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Collectible TCG vs Non-Collectible CCG, Benefits?

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Zodiak Team
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I've always loved TCGs and was thinking about making my game Zodiak Legends a collectible card game. That was until someone suggested a non-collectible version with expansions and full sets.

What are some of the key differences between collectible and non-collectible card games? Can anyone give me some solid pros and cons between the 2?

I'd like to know how this effects:
Tournament Play
Collectiblity
Trading
Deck Building
Player Strategies/Play style
and getting engulfed into this fantasy world I've worked to create.

Tob
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Hmm

As a detractor of CCGs, I've always felt that the key difference between CCGs and Non-CCGs is money and strategy respectively. For CCGs, the kid with the richest parents is at an advantage and for Non-CCGs the kid who is the best strategist is at an advantage.

It has also been my experience that CCGs tend to "get house-ruled". However, I don't know if this is due to the game itself or the type of person playing the game. Two factors are at work here. 1. CCGs tend to be overly complex due to all the cards and the need to cover all possibilities of card interaction. 2. "Collectibility" - some people just like the cards. When these two things come together and interest in the cards is greater than the interest in the game, the game tends to get played out of convenience rather than by the book. Age seems to be a factor as well; the younger the player, the more interest in the monsters (cards) over the game.
Compare this to a Non-CCG like Bridge or anything else. Given the constant set of finite cards, the game focuses on strategy and not who can afford the most cards from which to build the best hand/deck. With Non-CCGs there also is considerably less (if any) 'open interpretation' of the rules. There are no open-ended features of Bridge, so there's no confusion as to how to play; everyone uses the same rules.

My opinion is that if you don't have a 30 minute animated TV show based on your game airing at 4pm on school days, don't bother making your game a CCG. If you feel like your game is aimed more at gamers than monster-loving children, keep your game a closed-system and forget about the collectibility aspect.

Dralius
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Tournament Play; In CCGs some

Tournament Play; In CCGs some players will have better cards because they have more money to spend. Not an issue in LCGs.

Collectiblity; LCGs are not collectable. You get the whole set. CCGs are very collectable since its difficult to get everything.

Trading; No need to trade in LCGs, you either own the game or not. With CCGs trading cards you have duplicates of is common.

Deck Building; CCG’s Player with more cards have more options. LCGs provide a level playing field.

Player Strategies/Play style; CCG’s once again the person with more money has more options. LCGs provide a level playing field.

Zodiak Team
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You guys make some valid

You guys make some valid points. Though the Zodiak Universe is vast and we have quite a story built around it, it might be better to create an LCG and tweek the game so that instead of random creatures and decks that you can buy 12 different sets (1 for each sign) straight form the get go and have each Sign provide a different play style. Than I'll allow for players to mix and customize their builds from these sets as long as they don't use conflicting signs in their deck/team.

But if I do it that way is it still a LCG or a bad/restricted CCG?

Dralius
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If each of the 12 sets is

If each of the 12 sets is complete then it’s a LCG. LCGs like other games can have expansions. Yours will just come out all at the same time.

Tob
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Semantics

Zodiak Team wrote:
But if I do it that way is it still a LCG or a bad/restricted CCG?

Is it important to classify your game as either?

And given the choice, would you call your game a "bad/restricted CCG"?

In my personal (crazy) opinion (worth at least 8 times what you're paying for it), it's always better to be original and forge new paths than try to force yourself into someone else's definition/expectation of what you should be.

You: "Is it just ice cream or is it a sundae without syrup?"

Me: "Do I have to know to eat it?"

Zodiak Team
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Yes you must eat it!

When I asked that, I was more so asking from a consumer stand point rather than a creative one.

"I don't respong to the "Why's" of life" -Kevin Smith

I have my heart set on this game and I plan to make it the way I want but I'm just concerned about how to catagorize it so that it may seem appealing and not trival. If I say this is an LCG but make custom decks and buy addition sets do I sound stupid? was more so the question.

Tob
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Echo

I'm with Dralius; you have a game with Expansion Sets.

As for marketability, pitch it as "customizable". Players can buy whatever thematic decks/sets appeal to them and leave the rest out. This is a FEATURE, not a restriction.

Stormyknight1976
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So you can say, LCCG?

LCCG= LIVING CUSTOMIZABLE CARD GAME? This is what my LCCG will be. Was having a hard time figuring out what to catergorize, after reading what Fantasy Flight came up with that LCG terminology. But that was earlier this year.

Zodiak Team
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Right!

I just read this awesome post on BGG that layed out the information for LCG:

http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgamefamily/5337/living-card-game

I'm dead set on doing an LCCG now! 12 Different sets (possibly 13 for the dreaded 13th sign of the Zodiak). I was going to enter the Korean Card Game Contest but with this change I might have to considerer some things befor I can even enter.

Do you guys have any further suggestions on how to better this LCCG system? What things I should take into consideration that other LCG's or LCCG's have over looked?

Stormyknight1976
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Just read the blog

Your right. It was awesome. Other than the 5 things the blog talked about, I think you take a look on how you set up the cards for the playing field. When you playtest, does the cards sit on the field over a period of time? If so, change the layout of the cards on the field that will loosen up the wrench in the gears to draw from card pool smoother and not lagging.

Stormyknight1976
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Since we are talking about LCCG'S

Just calculated that with the decks my LCCG has, I have 4 years and two months to sell a deck a month. It consists of two novels. The first novel or series has 40 titles. The second novel has 10 decks. The genre is high fantasy LCCG. When a player buys a box chapter, they will be able to read a chapter or a leaf lit to understand where they are in the world. Who they meet and gain as allies and gain as enemies.

Zodiak Team
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Units are placed on the field

Units are placed on the field at the beginning of the game and remain there for the entire game until your opponent destroys them but Enchantment cards only last a turn and are never sitting around.

Also as for as the book and novel situation I'm not sure if that would really work very well for me. I wasn't planning on writing novels with each expansion release.

Stormyknight1976
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Novels

Thats what I am doing. Its something that i have been working on. Silly Zodiak Team. I think you misread what my LCCG is all about. Its just an added feature for the game and another way to create an immersible world for the players. The players can read the leaf lit novels or just play the game or combine them.

Lowpass
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No CCG-Fan

Zodiak Team wrote:
You guys make some valid points. Though the Zodiak Universe is But if I do it that way is it still a LCG or a bad/restricted CCG?

I don't have a lot of experience in LCG- and CCG-card games, but I'm glad you decided to go the LCG-way. For me, LCG-games have 2 huge advantages and I think, your game will still have them, even if you stretch the borders:

- If you know the game or the specific expansion, you really know all of it - you don't need to look up internet sites to skim through all the available cards, just to be prepared for everything you haven't seen yet. Some players may find it fun to be surprised by unexpected cards while playing - but I always found this quite annoying, especially when you have to ask your oponent for an explanation on the card's effect (I always felt it makes you look stupid and unexperienced). The freaks, of course, know them all and may find it boring if their oponents first have to check the card texts because they didn't knew it yet.

- Secondly and much more important: LCG normally are ready to be played by more than 1 player. If you have (a) guest(s) and want to play a game, you just can take your copy of the game with all the expansions you want to include and it's perfectly ready. With CCGs, I find it quite difficult to play with people who don't collect the cards too. You would have to provide decks for them - but if you don't have a huge collection of cards, you normally have only 1 really good deck, maybe some experimental stuff and some decks you actually know they aren't that good. So what do you do? This game isn't going to be fun.

Zodiak Team
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I agree. I feel like there

I agree. I feel like there something kind of awesome about LCG-esk games. I like that someone can pick up a deck and enter into any game with help and support from other players and be for the most part on equal ground.

Btw if you want to learn a little about the game and see some pics here's my post on Board Game Geek. http://boardgamegeek.com/article/10212233#10212233

Also I can't call the game an LCG since that's a trademark of Fantasy Flight so any suggestions on what it could classify as?

Stormyknight1976
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Calling it an LCG?

I agree with Zodiak. I have also pondered about this categorization dilema. Other than TCG's and CCG's, what do we categorize our game as?

Stormyknight1976
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What about NCCG?

Was thinking of the abbreviation above. NCCG = NOVEL CUSTOMIZABLE CARD GAME? It doesn't have that unique roll of your tongue when you say LCG. Any suggestions?

Lowpass
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DCG

DCG - Dynamic Card Game
UCG - Unlimited Card Game
ECG - Extendable Card Game

CGBL - Card Game beyond limits :-)

...what's with the term "Designer card game"? Just read that in the Wikipedia-article about Dominion. Never heard that one before.

larienna
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I recently made an analogy

I recently made an analogy with some video online games and collectible card games.

In some online games, especially face book, people have the option to pay real money in order to skip some tasks that could be done in the game for free but that would require more time. There is a Xbox video games that allowed you to buy 40000 gold for a fee. So they allow the player to cheat the game for a price.

Collectible is almost the same thing. You can either take time to collect and trade card to get what you want. Or if you have the money, you can simply cheat and get the deck you want. The only difference is that accumulating cards the regular way also cost money.

As for your game, I would stay that you should stay a way from collectible games. This way you will get more control on your game and will be able to fix issues more easily with expansions.

as for other type of card game, I event thought of DCG: Designable Card Game. A game that supply rules for players to design their own cards.

Zodiak Team
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Design their own cards?

As in they have the tools to create and make their own cards? Or do you mean they can customize their own deck builds?

Lowpass
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Designing

Since Dominion is called "Designer card game" it's design as in "design your own deck"... but I'm glad I'm not the only one who hasn't heard that term yet. I find it quite misleading.

For me, it's just a deck building game - so the most obvious term would be "Expandable deck building game".

larienna
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Quote:As in they have the

Quote:
As in they have the tools to create and make their own cards? Or do you mean they can customize their own deck builds?

Design their own cards.

This could probably only be achieved as Print and Play or a Video game.

The concept is simple, I first had the idea for Duel Masters CCG where each ability is given a cost and the strength of a monster has a cost.

For example, if the strength is cost 1 per 1000 strength, then a 5000 strength monster would cost 5. Then you can reduce the strength of the monster by adding abilities.

For example, let say the "blocker" ability cost 2000, if I add this ability to the monster above, I get a cost 5, 3000 strength blocker creature.

So the idea is to supply new abilities as the game expand and maybe revise the cost of older abilities.

I remember designing cards with the MTG editor, unfortunately I could not balance the cards because I did not have the ability cost, but it was so much fun to do.

Stormyknight1976
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Going to use NCCG.

I am going to just go with the NCCG : Novel Customizable Card Game. This is the best way to categorize my card game.

Zodiak Team
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Makes sense. I think for me

Makes sense. I think for me perosnally ECG will work better.

Any suggestions on how to break down deck types and play styles between the 12 (or 13) different Zodiak signs?

Libra - Seeks knowledge: Draw cards, Look at hands, Arrange card on top of the deck
Virgo
Gemini
Aries - Warring: Starts off with more attack stats, Does more physical based attacks
Scorpio
Sagittarius
Cancer - Well Protected: Higher Defense, Protects other Units
Pices
Aquarius
Taurus
Leo
Capricorn

What do you guys think? Since this is an ECG they need to play different and have different strengths no?

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