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Is anything uncler in these rules? Looking for help

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Lowlarh
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Joined: 04/17/2012

I finished rules for my game and have final version. Main problem for me is; are these rules clearly written? is there anything that is hard to understand?

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/8ii4qxul4gxb55p/AACOxrdoYL-SQD1c5kLdbtiga?dl=0

I am grateful for every comment :-)

questccg
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Joined: 04/16/2011
Typo on page 6

Well there is an "extra" period on Page 6 in the Reinforcements section.

Says "Advanced units (lvl 3 and 4) may be built only in. Hometown..."

The period after "in" is a mistake I believe... Still reading the rest, but the rules seem clearly written and not too difficult to understand.

I will check to see if there is anything else that might be "unclear"! :)

Lowlarh
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Joined: 04/17/2012
thanks for input. Yes, it is

thanks for input.
Yes, it is typo :-)

If only period is problem,then i am happy :-).
If there is something else, I would be grateful if you would point on that

ruy343
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Joined: 07/03/2013
Regarding help:

If you'd like, i could make a google doc that I can make comments to. it would take a while to go through things for clarity without making marks directly on the text.

Lowlarh
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Joined: 04/17/2012
sure... thanks :-)

sure... thanks :-)

Lowlarh
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Joined: 04/17/2012
Ofcourse, if anyone wants to

Ofcourse, if anyone wants to comment wheter he likes or not some rule, or have some questions, i would be grateful for every comment.

kos
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Joined: 01/17/2011
Comments

The rules would benefit from a thorough review by an editor to fix the typos, grammar, etc. For example, there are punctuation errors throughout and multiple instances of incorrect grammar/spelling, missing/extra spaces, paragraphs/headings not aligned, etc. I won't list them here because you really need an editor to work with you on the document to clean it up. Certainly the artwork and presentation is of such high quality that you don't want typos to detract from the player's impression of the game.

However, some feedback on the rules themselves:

- It is not clear what happens to spells once you use them. Is the card discarded after use?

- The Game Round on page 6 identifies 4 phases, but phase 4 is never explained in the text.

- Inconsistency of "movement tokens" (page 6) vs "tactics tokens" (elsewhere).

- Inconsistency of "army phase" (page 6) vs "tactics phase" (elsewhere).

- I couldn't figure out how much a Settlement costs to build (page 6).

- Recruitment: I couldn't find where the term "population cost" is not explained. Also the sentence in which it is used is unclear. Does it mean that if the population is 3 then I can build 3 units? Do they have to be the same type or can I mix-n-match?

- Page 11: I don't recall seeing the term "Supply" anywhere else previously. What does it mean?

- Page 11: Does "granary" mean "village"?

- Moving through elemental gates: It is unclear if moving through an elemental gate is considered a free move, or does it cost your move action? Also, since it is optional, in which order is this decision made (since player 1's decision to move through a gate may affect player 2's decision to stay or move)?

- Border combat: Say Armies A and B are fighting each other in a border combat, while army C has moved into Army B's hex. Is army C involved in the border combat or not? If Army A wins the border combat and thus moves into B's hex, does this now initiate a combat with Army C?

- Retreat: Can an army retreat into a hex which contains enemy units? If so, it creates a whole range of complications, because it makes the order of combat resolution important (Army A retreats into a hex in which a combat is already in progress). For the sake of simplicity, it may be worth saying that a unit cannot retreat into a hex containing enemy units.

- Order of combat resolution: More generally, how is the order of combat resolution determined? Even if units cannot retreat onto an enemy-held hex, the order of combat resolution could have a big effect if two enemy armies, each involved in separate battles, want to retreat to the same hex.

- Retreat: Can you retreat through a magic gate?

I hope these comments help.

Regards,
kos

Lowlarh
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Joined: 04/17/2012
wow kos, that helped a lot.

wow kos, that helped a lot. You really took your time and pointed on lot of mistakes.

I forgot to explain end turn phase and supply, but now it is all in the in the book. I have all rules in my head, and didn't noticed it is missing. After so much rewriting it is hard to keep focus sometimes :-)

The inconsistencies are now removed, and yes granary is village :-) I changed from buildings to settlements, liked it more this way, but forgot to change it there :-)
As for the magic gates, this order is not important, because if one wants to move through gate, there is no possibility for army on other side to retreat (because passing through gates is resolved before ordinary movement). And I will make all season cards that only 1 element is active per season (so other gates are closed)

Thanks for questions about border combat and retreat and combat resoulution. I added new rule for combat order (it is on page 9 now). This were the things that could really hurt the game, I am glad that you pointed on it.

Thanks again for your help kos, you did a great job

Lowlarh
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BTW new version of the

BTW new version of the rulebook with improvements after kos's help is online. It is the same link as in my first post:
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/8ii4qxul4gxb55p/AACOxrdoYL-SQD1c5kLdbtiga?dl=0

kos
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New version

The new version is clearer and has fixed up the rules issues I mentioned earlier.

Where to go from here depends on what stage of the game development cycle you are at. For playtesting, what you have is perfectly suitable. However, before you head towards printing you really need a copy editor to clean it up for you. There are numerous minor grammatical/editorial issues throughout, but a good copy editor could get these fixed up easily. If you know a native English speaker with good written skills in your local area that's probably the easiest way, otherwise you could ask on here for a native English speaker to help proof/edit it.

Overall, the game rules look good, and the artwork is stunning.

How much playtesting have you done? Which parts of the game do you think really work well?

Regards,
kos

Lowlarh
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Joined: 04/17/2012
I plan to go in crowdfunding

I plan to go in crowdfunding campaign in few months, but first i must have all things ready. Main problem is that I am living in Europe (Germany) so I can't go to Kickstarter (will go to indiegogo instead). Currently I am looking if there are any good game reviewers based in Europe...If anyone knows, I will be thankful for recommendation.

Game was finished and playtested, I playtested it more than a year and half with different groups...
But I think game has too much components, so it would be smart to lower that number... I think I will return map to older version (There will be 3 rings of tiles around center not 4). This will also help to reduce game time,
I plan the game length to be 2-3 hours. Some rules will need be tweaked a bit, but the game will be even more dynamic because of these changes :-)

Thanks for advice for editor, I will ask someone to help me when everything else will be ready.

For the cover I must give credit to Ive Svorcina (he is colorist for Marvel Comics) , and to rest of illustrations to Andrej Đukić

I think the best part of the game is movement. People really like it, and with everything happening at the same time there is great feeling of immersion.
Players can't just say: I attack. They must predict opponent movement, and see if there will be reinforcements from neighboring tiles. There is no turtling in game, armies are shifting their positions all the time.

There are situations where 3 or more armies fight for same tile. I thought it will be problem, but people seems to enjoy it. As for the combat, it has "Heroes of might and magic" feel, and people like it.

jonu5123
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Your Rulebook and other questions!

Hey there! Im a bit new to this site and looking for topics that may answer questions about the current board game im working on. I would love to check out your RUles and give feedback though Im not an editor or great with written material. THough I have written a bunch of classes for my school, its not the same. I guessss i can say I am creating a rule book myself for my board game and almost completed. So maybe i have an idea of what to look for??? Can i ask two things though:
Im not much of a grammar person as I am having someone proofread my rules whom i work with. However I have over 20 years or illustration experience and 6 years teaching video game art. If you ever wanted critique on art let me know! Im not here to boast or say im better than any one else, but thats what I do. I critique students all the time on anatomy, proportions, design, color, etc. So I would be happy to give any art feedback. Hell, I myself ask for art critiques as well since i always miss the simple things.

Also, I love how you created your rulebook backdrop. Where and what program did you use to get the borders, etc on your Rulebook? I need some kind of border and art design for my game.

So much art i need, so little time!

It would be great to hear from you!!!

Lowlarh
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Joined: 04/17/2012
Hi, I created most things in

Hi,

I created most things in photoshop. Only gold borders and gold letters were done in After Effects (actually it is program for video - but I have more experience with it so it was faster for me to create color there :-)

Any comments and critiques are welcome, so yes, please :-)
And thanks for your time.

btw, i decided i have to much components (to high cost of production) so i decieded to cut some of them and make map smaller (it was huge before, now is normal).But because of that I had to make some small changes to rules-mostly about movement - so new version of rules is available

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/8ii4qxul4gxb55p/AACOxrdoYL-SQD1c5kLdbtiga?dl=0

jonu5123
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Joined: 12/12/2014
Yeah i was talking with a

Yeah i was talking with a production company and they wrote me up a quote sheet of over $50,000. Just by adding one color on a die it was bumped up a couple grand. I can deal with 50k as long as i get the funding. Expensive stuff!
So, yeah i use after effects alot, at least i used to, to render out turntables of my game (video game) art. Im quite familiar. Though im curious how you got that template in the background of your rulebook? MS Word? Very cool!
So i know you are interested more in the rules and gameplay, i love giving critiques on art. And if i cross any line please tell me, like i said its what i do.

Looking at the Human Sheet, i like the layout of the symbols and icons!. Maybe for aesthetic purposes, have each piece (example: Pikeman, archer, etc) separated by a few pixels like you did on the left side, orrrr keep the images tight like you did on the right side. Or maybe put a thin 1 pixel border around each image? Just an idea. Center image is sweet, feels a tad empty like it may need something there? Any other slots you are adding here?

Was the rulebook all your own art? or from someone you know? I like the layout, really easy to follow! Are alot of these images placeholders? I think the Victory Point Counters and the SUpply Counters may be a tad hard to read right away with the drop shadows on them. I usually turn my drop shadow distance to 0 and have an even spread around the type. Again, just an idea. Things i see from students all the time that they adjust and becomes way clearer.

The Gold under the black text feels a tad strong. Heres a very cool link to making buttons...http://naldzgraphics.net/tutorials/40-best-photoshop-tutorials-for-creating-buttons-and-badges/
I havent used the site yet, but I do plan to take some of these things they go over into account when designing.
Once again, i havent read the rules, as I am an artist. Looks very interesting. I will post my game up in the next few months, alot of my art are placeholders taken off the internet save for some of the graphic elements of the game.

Though my site is still being rearranged you can see what i do, both 2d and 3d art. Just so you know im not some average joe putting my two cents in.
www.usiakart.com

Lowlarh
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Yea, production is very

Yea, production is very expensive... i think about publishing game without any plastic parts (except dices) - only cardboard tokens - hope this will help to lower the prices...
Sorry, I am not sure about the template, you mean on that burned paper texture?
I started creating it in after effects, and than in photoshop used clone/stamp + a lil bit collor corection. I guess it can be done in Photoshop only, but I am more proficient with AE :-)

Thanks for your thoughts about race sheets. I'll play around in photoshop, separating units by few pixels seems good idea. Only thing is there may be some changes in final versions - maybe no pictures for units but symbols - there are 24 different units, and it may be to expensive to hire artist to draw 24 pictures, so there will be simpler symbols instead. I currently have this prototipe with pictures from interent, but although it looks really nice can be little bit confusing...I ll think more about it, it will depend mostly on budget.

Thanks for advice on counters,I was thinking too that these shadows are bit to much...

About the art in rulebook - cover is done by one my friend , and almost all other illustration by other. So most things in rulebook are original. But most things in race sheets are just placeholders.

I agree with gold button, but it was just a quick and lazy job from me ( just resized the golden line that is on top and bottom of every page).. will make something better later :-)

BTW, you have some great art on your site. Just from your comments it is obvius you know what you are talking about, and that site just gives you more credibility.
I am interested in art in design as mouch as in rules and gameplay.. so please, give your opinions, and don't worry about crossing the line. I need more feedback, and it really helps to know your opinion,

sry, for late reply, these days I am short with my time, to many working overtime these days :-(

jonu5123
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Joined: 12/12/2014
Thanks!

Yeah i dont mind the price I just want to make a really nice looking game. There is a game on Kickstarter called RUm and Bones with amazing plastic miniatures. I would love to see how they went about their process to make them. I just need 4-6 miniatures, where they have about 20 different ones.

And as far as your template, yeah the burned image. Im just wondering how you got a backdrop into a PDF or rulebook format in the background of your writing?

THanks for the comments on my site! It need a major overhaul and only the 3D character modeling is the most recent ( i just added a Santa Claus model in the character modeling section tonight!). I need to replace some of my illustration since its over 5 years old, and my style has much improved since then as well as my skills. Im hoping to possibly do most of the artwork for my board game, so ill be adding new content in the next few months? Years? to my site. Right now im going through and replacing old 3D art since my focus right now is video games and teaching. I think my illustration is good enough for now to leave up as a backup for my experience and 3D.
I appreciate your trust in my judgement as well, and my credibility. I haven't been teaching art for the last 5 years for nothing. A lot of times as I critique others, i never seem to follow my own rules on my art.

Anyway, i realllllly need to get an idea of how to get this game going once the art is done. Advanced Prototype is all finished and went through several playtests, but I cant really send an online version because there is way too many pieces to print out, glue, etc.

Lowlarh
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Joined: 04/17/2012
I made template background in

I made template background in photoshop.
Text I did in Open office. There is option to export it as pdf. This pdf I then imported into Photoshop (it will give you choice to import as page or image, choose page). You have text with transparent background.
Then I edit - resize, cut&paste etc, above the background.
Then I export every single page,again as pdf.
In the end I create multi page document by using File > Automate > PDF presentation.
I am sure there is some easier way, but i didn't know to do it :-)

There is really nice art on that site, and I am sure you can have really good artwork for your game. Santa Claus is really nice btw. And breaking the rules you teach is natural, you know them well enough, so you don't have to use them as guide all time. Best art always comes after breaking the rules, following every rule makes everything to predictable.
But yeah, please give criticize everything you don't like. It is always better to have proffesional opinion before printing the game, not after :-)

jonu5123
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Joined: 12/12/2014
Well, i got your Rules, so

Well, i got your Rules, so hope over the next week or so I will take a look at the art. What are you wanting your style to be? Are you looking for the cartoony realistic style you have, or are you trying to make it look non-cartoony but more realistic? Are you going for perfect anatomy and design? Some game designers like the fact that poor color choices, wrong anatomy, and other issues fit well with their design. NOT that im saying 'poor' as in terrible, but they give it that look. I think you know what i mean? Some games are just meant to be wacky. Take a game called Epic Spell Wars of the Battle Wizards: Duel at Mt. Skullzfyre. Everything is meant to be zany!
ANyway, ill critique it as if you were going for a nice solid d and d look? Basically what i critique my students.

jonu5123
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Joined: 12/12/2014
Question about your game

So I was curious. I have some people wanting to playtest my game, which would require me to upload PDF files of my rules and tokens for them to Print out and create. Although I would love to share my games, I'm just wondering if it is a wise idea to upload to someone I dont really know. How do you feel about this when you upload your rulebooks?

Lowlarh
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Joined: 04/17/2012
I do not have easy answer to

I do not have easy answer to this question. I have been told that it is highly unlikely that someone will steal your whole game. Designers usually have their own projects, and publishers will probably not just steal the game... that would mean that they have insane confidence that your game is so good that they will have profit. And stealing designers games just brings bad reputation. More closer to reality is that if you send them your game they will reject you :-)
As for the some special element of your game... I don't know.. that is how gaming evolves. We all borrow from other games ( for example,what if 6 sided dice is copyrighted? - lots of games would not then be published)
Ultimately, it is your decision, but I think it is not good to be overprotective. It will just hinder your progress. If you ask me, I would not have problems publishing it.

jonu5123
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Thanks, Yeah I have to be a

Thanks,

Yeah I have to be a little over protective. I had artwork stolen from me in the past and used in a book, and I didn't see one penny, nor did I have any grounds to sue because I never copyrighted the art. Now, for playtesting I want to try and keep it between people I know right now or at small groups if I am there. Im not about to ship my game components off to some random playtester on this site and take that Risk. Yes we are all honest, right, but I have to play it safe. E-maiing all my art and components is not a wise idea.

Thanks for your input!

Lowlarh
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Joined: 04/17/2012
Oh, I was not talking about

Oh, I was not talking about artwork. I was talking about the rules. Artwork is something completely different, because unlike the rules of game it is easy to steal and use anywhere.
For the artwork solution is simple. Put watermarks on every piece you want to protect. I very often sent my works to my customers for review, and watermark helped them to stay honest and pay for work :-)

jonu5123
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Joined: 12/12/2014
Thanks! I did that for some

Thanks! I did that for some of my company work (watermark). Definitely a good idea.
I been meaning to get to your rulebook art but been getting super busy with teaching starting soon, and working on my game while i can. Also teaching my girlfriends kids basic drawing lessons. ALmost like a home schooling. Time is flying way too fast to do everything i want!

Lowlarh
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Joined: 04/17/2012
Yeah, I know, never enough

Yeah, I know, never enough time... important to use it smart :)
For artwork...hmm... not though about stealing art :-)... actually it will be good idea to remove for few days this version :-)
I made some rules more simple, so I need to put new version anyway... with watermarks :-)
Btw... your opinion on art? Do you like it?

jonu5123
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Joined: 12/12/2014
Art Critique

well i like the icons you are using for the 'Human Sheet', though maybe some of the icons could be a tad bigger (like the horse in the Supply) section.
The art in the rulebook is all dependant on what you are going for. Are you going for realistic, cartoony, mixed? Are you trying to get good anatomy, poses, etc? If you are going for a more realistic approach then there could be some changes made to a few of the pictures.

I think the front cover works well, with the horseman being in the rule of thirds part of the page. Wondering if that Yeti creature next to the horse could be a tad bigger or even more menacing. If i had time to draw something up i would. By the way, how do you upload images here? I was going to re-draw your goblin dude just for kicks.

The knight on page 4 seems a bit stiff and symetrical. Its a cool straight on pose and a kinght like this shown in a front pose, would probably work better than a 3/4 pose. But he seems symetrical like i said, and maybe a bit obese? Or is that your intention? Knees are a bit pronouced too, or is that armor?
Oh and when i say symmetrical i just mean that sometimes its good to add some asymmetry to the character. If i can figure how to upload an image here i could do a 'draw over' on the image to show you what im thinking of.
You also want to pay attention to a silhouette of a drawgin. Meaning if i made this knight completely black could you still tell what it is? The negative space around the drawing is just as important as the positive space of the drawing. Maybe a good example would be angling the sword sheath out more to break the silhoette better. This is something I talk about alot when teaching character design.

The goblin on page 5 is ok. Itd be cool to get a more exaggerated pose. You could use the same pose, but maybe angle the shoulders back more, the hand and foot towards us could be a tad tad bigger.....so right now i just did a quick sketch of this goblin creature. When i return home this weekend i can scan it in and show you.

The skeleton on the horse - this poses the same question do you want it stylized like this or realistic? If realistic then the anatomy is off. Damn, if i had time i would love to sketch more stuff up to show you. Im not saying anything is wrong at all with the art, depending on what you are going for.

I think the strongest point of your rulebook is your use of icons, symbols, and the layout. I love your layouts.

Remember this is just my opinion from what i teach students and doesnt mean i am right and you have to change anything. Its just what I notice and what i would do myself if i were to change the art. I just did a character sktch of a Wizard. The design process took over a week for this single character - focusing on every detail and design of the character. Making sure all parts of the drawing had some kind of interesting aspects to it. This could even mean the curvature of a robe sleeve, or how much an arm sticks out, or the position of the thumb with a fireball in the characters hand. I spend hours and hours with each drawing i create before its finalize. Then after im finished i dont color the drawing for a few days, JUST in case i have a design change within that time. I hate when i finish something, only to find out a week later I could have design one little aspect a tad better. But at some point I have to let go and move on to the next piece.
Ill be having over 400 drawings for my game, and each drawing will take time designing. I have an Industrial design artist helping me with the art. He doesnt have the style i want for my game, but he does some damn good designs i will be transferring over to my style. So much to do

anyway, i really hope that helps. I only offer my suggestions. I just wish i had the time to really sketch some stuff out. I wil be updating my website over the next few months with art i create for my board game, replacing old art. There is a major style and improvement to my art over the last few years since i put stuff on my site in the illustration section. Working in 3D reallllly has improved my eye for 2D

Lowlarh
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Joined: 04/17/2012
wow, thanks for such a great

wow, thanks for such a great post.

I would like to have realistic art with a bit darker touch, like in the cover. This done by the guy who works as colorist for Marvel... Drawing is good, but he colors are totally what I wanted. And I am really happy with it
Other art is by other artist (not originally drawn for me, he did it for practicing) ...I may use it before publishing ... later we'll see if I will leave it or take other art :-). I know both artists personaly, so they did me a favor.
With this other pics I am not 100% satisfied, but I am not so good with budget, so I take what is offered :-).

I upload using Dropbox... then just put dropbox link. You can download direct from web.. or I can send you invitation if you send me email on PM :-) (it is the same for you I think, but with invitation I get extra 500mb of Storage :-). Basic program is free, and is really good. You just copy/paste documents in Dropbox folder, right click on it and create a link, which you can copy hear on forum :-)

I did all design with the cards and layout of rulebook and sheets. When going for print, I will redesign everything, because there are some details that I see are wrong. Thank you for compliment on layout, I really put lot effort in it... :-)

And for 400 drawings... it is huge amount...I am sure it will be beautiful game, but I will suggest you that you don't use everything on one single project. I understand if you do it for your enjoyment, but 400 hundred pictures are probably thousands of hours of working.. and I am sure it is not that profitable. I personaly wanted to have around 30-40 pictures but it is just too expensive for me. In lot of places i can use icons instead of pictures, so I will see what to do when/if i will be publishing the game.

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