Hello all A few questions on self publishing....

Mon, 01/09/2012 - 08:15

#1

JaffetC

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Joined: 09/19/2011

not knocking you down, or disrespecting...

Not to knock you out or anything, but from what I read. It looks like your friends, family, and yourself enjoy your husbands game. HOWEVER, what have you verified from a complete blind test play? What have you found, learned, and experienced from these situations?

Psychologically speaking, and this is something ALL designers live by. You wont entirely know how good, or great your game is until you have made your game fall into somebody that has never seen it before and DOESNT know you personally.

Friends will always enjoy your games, most friends wont want to hurt your feeling to tell you this. However a complete stranger will def. tell you how they felt while playing the game. I've test played games before, some which I will not mention to who. And while my friend and I enjoyed the game. we played the game how we would a first time. Considering it was the first time we saw the rules sheets and components. Safe to say we, because we are gamers, we found a big problem in the game that the designer was not aware of. The reason was, a specific ability in the game meant, that the person who reached said ability won the game. regardless of reaching the actual goal of the game. So while we played for a good 40 minutes, when my friend reached that particular ability, I had absolutely no way of winning the game. When we brought this up to the designer he saw, and was excited that somebody gave the feed back he was looking for. I havent played the new version of it, but i am sure that the game is not how it was when we first played it.

So, the question here is. How many of those 150,000 test plays were from strangers?

but to answer your 3 questions...

How hard is it to take a new game to the market on your own? "blood, sweat, and tears Hun; remember that, It will not be easy, but it can be very well worth it"

And is it possible to gain success without a distributor? "I believe that yes there is a possibility, however the work a distributor will do, you will now do. so you will have to keep track of who you are sending what to and so on and so forth. because of this you will see a pay out right away as opposed to "at the end of the quarter". which if this is a new game, many distributors will not pay upfront. Be very careful with a distributor. some go under and so the bank reposes anything found in their property. so make sure you get your product!"

I tend to think that you can. But how hard is it to gain game store and the likes trust about the saleability of your product? "since you consider your self a Marketing Guru, this really shouldn't be a question you'd want us to answer. Consider the fact that many items on shelves make it to shelves on marketing alone. Take the Snuggy, that mess is all marketing, and as you know, marketing does work... so if you are willing to do the work for it. Why not? do you not trust in your product? Could your product be "better"? these are all question you have to be willing to be proud of answer, if not... well, you know what comes next." :D

Good luck in your adventure, and do what you do best :D

Mon, 01/09/2012 - 23:47

#2

stratixgame

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Joined: 01/08/2012

Thank you for your response!

Thank you for your response! :)
I totally understand where you are coming from. lol I should have been more specific and went into some more detail. These Days saying that you did "play tests" could mean ... "we got a bunch of friends together to play". The 150,000 play tests were mostly blind with 200-500 being from friends/ family at the time. That all happened years and years ago. They had a guy that worked in the toy industry helping them through all it. Including the copyright. Of course since then it has been played thousands more times (if no tens of thousands). But I don't include that in the actual "play tests" because well... playing and play tests are two different things. Hell I was introduced to the game when my husband and I did not even know each other. And LOVED it immediately. It seriously has a cult following that branches out from friend to friend to people we do not know. The playability is there. Right now people are being introduced to it and making there own board and pieces... I have seen some of these very crude designs... uhg. The final design (did you take a look?) is very streamlined. The box will even have that "WOW" factor. We want people to want to by it just by looking at the box, not even knowing what comes inside.

I guess taking a game to the market is almost like any other product then. That is what I am getting from you answers. Taking a new product to the market is old hat to us. You know those helmets that attach to paintball face masks? That was mostly me. When It came time to expand for the growing demand my husbands partner flipped his lid. I guess he was afraid of success or something. After all the hard work I put into cold calling thousands of stores and fields... getting them to TRY one or two, arguing (well you get the point, blood sweat and tears right) they were finally taking large orders and we were read to mass produce. Then the company folded. And 5 years latter JT has our very same design EVERYWHERE, including Wallmart *sigh*.. Accept these days with the ability to have viral videos and a free way to mass market you product to hundreds of thousands... I think it will be a lot easier. I am already working on creating a buzz. Your right... if the snuggie can make it... sheesh.

I would really like to know what you all think of the "look" of it. Again the pic is on my profile. Its a 2-4 player strategy game that is much like chess but updated and new. For 1 you have 2-4 player instead of only 2. There are "safe" spaces you can move onto and draw a card. The card allow you to recover pieces, loose pieces, move pieces and move pieces onto more "safe" Recon pack spaces. It has a very classic timeless feel to the game. And just from a marketing standpoint its a game that can easily make it into the chess, checkers, Chinese checkers category if not just as classic as battleship.

I guess I was really just looking to be reassured about the Game industry. But From the research that I have been doing after asking my question... it looks like this industry is going strong. We will eventually want a distributor I think. But we will want a BIG name distributor. Can you tell that I am in it for the long run? I am a very hard nosed selling machine. lol If I say this game will be successful I mean it! lol

Tue, 01/10/2012 - 01:23

#3

J. Alex K.

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Joined: 09/06/2011

I can tell you're very

I can tell you're very enthusiastic and that's great! But I worry that some of your expectations may be a little unrealistic. Yours is an abstract strategy game, which has a market niche, but it's a small one. The best selling of these abstract games is Hive, which is popular mainly because of its portability, price, and also being a great game. Games like DVONN are renowned for their design, but just don't show up on very many people's shelves. Most people would just rather play something else. It's very difficult to make much of a profit with an abstract.

The second issue I see is the manufacturing cost for your game. All your pieces would need custom molds, which cost thousands of dollars just to commission. With the number of custom pieces, it looks like it may be difficult to produce the game below $12 a game (the magic number for a sub $50 MSRP). For abstracts, I think a $30 MSRP is more realistic, which means production costs between $7-8 per unit. It's going to be very difficult to hit this price point, especially when you add in the price of custom printed boxes, inserts, and so on. You're going to have to order in very large quantities, which means a huge financial risk.

If you're truly going to target the hobby gaming industry, I suggest you go to your FLGS and try out some of the most popular abstracts on this list: http://boardgamegeek.com/abstracts/browse/boardgame?sort=rank&rankobject... . Talk to the people who like these types of games, and have them playtest yours. See how yours compares to some of the very best.

Finally, check out this thread (and the rest of the forum) on BGG: http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/322382/game-design-self-publishing-a-res...

Tue, 01/10/2012 - 03:21

#4

JaffetC

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Joined: 09/19/2011

from the image that I saw,

from the image that I saw, the only thing that did not attract me was the board pieces. It gave me an old 1970's Board Game feel. But like the Alex K. stated, these pieces might make the game rather costly...

However i still back up my opening statement. If you really believe in it, then go for it.

Tue, 01/10/2012 - 06:44

#5

stratixgame

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Joined: 01/08/2012

I love the constructive criticism

And I appreciate what you guys are saying.

I know the playability of this game is good. It's a very solid game. And I know I have what it takes to make it successful.... even though it really stands for itself. After all... it was someone like me that was behind the Snuggie.

I know you are all trying to help someone that might get hurt buy the unforgiving world of "taking a new product to the marketplace". But that is not me. I am a sales and marketing Guru. I know how tough it can be. But I also know they way to be successful is to think successful. I don't think you all are trying to attack me. I just know that there is no try, only do. And I wanted to let you know where I stand. :) Nothing will knock me down! :)

The game has had 150,000 professional play tests. I know from experience of showing it to strangers myself even (in the not so finished version that we have now) that it is great. And I take your constructive criticism as some of the many "no's" I will get. I know some people will not like it. And hey... you can't please them all.

I am not worried about the price of the game. We are shooting to make a high quantity run first time out the gate... so we can keep cost low. And there is no doubt in my mind that I can unload them. That is what I do. 5,000-10,000 pieces is nothing to me. So I would not worry about my goals being unrealistic. I am sure many people told that to Oprah and Trump too. If they stopped thinking and doing what they did to take a more "realistic" stance I don't think they would have gotten where they are today.

What I would like to say is that some of the pieces are being slightly modified as we type. But looking at the in person I think they look sexy and cool. Very much like chess does. And its not so much about the pieces once you start to play. It's what they do. We are going to have several variation of the pieces in the future. We will get licensing for a Star Wars version, LOTR version, Star Trek... Simpsons... the list goes on. And no that is NOT unrealistic.

:) I know you all don't know me. You haven't seen the game in person, or played it. But mark my word... you will someday see Stratix (that's such a cool name for a game) on store shelves. And you will smile and say... she did it. :)

Tue, 01/10/2012 - 07:38

#6

mdkiehl

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Joined: 12/10/2010

Design

In order to make several different versions of your game you will likely need a graphic artist or a few graphic artists and designers. Let me know if you need any help in that area.

Regards,
Matthew Kiehl

http://mdkiehl.wordpress.com

Tue, 01/10/2012 - 15:02

#7

J. Alex K.

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Joined: 09/06/2011

To answer some of your

To answer some of your questions:

**How hard is it to take a new game to the market on your own? And is it possible to gain success without a distributor? I tend to think that you can. But how hard is it to gain game store and the likes trust about the saleability of your product?

It depends. We have seen a lot of success on kickstarter recently, particularly with Alien Frontiers leading the way and most recently with D-Day dice. However, these were unique situations (D-Day dice was a well known Print-N-Play game that had many fans on Board Game Geek). If you have a good game, it's not unreasonable to get between $10,000 and $15,000 in preorders on kickstarter. Rise!, which is an abstract, raised about $18,000.

The pathway to getting into game stores is getting the favor of the hobby gamers. The general framework is to create the demand first, and then create the supply to meet the demand. This means attending conventions (Essen, Gen Con, BGG Con, Origins). Plan to attend AT LEAST one, if not all, to demo your game.

You should also create a page on BGG about your game so people can see it, and rate it once they've played. A high rating will generate interest from gamers, and subsequently interest from stores.

So, my recommendations:

-Get a presence on BGG, and get playtesters from BGG that will rate your game on BGG
-Learn about The Dice Tower if you don't know about it already
-Familarize yourself with the hobby gaming industry. This means playing lots of games. You should know what Agricola, Puerto Rico, Hive, Power Grid, Dominion etc. are if you're going to enter the industry.
-Familiarize yourself with the thousands of Chess variants already out there so you can differentiate your game
-Go to lots of cons with this knowledge ready to sell your game

Tue, 01/10/2012 - 17:59

#8

JaffetC

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Joined: 09/19/2011

Also about a good 70% of the

Also about a good 70% of the time, it is the art that brings the player to the game. There are a ton of "really" good games, that I haven't sat down to play because the art alone did not attract me. When I played Puerto Rico for the first time, in my mind i was thinking, "the box looks like an old 80's video game"... Before I actually played the game, i had seen it everywhere and didnt even think of popping it open.

so in terms of the art, from the prototype that i see on your profile, I dont understand the board pieces. i see spheres and triangles mounted on bases, but i dont get what exactly is going on...

In chess, you do understand that the Rook is the Tower looking piece, and the Knight is the horse looking piece. But then again, I was thought how to play Chess when i was 12 so im used to it. but there are people that say, "I want to move the little horsey!"

Overall I'm sure with your background you will do just fine... If you aren't worried about having a bunch of inventory in case it doesn't sell (but we aren't thinking that, we thinking that it will, but just in case) then whats to worry about?

Board Game Geek, The Dice Tower, Board 2 Death, etc... hit up all the major communities and get familiar (very familiar) with the other games in the market and you're good to go. :)

Tue, 01/10/2012 - 20:54

#9

stratixgame

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Joined: 01/08/2012

:D

Thank you Mdkiehl. We might eventually need more Graphic designers. :)

My husband is quite the genius (my words not his) and is not only a game designer + sales and marketing Guru; but an awesome Graphic designer, audio engineer, and pretty damn good behind the cameras (not to mention in front too). You seen Dumb and Dummber? He was one of the people that made not 1 but 2 dog vans (saggin waggin). lol :) My point was that he is great at graphic design and he has done packaging for Samsung and the like. I am pretty damn good at graphics too, and fine art. And my brother is really good as well and helping us out. He is making a video game version as we speak. :) It might not look the same as far as the pieces go... but like I said the pieces could be anything. And in fact the use to be infantry, tanks, artillery, helicopters, jet fighters and a ICBM. You can all kinda see why they are shaped the way they are now. In fact the geodesic pieces are refined versions of what they are and how they move. Believe me it make more sense when you play it or see it being played.

JAK ~ :) thats what we were thinking... kickstarter. And there is a pretty big underground following for this game. ;) I am still working on creating buzz and viral appeal. That is stage 1. After that we can start the fundraising. I started on twitter about 4 days ago. And I am using the shock and awe tactic. Then we go to you tube videos... then after a substantial buzz is created... about a month from now, bam kickstarter... then of course more videos and such. Right now it looks like we will have to have $75k-100K for start up. Because of the molds for injection molding. I am sure we can knock some of that off because my husband use to create sculptures and silicone molds for behind the scenes in film too. So we can create the sculptures that the injection molds are biased off... however that does not knock it down much. My goal was to make some money for going to game cons too. If this is to work I am seriously going to be really working at it for 12 hours a day or more. I was not aware that the d day dice was a print and play game. But (and I KNOW I am shooting high) I want to top them in funding. Our goal on kickstarter will have to be around $100k but ideally I want to top 200k. I know I am shooting for the stars here. But that what I have always done. And it works! I mentored under one of the BEST sale and marketing Gurus that there is in the biz. And beat his sales record. The way I did it was simple. I would start asking if they wanted thousands (very seriously) at the end of my pitch instead of 1 or 2 samples. Physiologically they think that EVERYONE is getting theses because of the quantity that I suggest. And they ended up getting 10-15 or 20-50, instead of the 1-2 samples... or worse 0. :D It works for me... and I know I will be able to pull the funds out of the air. That is my goal! What happens if I don't reach my goal? I dust myself off and try again! :) Its all good... If you push hard enough even a square peg will fit in a round hole. lol And I am willing to push hard if I have to. BTW we will have a working video game model to start re-play testing soon. It will be VERY limited access. But I want other creators and reviewers to take part.

JaffetC~ I get what you are saying... and you are 100% correct. That is where are packaging comes in. Imagine a Black box with just the Red word Stratix (kinda on the smaller side and in the center). A very clean, sexy, high tech, mysterious and masculine font. A box that screams touch me. Pick me up. If you have that then you are half way to the register. :) Again... this will me more grass roots until people know the name and know what Stratix is. Before that it will spread much like Magic the Gathering did... you have to see it and play it. Then You will have to have it. I have wandered around board game geek and the like.... *AHHHHHH for people so brilliant why do the layouts of their forums suck!* It will take some more effort on my part I am sure. If the forum layout is bad... I can't stand to be there for too long. But For the sake of Stratix I will hold my breathe and jump in.

Tue, 01/10/2012 - 23:39

#10

JaffetC

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Joined: 09/19/2011

Dont forget that they also

Dont forget that they also have to "approve" the designer, artists and the game else, it doesnt make it up there... I had trouble getting my self up there so i could post up Livid Visage, and since it takes them forever and a day... well you know how annoying that can be....

Tue, 01/10/2012 - 23:45

#11

mdkiehl

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Joined: 12/10/2010

Sugjestion

I looked at your pictures, and I wanted to let you know that my first impression was "four player chess" and "Sophisticated" = "slow" = "boring game". I'm not trying to pick on you or anything just trying to give you an idea of what a customer might think from just looking at the pictures . I think Magic the Gathering and other CCGs spread like wild-fire because they basically invented the "information rich card". There is also the fact that CCGs have a gambling element involved in the purchase of each pack. The fact is CCGs also didn't require play, most people I know did more collecting than playing. If you really want a game that will explode in the market I wouldn't make something that appeals to chess players, or hardcore gamers. And again if you want something that can explode like a CCG then make something that is a cool product first without being a game.

Just some thoughts.

Regards,
Matthew Kiehl

http://mdkiehl.wordpress.com

Wed, 01/11/2012 - 00:13

#12

MarblesTheGame

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Joined: 01/10/2012

Thoughts more specifically on topic of self publishing

On the topic of self publishing, there is much that I have read and learned during recent weeks. All of the work to ensure that a game has good playability with a well-developed concept that will be widely accepted are very important preliminary steps. There is risk taking any product to market. Good products often don't find their audience and store shelves are lined with junk heavily promoted. Removing the type of product from the equation, games are sold no differently than books or bars of soap. Demand must be created via marketing. When supply doesn't meet demand, the result is either lost opportunity or the dead weight of excess inventory.

After a game has proven to be playable and refined to be commercially appealing, self publishing is a great method for first-time game developers. Keeping cost low can mean the difference between success and failure. The common royalty for traditional publishing is merely 5 percent. Publishers can offer an agreement and ultimately not follower through, to keep the game off the market to eliminate competition. Sadly, 5 percent of nothing is still nothing. Although not frequent, this does occur. To negotiate a higher percent and preclude other potential deceptions, the game must have a proven track record. One way to exceed beyond this catch 22 is to self publish. Nothing prevents a self published game from later being picked up by a traditional publisher. If cost is low, there is certainly a much higher margin of profit during the interim.

Marketing is the make or break factor. You may know the audience that you desire to target. How will you generate enough excitement (demand) to inspire them to make a purchase? In my opinion, you must have a solid answer to this question before you can proceed with self publishing. Having a website with impressive graphics and a catchy slogan isn't enough. Society is conditioned to want what other people have and talk about. Traditional publishers have the resources to launch advertising campaigns and in-store promotions. The general message is you want it because everyone else either has it or wants it. This is the perfect bar of soap for you too. Self publishing is very much an alternative and one of which I plan to pursue before considering any other method. My cost is low. Similar to stratixgame, I'm exploring how best to self publish but more specifically, in consideration of effective marketing.

The preliminary concerns raised truly are great and relevant. I found great suppliers of quality components, printing and packaging at prices well below their competitors. For some, I purchased small quantities while others provided free samples. Content revisions, especially clear and concise instructions, has been ongoing. Looking ahead to the next steps has become my primary focus at this point.

Build it and they will come is a tremendous fantasy but purely fiction from a realistic perspective. I also anticipate games are likely more difficult to promote than soap for many reasons. Everyone needs soap, whether or not they actually use it. :) Not to overly simplify the objective, the core principle is to be seen by those in which the product would be most appealing. I recently read that games are frequently purchased by people other than the intended players, presumably by parents but also as gifts. In turn, the concept and packaging must also appeal to individuals other than the players. Direct sales via the Internet has expanding potential but generally less effective than sitting on a shelf at a nearby store. One company has a network of independent sales consultants, selling in a multi-level marketing structure by offering in-home parties. I'm not a fan of multi-level marketing but face-to-face is a great method. Attracting dynamic people in sales, omitting the multi-level aspect, and offering a better margin to expand their product line to include a game could be effective. This is very much how independently owned stores such as gift shops work, building your own distribution network wholesaling to smaller venues.

Whether small store fronts or independent consultants, face-to-face interaction will initiate placement of the product in the hands of potential customers. It is possible to concurrently offer direct sales through a website but vital to only offer the game at a set suggested retail price, permitting your dealers in which you wholesale to discount their price. Otherwise, they will perceive you to be competing with them and quickly lose interest. The objective is to build a strong distribution chain, more so than direct sales. Dealers can be offered a small percentage of your direct sales in their geographic location as incentive to advertise your game. Big companies call this cooperative advertising. A small percentage of sales is given as a credit towards advertising. Dealers provide copies of ads placed in newspapers with the invoices to receive reimbursement up to the credit amount. If no ads are placed, there are no claims for reimbursement. Most newspaper ads featuring products are financially supplemented in this manner.

There is strength in numbers. Creating a distribution chain is much work for everyone to do individually and also a huge effort for only one product. From one perspective, we are all competitors selling similar bars of soap. Games do appeal to people based on a variety of attractive qualities. Self publishers forming an alliance to develop a collective distribution chain would definitely have significant benefits, especially if geographically diverse. All members must promote all games for it to be effective. Receiving a small commission percentage from the sales of other games as well as sharing a small commission percentage of their game should equalize the combined effort. Regardless of the details, the profits would far exceed the standard 5 percent royalty offered by traditional publishers and get all participant games into retail outlets. I am still exploring every possibility but haven't found anything yet with greater potential.

Thu, 01/12/2012 - 00:14

#13

stratixgame

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Joined: 01/08/2012

mdkiehl- yes I know quite a

mdkiehl- yes I know quite a few people who think that way, until they see this game in action. And this game can be very quick or long. But never boring. There are several aspects that add to the excitement of the game. But this is going to be part of my job marketing it will to change people concept of chess and 4 player chess to be NEW FUN and SEXY. ;) You do that and they will want to play. That is one of the things I have already been working on ;)

And again to everyone. I know this is going to be hard. I have been there. But nothing was harder then quitting smoking. And if I could do that(and I did) then I can do anything. The secret will be several videos that strike peoples interest. Every kind of Vid. I think WOWs commercials are brilliant. While we don't have enough money for a celeb right now, my goal is to make commercials just as catchy and cool in our unique way. Put the on youtube. The secret is the keywords. And clever catchy fun videos to watch.

I also know that this is not going to be a "trivial pursute" type of overnight success. Its going to have to be worked at. For years. I know what I am doing. But on the upside if by some happy miracle it does work like that... I would be fine with it. lol

Again... this game is VERY tried and true. It has been around since 1986. It is solid. We updated the look and feel, and are still doing some up dateing. So again I love those comments. Tell me what you would like to see it look more like. There are no flaws in game play at all. Everyone that has played it likes it, most LOVE it. I am a part of several forums not related to games. I have posted a "what do you think?" in many different places. 99% of the feedback (from strangers) has been super positive. We already have requests by people wanting to be a re-seller. And several requests to be put on a list to buy the game when it comes out. The only place I have gotten what seems like friction is here. Which confuses me. Don't get me wrong I love constructive criticism. But for some reason I see people piling a heaping dose of every negative aspect or conflict that I can have. And I don't think you guys understand that I know how hard it is bringing a NEW product to the marketplace. I have done it. That is what I do. So I don't need any of the comments about "Its so hard to... blah blah blah". My husband is a graphic and website master. We have that. We are both very creative. So we can create the buzz. There will be ups and downs... there is with every product that you launch. But if you know what you are doing and you keep working at it AND the product is solid, you WILL succeed. So for me it is in no way an "if" for this game. It is a "when".

When I asked I was more expecting the "in my experience it took this long to get to this point and the next hurdle took X amount of day/years. I came across this (unique to the industry)problem, and this is how you solve it" And comments about what you like/ don't like about the look and feel. I LOVED those comments.

It kinda feels like game developers kinda want to intimidate each other. I am not like that. I think there is room for every solid game. But that is just me. I am not competitive like that. I am competitive with myself. And I thought this place would be more people helping other succeed not a bunch of people pointing out flaws or problems. If you have something negative to say... your game looks to expensive, Any comment with you are "NOT going to be able to..." just don't. Don't comment. Its not appreciated, your causing negative energy, and it is not professional. I am not attacking any one at all. I just don't get all the nah saying?

Thu, 01/12/2012 - 03:18

#14

mdkiehl

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Joined: 12/10/2010

one more thing

I think that this game would probably work best with a Lord of The Rings theme. It would become a little more inviting, while still having that medieval chess feel. And you could use some delicate woven Celtic patterns to help break up the "game grid".

Regards,
Matthew Kiehl

http://mdkiehl.wordpress.com

Thu, 01/12/2012 - 09:00

#15

truekid games

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Joined: 10/29/2008

stratixgame wrote: It kinda

stratixgame wrote:

It kinda feels like game developers kinda want to intimidate each other. I am not like that. I think there is room for every solid game. But that is just me. I am not competitive like that. I am competitive with myself. And I thought this place would be more people helping other succeed not a bunch of people pointing out flaws or problems. If you have something negative to say... your game looks to expensive, Any comment with you are "NOT going to be able to..." just don't. Don't comment. Its not appreciated, your causing negative energy, and it is not professional. I am not attacking any one at all. I just don't get all the nah saying?

In game design, saying "yeah, that's good" is rarely very useful feedback- you can rarely IMPROVE what you're working on with it. Saying "this is a problem" or "this might become a problem" is, and adding a "this is why" onto it is extremely useful- it is information you can act on. Sure, you want everyone to have only positive things to say, but clearly in this case (and all cases, actually), there is not instantaneous universal appeal.

People offering their first impressions, EVEN NEGATIVE ONES, are useful to anyone who cares to actually make their product a quality one. You don't forge swords by putting a hunk of metal inside a pillow and saying nice things about it, you forge them by putting it in fire and hitting it with a hammer until it's exactly what it's supposed to be.

In particular, the 4-person chess comparison is a very negative attribute from a marketing standpoint in both the mainstream AND hobby markets. I would specifically try to avoid that comparison if I was you. Theming it, as Matthew suggested, is probably something to consider. Additionally, you may want to look at what other kickstarter campaigns for board games are yielding on average, and weigh that in with your goals for the game before setting your funding mark.

Thu, 01/12/2012 - 09:57

#16

JaffetC

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Joined: 09/19/2011

stratixgame wrote:It kinda

stratixgame wrote:

It kinda feels like game developers kinda want to intimidate each other. I am not like that. I think there is room for every solid game. But that is just me. I am not competitive like that. I am competitive with myself. And I thought this place would be more people helping other succeed not a bunch of people pointing out flaws or problems. If you have something negative to say... your game looks to expensive, Any comment with you are "NOT going to be able to..." just don't. Don't comment. Its not appreciated, your causing negative energy, and it is not professional. I am not attacking any one at all. I just don't get all the nah saying?

I'll be honest in this regard, many "designers and developers" want to make the "next big hit" the problem is that they aren't always going to do that. Even Reiner Knizia had flops, however, like you mentioned in a previous post, the game did get shot down and then those same companies that shot it down released a variant of it. Probably a variant so different that your husband and Father-in-law couldn't sue... So, lets look at this in a different perspective. Each and every person on here that is designing a game wants to make it big. right??

I already mentioned twice that if you feel that strongly about the game, Go for it. It sounds like you are regardless of what anybody says anyways. However I would like to ask, how many R&D teams have you been apart of? (in terms of games) This matters because the experience you acquired from being part of these groups gives you a big edge over mostly anybody on here.

I doubt, seriously, that anybody in here has worked for Wizards of the Coast, Fantasy Flight Games, Cryptozoic, Gary Games, Blizzard, Mayfair Games, Mayday, Alderac, Bandai USA, Bandai JP, Square Enix, Konami US, Upper Deck, etc...

Why do these companies matter? because they are established successful companies with MULTIPLE titles. And this isnt just a message to yourself stratix, but to all the designers on here. Every game has a group that will just love the theme and design and those same games also has those players that could care less for them. However the first person that should enjoy playing and making these games are the designers them selves. If you really like your game, pay your dues... thats what it will come down too.

Last year when I talked to Bruno Faidutti, he asked me. "You like smiley faces? I said, well the theme sounds quirky and cute to play with a group of new gamers. He laughed and said. 'I hate this game. I submitted a game completely different from this one, Theme, mechanics and so forth. and what did they do? butcher it up and packaged it like a children's game.' I said, well that sucks man, I hope someday i do get to see the game you submitted and you actually loved." From this, I realized that when I crack open the game, the only thing on there that was of 100% his was his name, and that was more a label than an actual Faidutti design. So, even designers have to enjoy their designs if not, then the game will just be a flop.

Thu, 01/12/2012 - 11:07

#17

J. Alex K.

Offline

Joined: 09/06/2011

I agree with the other two

I agree with the other two most recent posts. I think the reason that I, and many of the others, had the reactions that we did is because we've seen this before. Not only in that we've seen dozens of 4 player chess variants before, but we've seen new designers come in who don't realize how little the know about game design and the hobby board game industry. It doesn't seem like you've played very many board games, which is okay, but may inherently make us skeptical when you say that your design is really good because you may have little to compare it too. I've only played a dozen or so of the games on this list: http://boardgamegeek.com/browse/boardgame?sort=rank&rankobjecttype=subty... but those that I haven't played, I know about. I know the mechanics they use, and what makes them good. Moreover, we see lists like this: http://boardgamegeek.com/geeksearch.php?action=search&objecttype=boardga..., and wonder if this game is just more of the same and you're just unaware of all the similar games out there.

If you want more constructive criticism, we will need more to go on. The rules, the mechanics, etc. Without these, it is hard for us to critique your game other than on the appearance, which already looks familiar to most of us.

Thu, 01/12/2012 - 11:15

#18

mdkiehl

Offline

Joined: 12/10/2010

Criticism

Taking criticism is one of the keys to improving most anything. For example, critiques are a necessary part of the art world, and they have a lingo around elements like form, contrast, composition, texture, meaningfulness, honesty. People make art clubs and crit groups to get this kind of feedback, though to some it might sound like the group is trashing everyone's work. Eventually however, as an artist you learn to love crits and desire them to improve your work. The same thing happens here, but mostly we talk about Mechanics, Flow (or Fun), Uniqueness, replayability, and sometimes understandability of rules. And there are theme and marketing elements, like player base, relevant theme, and affordable production platforms and options.

Also, in defense of stratixgame, it isn't very useful to hear, "You can't make the next big game." It is like hearing someone say, "it is impossible to become a famous artist" at an art crit, it is completely useless information. It is much more useful to hear people's input on what they feel is working or not. It is much more useful to hear someone rant about everything they hate about my art/product then to hear them say it is meaningless to even attempt.

stratixgame, you might want to share more specific details about your game and its mechanics if you want to have more meaningful feedback.

Regards,
Matthew Kiehl

http://mdkiehl.wordpress.com

Thu, 01/12/2012 - 15:12

#19

stratixgame

Offline

Joined: 01/08/2012

Well I am done here.

First off Thank you mdkiehl. :)

To the rest... It is as if you don't read a thing that I have typed.

I came here for constructive criticism and insight to how other designers looked at the industry.

I guess I got the latter for sure.

Constructive criticism would be: "I would change the colors..." "update the piece shapes they look kinda old..." (which we did get that one). or asking more questions about game play to see if you would like it. Constructive criticism is picking out a feature and saying how it can change for the better.

mdkiehl had good comments, constructive criticism and possible ways he would like to see those minor changes. Thank you mdkiehl. :) And yes we are going to be doing LOTR version eventually... just have to get licensing.

AGAIN... it was professionally play tested. Back in 86'. There were several people in the game industry at the time that had a hand in it. I wont bother naming names because I don't think you all will really read it, take to much stalk in it or believe me for whatever reason.

I really have no clue what makes you think I need any of this unsolicited advice. I asked how easy it was, if it was absolutely necessary to have a distributor. NOT if you think our game would fail.

I don't like how most of you are defending your negative comments for "constructive criticism". I am a professional. I have worked in "think tanks" and other creative processes. No one ever wants to hear "No that one with not work because..." over and over. Anyone that unprofessional would get fired. It is not constitutive.

If I would have heard "you might run into... , this is how you may overcome that..." That would be constructive.

Telling someone they have "unrealistic goals" and basically telling them that "its been done" "They will fail" is NOT constructive criticism. That is just plane old criticism.

But I hope you all have much success. I hope to see your awesome games on the shelves right next to ours. :) Good luck in all our current and future projects. This is just not the place for me.

Fri, 01/13/2012 - 03:02

#20

truekid games

Offline

Joined: 10/29/2008

Clearly. CONSTRUCTIVE

Clearly. CONSTRUCTIVE criticism was offered, but because it wasn't "your thing is awesome, don't change a thing!", or perhaps because you don't know how to act on it because you're unfamiliar with the process, you choose to dismiss it.

YOUR reactions are not professional in an artistic community... or in business based ones, for that matter. "anyone that unprofessional would get fired" is certainly inaccurate for most businesses, and the statement itself is unprofessional- it's borderline insulting. Not sure who you're trying to convince here with that attitude, but bluster will only get you so far.

stratixgame wrote:

I really have no clue what makes you think I need any of this unsolicited advice.

The part where you dismiss that advice out of hand shows exactly how much you need it. as was mentioned before, we see hundreds of "my game's great! here's (not enough information) about it! it's great! SURE I've tested it enough! it's great! take my word for it!" has taught us NOT to take people's word for it, because it is essentially never the case. The lack of further information from you and the defensive response are further hallmarks of exactly the same thing.

TO BE CLEAR: the above paragraph spells out (again, because it was already covered in this thread) exactly "why we think you need this unsolicited advice".

Good luck on your endeavors.

Fri, 01/13/2012 - 06:40

#21

stratixgame

Offline

Joined: 01/08/2012

I never said that I wanted to

I never said that I wanted to be placated. I don't want "your game is awesome... don't change a thing".

However about the game specifically, I only asked what was thought about the look and feel. I got input on that for which I am grateful.

Where I don't need advice and stated it nicely several times:

Marketing: Don't tell me I cannot do it. I know I can. I am a professional that has a proven track record.

Strategy games: You all have never played the game. Great that you think there are too many. Might as well think there are too many RPG's.... for that matter brands of soap or rap songs.

If you personally do not like the game fine. That is okay too. For as many people that like it there will always be people that do not care for it or even hate it. I am in the business of bringing it to those that will like it. :)

You cannot tell me that in professional board meetings and think tanks people have not been fired for being unprofessional. I have seen it with my own eyes. Its a harsh world out there. And it really waist a lot of time going over negatives when there can be options or solutions. That is a fact.

I am not mad at anyone here. I wish you all the best. Like I said before, this is just not the place for me.

Fri, 01/13/2012 - 06:41

#22

stratixgame

Offline

Joined: 01/08/2012

I never said that I wanted to

double post

Fri, 01/13/2012 - 08:41

#23

truekid games

Offline

Joined: 10/29/2008

stratixgame wrote: Marketing:

stratixgame wrote:

Marketing: Don't tell me I cannot do it. I know I can. I am a professional that has a proven track record.

i missed the post where anyone said you don't know how to market.

Quote:

Strategy games: You all have never played the game. Great that you think there are too many. Might as well think there are too many RPG's.... for that matter brands of soap or rap songs.

there are clearly not too many strategy games, most games published every year are strategy games. again, you're apparently reading into things incorrectly.

Quote:

If you personally do not like the game fine. That is okay too. For as many people that like it there will always be people that do not care for it or even hate it. I am in the business of bringing it to those that will like it. :)

we can't like or dislike it, there's not enough information present. so far, we've got a vague description and a picture.

Quote:

You cannot tell me that in professional board meetings and think tanks people have not been fired for being unprofessional. I have seen it with my own eyes. Its a harsh world out there.

yet again, you manufactured sentiments that weren't said. CERTAINLY people have been fired for being unprofessional. your metric for what is or is not professional is the thing being discussed. There are entire corporate philosophies built on addressing problems openly and often. Saying it's "unprofessional" to do exactly that in this field is wrong, and it would be wrong in many other fields as well.

Quote:

And it really waist a lot of time going over negatives when there can be options or solutions. That is a fact.

your ability to distinguish the usefulness of criticism in this field is clearly lacking. like matt said, in creative groups, you start with the flaws, because you're looking to improve, looking to fix problems, looking to cut out bad things. Yes, accentuating the positives is also important, but you don't build a city on a volcano without first making sure the volcano isn't going to mess up your hard work. However, you don't see that, apparently, so...

Quote:

I am not mad at anyone here. I wish you all the best. Like I said before, this is just not the place for me.

... I wish you luck, farewell.

Hello all A few questions on self publishing....

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