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Shinobi - The Clan Wars

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Sperber
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As I already mentioned in my 'Welcome to BGDF' thread I am closing in on finishing the design of a cardgame and playtesting should start soon.

http://www.bgdf.com/node/7690

But then I thought that I would prefer to get some feedback and started a thread on boardgamegeek. Now I would like to present and discuss my game here too. So without any further ado, let's take a look:

Shinobi – The Clan Wars (working title).

In Shinobi players take on the role of a ninja clan. In the capital at the imperial court four royal families strive for power. They plot and scheme against each other and their actions and wishes become missions that the players may take on. For example a famous general should be killed or an important message intercepted.
The players are free to choose which family they want to support and which they want to hinder in their endeavours. This choice is still not a permanent one and players may freely change their allegiance.

If a player decides to take on a mission or contract by a family he will influence the way things are at the imperial court. For example if he kills the general, the family the general belongs to will lose military power – one of three domains of power at the court. The other two being political influence and wealth.

Players will have different interests of course. For example one player might not like that the general is being assassinated and therefore he wants to prevent that. This is actually the heart of the game since it revolves around duels in which two shinobi fight against each other.

Another main focus resides in the preparations for a duel. In each round a player will (most likely) recruit a new shinobi and increase the size and composition of his fighting deck. This fighting deck works just like a deck from your 'ordinary' deckbuilding games like Dominion. That means you draw cards from the deck, use them and then refill your hand for the next turn.
However the deck is not build like in Dominion. You don't buy cards you, draft them like in 7 Wonders. This means at a certain point during a turn the players will be dealt several cards. They choose to keep one card and put it directly into their fighting deck. The cards that they still keep in their hands after choosing one will then be handed over to a neighbour and they receive new cards from the other neighbour.

If you combine these two mechanisms (deckbuilding and drafting) you get deckdrafting. I still don't know if that is the right term but we called it deckdrafting when we played Magic - The Gathering twenty years ago.

So, basically the players recuit shinobis and draft their fighting decks to go on missions for the royal families. There they will most likely engage in duels with another player's shinobi. Depending on the outcome of the mission the power relations at court change and the players need to decide how they will continue in the next turn. After five turns the game ends. The player who had the most influence on how the power struggle ended wind the game.

I guess for the first introduction that should be enough.

I'd like to point out the thread on bgg again since I have already posted some sample cards there.

http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/913288/wip-shinobi-the-clan-wars

Please let me know what you think of my idea so far. I know that it is hard to judge a game simply buy its theme and I will work hard to present you the mechanisms I thought of as soon as possible. However any comments you have for me so far, any advice or critique is more than welcome.

Sperber
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Taken from the 'Welcome to BGDF' thread

JustActCasual wrote:
Really like the sound of the game! Seems like a lot of information, but makes sense and you can always give your players aides. Couple of points that stuck out at me:

~ Having players shout "Let's Duel!!" really loud is cool, but doesn't seem to fit the stealthy theme of ninjas. It can also be really awkward and peer pressury for players who are more introverted.

~It would really be nice if there weren't any dice in the combat system. This may just be a pet peeve, but it feels like a DnD hangover: it works in DnD because the game is literally designed around the combat system. In this game you have a lot more going on, and don't seem to need the dice. It adds time, randomness, and components, resources that you could be using elsewhere. With the drafting and RPS aspects you already have a lot to play with in combat: try to find new solutions that really work with your unique system. Should ninja combat feel random, or more like an elegant dance of cunning and skill?

~You should have a playable prototype about 1/3 of the way through your design process at the latest. It doesn't have to be pretty, it doesn't even have to be the full game, but you need to have something to tinker with. Playtesting should be one of the first steps of a design. I know it can be painful letting your baby idea out into the world, but you really need to see how mechanics interact when other people get their hands on them, and then continuously iterate, integrating new approaches and ideas. Games are fundamentally experience engines, and it's impossible to evaluate a game without seeing people play it.

~Aside: have you considered releasing this as an app? I get the feeling that it would play really well as a slow, almost play-by-email speed game with kind of a calm zen vibe. You could unlock more families, more items, more missions...there's potential. It seems like a neat commute experience with a mixture of calm and action.

Hope that wasn't too harsh, definitely interested in seeing the development of this game. You have a lot to look forward to :)

Sperber
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My answer

Sperber wrote:
JustActCasual wrote:
~ Having players shout "Let's Duel!!" really loud is cool, but doesn't seem to fit the stealthy theme of ninjas. It can also be really awkward and peer pressury for players who are more introverted.

Well, I guess I can put "swing and miss" on that joke. Take a look at this, it might clear things up:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4NJC1I-n_6I

JustActCasual wrote:
~It would really be nice if there weren't any dice in the combat system.

Thanks. I will think about it. Your reasons seem logical. I put the dice in there because it was the easiest way. Maybe something else might be better for the game though. If I find a solution I'll let you know. I think I'm going to try both ways (with and without dice) during playtesting.

JustActCasual wrote:
~You should have a playable prototype about 1/3 of the way through your design process at the latest.

I'll keep that in mind for my next project. (There is a bunch of'em.) In this case it just was so easy to come up with new cards and effects that it looked like the game was designing itself. I was on the finish line before I noticed it and I am not that fast of a tinkerer. My handcrafting skills just couldn't keep up.

JustActCasual wrote:
~Aside: have you considered releasing this as an app?

No, I haven't. Sounds really nice but I have no knowledge of programming whatsoever. I'd need to outsource this project to someone who knows what he's doing. And I don't own iphone or ipad.

JustActCasual wrote:
Hope that wasn't too harsh, definitely interested in seeing the development of this game. You have a lot to look forward to :)

Thank you. I am looking forward. Not only to this game but to work with this community in general. I don't mind harsh words (as long as they are polite) at all. I'll set up a thread for this game in the design section of the forums tomorrow. It's 00:30am in Germany and I need to go to bed or I won't hear the end of it.
Mind if I copy-paste your post there?

larienna
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I am always interested by the

I am always interested by the Ninja Theme and all the board game currently out there are bad in my point of view. If you have a rulebook ready or some material to show, I would be willing to give my comments.

It seems more like an influence game than a tactical stealth killing game.

Sperber
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larienna wrote:If you have a

larienna wrote:
If you have a rulebook ready or some material to show, I would be willing to give my comments.

No, the rulebook isn't finished yet. I will post some pictures of sample cards later.

larienna wrote:
It seems more like an influence game than a tactical stealth killing game.

Apparently that is the first impression everybody has. I have a really hard time explaining the game, I guess.

Well, you do influence what's going on at the court. So I can't deny that. You do that by going on missions and you will definitively engage in duels. More often than not the outcome of a mission will be decided after two players fought it out with a duel.

Tactical? I don't know, really. How would you describe 'tactical'? You do have to make some choices, e.g. which family do you want to support and which missions do you'd like to attend. So, yes, I guess there is some tactic in the game.
Stealth killing? No. The game itself isn't really stealthy, I guess...

And again having a hard time explaining it. I should have been born a native english speaker... ;)

Right now I am working on a sample duel. As soon as I have finished it, I will link the pictures and post the duel here. I guess showing it will be a much better way than trying to explain it.

Although I have to add that I am thinking about JustActCasuals proposal to cut the dice out of the game. That might make the game more tactical and stealthy in the end. We'll see...

larienna
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Most video game like

Most video game like "tenchu", "mini ninja" and "mark of the ninja" represent the tactical aspects of ninjas: "How do I kill this guy"

This is very hard to do in board games due to the hidden movement aspects of ninjas and lack of artificial intelligence.

This is why most ninja board games focus on managing a clan rather than managing the details of a ninja's mission.

I played "Ninjato"

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/50768/ninjato

Which endeded up boring since it was more an accountant game than a ninja game.

I read the rule of "Ninja: Legend of the Scorpion Clan "

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/101013/ninja-legend-of-the-scorpi...

I don't know, for a game that should have taken place in a fantasy world, it lacked of "cool stuff" like Magic and Gadgets.

Most Ninja theme board games out there are mostly funny games and none of them seem really to have catched me.

I don't think a tactical game is necesasrily the best for a boar game, but the interesting part of ninja's in character development and how to use your strength and weakness on a mission. So maybe an adventure game would fit better for a ninja baord game? I'll have to give it some thoughts.

It reminds me of the "Reader is the hero" book series where you played a ninja. I think it was called something like "Way of the tiger" series.

Sperber
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Ninja games tend to be more movie like than history

larienna wrote:
I played "Ninjato"

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/50768/ninjato

Which endeded up boring since it was more an accountant game than a ninja game.

I never played it but what I saw interests me even though I thinkt the ninja theme is not a perfect fit for that game.

larienna wrote:
I read the rule of "Ninja: Legend of the Scorpion Clan "

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/101013/ninja-legend-of-the-scorpi...

I don't know, for a game that should have taken place in a fantasy world, it lacked of "cool stuff" like Magic and Gadgets.

Ah, well Rokugan is a fantasy world but it's main focus still lies on the samurai and even though you have shugenja (priests) with their magic I would say that the role of a bushi is way more important.
So a lack of magic isn't something that I would critizise on a L5R boardgame but instead I would have felt betrayed by the game since it would not represent the world I know and love.
That is, of course, only the case as long as you don't put fantasy stuff in the game where it belongs. A battle theme with demons for example defenitively needs the fantasy aspect. A stand-off between two clans and on uses his (normal human beings) ninja to inflitrate a single stronghold doesn't need it and it would seem out of place, imo.

larienna wrote:
I don't think a tactical game is necesasrily the best for a boar game, but the interesting part of ninja's in character development and how to use your strength and weakness on a mission. So maybe an adventure game would fit better for a ninja baord game? I'll have to give it some thoughts.

Well, my game started out like this. The first premise I had went like this:

I would like to design a boardgame in which players take control of a ninja village, go on missions and over time individualize their ninjas and clan. So on eclan would specialise in swordfighting, another one in weaponless martial arts.

Maybe an adventure game might be a good fit for a ninja themed game. You should try it out.

But I gotta say that at least I've got the 'use your strength and weaknesses' part in my game. It is juust not a stealthy kind of game and has therefore more in common with the anme Naruto or the movie Shinobi from 2005 where Ninjas are not all about hidiing and moving in the shadows but engage in open fights very quickly.

JustActCasual
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Actually the game does a

Actually the game does a pretty good job at incorporating the stealthy aspect overall: 2 of the core mechanics are drafting (semi-secrecy dynamic) and facedown chain building duels (stealth/yomi dynamic). As long as these mechanics are focused on I wouldn't be too worried about a lack of stealth feel to the game.

Sperber
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Confusion

You know what, JustActCasual? It's really depressing if you can't tell anymore what your game is all about. Is there stealthiness in it or not? How much tactics are involved if any?

You're right, of course.

1. No one knows who has which shinobi until he is recruited.
2. The content of the fighting deck is unkown until the first duel. And each round five new unkown cards get included.
3. You can't be sure what kind of attack your opponent's gonna use. Melee. ranged or stealth?
4. The cards that get played are unkown until until they are revealed.

There is enough secrecy in it. Thanks for reminding me.

Sperber
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Detour

I am sorry to do this, since I wanted to talk about my game in detail here too, but I need to send you on a little detour if you would be so kind.

I updated my thread on boardgamegeek. I wanted to post the same thing herem but it seems a little bit complicated to implement images. As far as I know I can only upload images and then make a link to the gallery. However to fully grasp my post the images are needed and I believe it would be to complicated and uncomfortable to force you guys to click on all those single links.

If there is a better way, please let me know.

What I have done is to show a sample turn. I did this to finally end all confusion about stealthiness, secrecy and tactics. I believe that this way I can finally present the game how it is supposed to be.

So I want to ask you politely to head over to boardgamegeek and read my post there. I am sorry for the inconvenience.

http://boardgamegeek.com/article/11102329#11102329

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