players (e.g. a Euro-style worker-placement/hand management game where players race for victory points is probably fine, but an area control RISK clone + totems is probably not). The criticism from the current Cree people about the inclusion of the Cree people in Civilization 6 highlights this idea, because for at least that tribe they felt that conquest and domination are themes that are contrary to their ways as a people (http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/saskatoon/poundmaker-cree-nation-chief-civ...).

Note: I am NOT an expert on the attitudes and culture of Native American Peoples. I merely provide this advice based on similar discussions that I've seen around the interwebs.

Top
Thu, 03/29/2018 - 16:50
#3
Trepid
Trepid's picture
Offline
Joined: 07/01/2017
Thanks Jay103. I think the

Thanks Jay103. I think the objective is going to actually have to change if I'm using totem poles since they were pretty much used by the northwest peoples, and some of the tribes I want to include did/do not build totems as far as I know.

Top
Thu, 03/29/2018 - 16:55
#4
Jay103
Jay103's picture
Offline
Joined: 01/23/2018
Yeah, as ruy says, the other

Yeah, as ruy says, the other option is to move it into the "fantasy" realm and not reference real tribes at all, and then you can do what you want, while also making it clear that you're paying homage to the real tribes (in a positive way)

Top
Thu, 03/29/2018 - 17:01
#5
Trepid
Trepid's picture
Offline
Joined: 07/01/2017
ruy343 wrote: 2. Make sure

ruy343 wrote:

2. Make sure that the game isn't about conquest or domination of other powers/players (e.g. a Euro-style worker-placement/hand management game where players race for victory points is probably fine, but an area control RISK clone + totems is probably not). The criticism from the current Cree people about the inclusion of the Cree people in Civilization 6 highlights this idea, because for at least that tribe they felt that conquest and domination are themes that are contrary to their ways as a people (http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/saskatoon/poundmaker-cree-nation-chief-civ...).
.

I am planning on it being mostly American style play as it is mostly battle focused. There is lots of trading, raiding, and war. You are trying to gather the resources to build your totem while preventing the other tribes from doing the same. You can slow them down by war parties or raid parties so we're talking about moving your pawns around the board. You obtain resources by actually moving to a territory and drawing from the resource deck (for hunting and gathering). You don't actually use pawns as workers that sit idle. Similar to a mechanic used by Dominion, you are restricted by the cards in your hand (6 at a time).

Top
Thu, 03/29/2018 - 17:04
#6
Trepid
Trepid's picture
Offline
Joined: 07/01/2017
homemade

So it might be best to just go ahead and create my own tribes? That way I can keep the totem theme which I really like: you have to have successfully hunted certain animals (tribe A needs grizzly, skunk, crow, cougar, rattler, and groundhog hides for their totem, but tribe B needs x, x, x, x, x, x). That is when trading can come in handy, as well as raiding.

Top
Thu, 03/29/2018 - 17:32
#7
questccg
questccg's picture
Offline
Joined: 04/16/2011
This is kind of a "borrowed" idea...

In Jamey Stegmaier's Scythe, he defines the land of "Europa" and uses fictitious european-sounding nations.

Keeping in spirit with that ingenuity, why not call your land "Americana" and use fictitious american-sounding nations.

Here are some examples:

  • Kaligadigo: Southern Cayote hunters
  • Yalara: Western Rattlesnake hunters
  • Tebec: Northern Black Bear hunters
  • Unjung: Eastern Red Fox hunters
  • Chibero: Central Great Eagle hunters

If you want more, just let me know... And I'll see what I can come up with.

Cheers!

Update: Added some animals to the list based on some of your input, my own ideas and Google! Enjoy...

Update #2: Just another idea. Why not force players to travel around "Americana" to various Tribe "Territories" and lay their own traps to capture one of the five (5) sacred hides. The winner is the first player to capture all five hides...

Another idea I had is defining AI for the tribes not being played. So if it's a two (2) player game, with AI it would be five (5) tribes, 2 human controlled and 3 AI driven.

And of course you'd have to patrol your territory to try to prevent other tribes from capturing your sacred hide.

These are just ideas – Feel free to disregard them (if they are not to your liking). Just think a five (5) player + AI controlled game would be pretty original.

Update #3: I was picturing something more like "SmallWorld" in terms of board layout and area control with your tribes. You would send out your "Hunters" and they would try to collect hides from other "territories" without getting caught by that tribes' members.

The "Hunt" Mechanic (which would need to be something ORIGINAL) is what would make the game "shine" (new ideas on that front)...

Top
Thu, 03/29/2018 - 22:13
#8
Trepid
Trepid's picture
Offline
Joined: 07/01/2017
questccg wrote: Keeping in

questccg wrote:

Keeping in spirit with that ingenuity, why not call your land "Americana" and use fictitious american-sounding nations.

Here are some examples:

+ Kaligadigo: Southern Cayote hunters
+ Yalara: Western Rattlesnake hunters
+ Tebec: Northern Black Bear hunters
+ Unjung: Eastern Red Fox hunters
+ Chibero: Central Great Eagle hunters

If you want more, just let me know... And I'll see what I can come up with.

Cheers!

Yea yea! This is what I am going to do. Those names are pretty good but I'd like to have lots more. How did you come up with those names? I like Tebec, that's pretty cool. I like names that sound archaic/old/ancient in nature.

questccg wrote:

Update: Added some animals to the list based on some of your input, my own ideas and Google! Enjoy...

Am I missing something in your post? I didn't see any animal names so maybe I just misunderstood.

questccg wrote:

Another idea I had is defining AI for the tribes not being played. So if it's a two (2) player game, with AI it would be five (5) tribes, 2 human controlled and 3 AI driven.

I like this idea a lot and had considered something similar last year when throwing ideas around. One of the most difficult aspects of it would be for me to figure out how to 'control' the AI players. Seeing as how there are going to be multiple pawns on the board (probably), right now I can't figure out how to make that idea work.

Top
Thu, 03/29/2018 - 22:43
#9
questccg
questccg's picture
Offline
Joined: 04/16/2011
Viticulture and co.

Trepid wrote:
...I like this idea a lot and had considered something similar last year when throwing ideas around. One of the most difficult aspects of it would be for me to figure out how to 'control' the AI players. Seeing as how there are going to be multiple pawns on the board (probably), right now I can't figure out how to make that idea work.

Buy a copy of Viticulture by Stonemaier Games... The AI is apparently great in that game and you can use the basic ideas as ways to control other players. That's what I was told by my Developer "The Professor" (Joseph Pilkus III).

Apparently most of the Stonemaier Games have AI and it is relatively understandable how to "adapt" the AI philosophy used in other game for solo modes or just simulating a turn by an AI "robot".

That's what I was told. And Joe used those principles and applied them to "TradeWorlds" for the SOLO AI Deck which acts as an opponent allowing you to play with just one (1) Player.

If you want to ask him yourself, send a PM to "The Professor"... Just Search for the name and choose the Users tab for possible matches. You could simply ask him which game gave him the most inspiration for the "TradeWords" AI Mechanic ... something like that.

For my own AI mechanics, I would look at "Race For The Galaxy" ... I believe the EXPANSION... It includes an AI mode that is sort of like a reference card... it counters your moves with other moves... That too may also help... I can't remember if it's like Space Pirates (Which are 3rd Party players) or if it was like it's own Player... But do some Googling you might find a Video presenting the AI in that game...

Here's the link at 6:08: https://youtu.be/Ngj50RT8I3o?t=6m8s

Top
Sat, 03/31/2018 - 00:34
#10
Trepid
Trepid's picture
Offline
Joined: 07/01/2017
OKay, thanks questccg. I'll

OKay, thanks questccg. I'll check that stuff out.

Top
Sat, 03/31/2018 - 11:55
#11
The Professor
The Professor's picture
Offline
Joined: 10/25/2014
Thanks, Kris! Hello, Trepid!

Kris,

I mentioned to Trepid some ideas to consider when crafting an IA.

Trepid,

Again, pleasure to make your acquaintance. I've worked on the AI for Tradewars and have been involved with the play-testing for the several of Jamey Stegmaier's Scythe expansions, including Invaders From Afar and Rise of Fenris, focusing on the Automa.

Cheers,
Joe

Top
Sat, 03/31/2018 - 13:21
#12
let-off studios
let-off studios's picture
Offline
Joined: 02/07/2011
Tribe Names

Regarding tribe names: If you're seeking a tool to come up with additional names for tribes, locations, etc. then you may want to have a go at this website that has dozens of name generators:

www.fantasynamegenerators.com/tribe-names.php

Top
Sat, 03/31/2018 - 16:03
#13
Trepid
Trepid's picture
Offline
Joined: 07/01/2017
Thanks, I was checking out

Thanks, I was checking out that name generator a couple days ago.

Top
Sat, 03/31/2018 - 22:34
#14
questccg
questccg's picture
Offline
Joined: 04/16/2011
Fantasy Name Generators

let-off studios wrote:
Regarding tribe names... this website that has dozens of name generators...

Hmm... I forgot you asked where I generated the Tribe names I gave as an example. I used the SAME site as @Let-Off but instead used "Real Names" > "Aboriginal names"... Which consists of "Australian Aboriginal Names".

I thought those made better Tribe names (because they were Aboriginal and are real names too). So you might get better names using that generator:

http://www.fantasynamegenerators.com/aboriginal-names.php

I noticed that I had forgotten to explain where "Tebec" came from... Now you know (and knowing is half the battle – G.I. Joe!) The dumbest things my brain remembers from childhood! LOL

Top
Sat, 03/31/2018 - 22:55
#15
questccg
questccg's picture
Offline
Joined: 04/16/2011
Very innovative

The Professor wrote:
Kris, I mentioned to Trepid some ideas to consider when crafting an AI.

No worries, I give credit to whomever deserves it. And it was you who designed "TradeWorlds" AI Deck ... And I remember chatting with you and you said some of the inspiration came from Jamey...

I must have assumed "Viticulture"... But I'm sure Scythe has an AI mode too.

@Trepid: I suggested speaking with @Joe because the AI is very clever in that it uses Character Roles and allows a couple of choices, like "If this" OR "Then this" ... to create some flexibility in how the AI responds on each turn. And as a point of reference EACH CARD is a "Configured Starship" so each card can be deployed too. It's very clever, because it operates much like the "core" game. And what I mean by that is players also choose what cards to be deployed too!

Very impressive and it gives players that feeling that the AI is also playing the game by choosing an Action (Role) / Configuring Starships too.

Here look at this sample:

So the "Admiral" Role is used to command a FLEET of Starships and "attack" the player and if not then the "Trader" Role is used to draw another card too... And there is a development deck which adds "tougher" cards to the mix (of initial AI – As seen in this card example).

Note: I shared this sample card because Mike already shared some AI news to our KS Backers... So nothing really "ground-breaking new"... Since sample cards have been shared, etc. So that's the look of ONE (1) AI card, with the various roles and configuration.

Don't worry, we're not letting any "Cats out of the bag" (so to speak).

Top
Sat, 03/31/2018 - 23:13
#16
Trepid
Trepid's picture
Offline
Joined: 07/01/2017
Thanks

Thanks for all of your responses. I'll look into it more tomorrow since I've had a migraine all day. I can't makes sense of too much right now but I look forward to learning more tomorrow. Thanks again!

Trepid

Top
Syndicate content


forum | by Dr. Radut