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Fri, 09/16/2016 - 02:23

#1

ElKobold

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Joined: 04/10/2015

Mr. ShinyObject wrote:I'm a

Mr. ShinyObject wrote:

I'm a recent college graduate, though not really in anything too relevant, but have decided that I want to design board games for a living. So far, it seems like it's going to be really tough to pull it off, but I've got a lifetime to figure it out.

Friendly advise: reconsider. Deciding to make a living from designing boardgames is not unlike deciding to make a living by becoming a professional football player. Are there game designers earning a living from it? Sure. But it's a tiny fraction.

But don't trust me, trust Kevin Wilson https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PeUOhxSaSDc

That doesn't mean that you should drop game design though. Designing boardgames is great and a tonn of fun and if you're lucky, it _migth_ earn you some cash. But don't try to make a career from it. Build a career to pay your bills and do boardgames in your free time.

Fri, 09/16/2016 - 03:22

#2

adversitygames

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Joined: 09/02/2014

On the other hand, if you

On the other hand, if you decide you can never succeed at making a living as a game designer then you'll never make a living as a game designer. It'll be a self-fulfilling prophecy brought by holding yourself back.

Just, if you're going to try it, have no doubt about how hard it is to succeed.

Fri, 09/16/2016 - 03:42

#3

Mr. ShinyObject

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Joined: 09/07/2016

1. I'm young, I've got time,

1. I'm young, I've got time, and there's nothing else I can think of that I would want to do with my life. If it takes thirty years until I get hired then so be it.

2. I'm not asking to be famous, a major designer, a household name, I just want to get paid to do what I love, just like anyone in the world. Honestly if I end up being the 4th in the chain of a sub-team of a minor game and make barely minimum wage, I'll be happy.

3. You are not the first to tell me this. I have thought long and hard about whether or not it was a wise choice, and logistically it makes very little sense, but worst case scenario I work retail the rest of my life and design board games on the side, and I've more or less decided I'm okay with that.

4. I realize you're trying to be helpful, but that's a pretty harsh way to welcome someone to the forum by telling them to give up on their dreams in the very first post. Then again, I suppose it's best to do that early.

Fri, 09/16/2016 - 03:46

#4

ElKobold

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Joined: 04/10/2015

iamseph wrote:On the other

iamseph wrote:

On the other hand, if you decide you can never succeed at making a living as a game designer then you'll never make a living as a game designer. It'll be a self-fulfilling prophecy brought by holding yourself back.

Just, if you're going to try it, have no doubt about how hard it is to succeed.

Please allow me to disagree. Why realistic expectation should negatively affect the chances of success? If anything, I'd say it's the opposite. If you have another source of income, you are more likely to get to work on more projects (for free) and possibly make a name for yourself.

It's not about how hard it is. That's the thing. It's more along the lines of "how unlikely".

All you need to be a game designer is to design games. To make a career out of it - the stars should be right. And it can take years until they are right.

While all of us need to pay bills, buy food.

Fri, 09/16/2016 - 04:06

#5

ElKobold

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Joined: 04/10/2015

Mr. ShinyObject wrote:1. I'm

Mr. ShinyObject wrote:

1. I'm young, I've got time, and there's nothing else I can think of that I would want to do with my life. If it takes thirty years until I get hired then so be it.

I understand that. This is exactly the reason I've tried to warn you. Make sure you don't regret decisions you do now.

Mr. ShinyObject wrote:

4. I realize you're trying to be helpful, but that's a pretty harsh way to welcome someone to the forum by telling them to give up on their dreams in the very first post. Then again, I suppose it's best to do that early.

Well, sorry if you felt discouraged, but I believe that telling someone that "relax, it'll be fine" when he is making a decision that might cripple his life would be plainly malicious.

At the same time I`m not telling you to give up on your dreams. I`m sharing with you how you can actually succeed at it.

Here's a real life story for you:
I`m designing boardgames as a hobby since I`m 12 (I've turned 33 on Tuesday). I work as a software engineer. This job supports my family, pays bills and allows me to maintain an acceptable quality of life.

A year and a half ago I've stumbled upon like-minded people and we've cooperated to run a KS project for a game I've designed that got funded this February. We're releasing it at Essen next month.

I did get paid for my part in the project. Yet it was a fraction of what I`m earning at my day job.

You can both have a living and make board-games. Why sacrifice either?

Fri, 09/16/2016 - 04:14

#6

Mr. ShinyObject

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Joined: 09/07/2016

ElKobold wrote: Well, sorry

ElKobold wrote:

Well, sorry if you felt discouraged, but I believe that telling someone that "relax, it'll be fine" when he is making a decision that might cripple his life would be plainly malicious.

At the same time I`m not telling you to give up on your dreams. I`m sharing with you how you can actually succeed at it.

Here's a real life story for you:

[...]

I did get paid for my part in the project. Yet it was a fraction of what I`m earning at my day job.

You can both have a living and make board-games. Why sacrifice either?

I suppose I should specify that it's my goal to become a professional game designer, not the only job I will accept. In fact, I could probably take up a software engineering job in my local programming mill with my former classmates, I just choose not to. I am perfectly willing to wait and work toward the years it takes until "the stars should be right."

I have a pretty strong background in the film industry back in Milwaukee, and that's filled with people working for favors, doing stuff for free, and celebrating getting a single paying gig for a local commercial or intra-company morale video. I know what that's like. And I plan on doing all the game-design equivalents of that until I can work myself into something serious.

Fri, 09/16/2016 - 04:20

#7

ElKobold

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Joined: 04/10/2015

Mr. ShinyObject wrote:I

Mr. ShinyObject wrote:

I suppose I should specify that it's my goal to become a professional game designer, not the only job I will accept. In fact, I could probably take up a software engineering job in my local programming mill with my former classmates, I just choose not to.

Well, good luck to you in any case.
And welcome to the forums.

Fri, 09/16/2016 - 06:41

#8

adversitygames

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Joined: 09/02/2014

ElKobold wrote:Please allow

ElKobold wrote:

Please allow me to disagree. Why realistic expectation should negatively affect the chances of success? If anything, I'd say it's the opposite. If you have another source of income, you are more likely to get to work on more projects (for free) and possibly make a name for yourself.

Your idea is not a realistic expectation, it's a pessimistic one. It's more realistic to say "I can succeed" than "I can't succeed".

If you expect to fail it's discouraging, disheartening, and means you avoid getting invested in the project.

I don't see how other sources of income are relevant to whether it's realistic to think you can succeed or not. If extra money helps you succeed (eg getting art, prototypes, etc) then sure do it. But that rests on the premise of *trying* to be a successful designer and actually thinking it's possible.

ElKobold wrote:

It's not about how hard it is. That's the thing. It's more along the lines of "how unlikely".

All you need to be a game designer is to design games. To make a career out of it - the stars should be right. And it can take years until they are right.

No.

Success is about knowledge, not luck. Success in business of any kind is a result of good judgement. Luck may play a part, but it is not all a matter of luck.

This is a vitally important idea. Thinking that people who are successful only do so by luck is self-destructive, you turn the challenge of creating something new and great into a flip of a coin rather than a product of knowledge and reason. You can't improve at coin flips, you just have to live with them. But you *can* improve in your knowledge and skill, and that *does* have an effect.

People who fail, fail for a reason, such as: Their game idea is bad. Their design is bad. Their graphics are bad. Their marketing is bad. Their sales pitch is bad. They're targeting an audience that isn't there. They launch at a time when a competing project is already in the limelight. Many more.

All of these mistakes can be learned about and corrected for.

Fri, 09/16/2016 - 07:54

#9

Squinshee

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Joined: 10/17/2012

Welcome friend. I wish you

Welcome friend.

I wish you the best in your ventures. This is a tough industry, but the more you keep at it the better you get.

Fri, 09/16/2016 - 08:15

#10

ElKobold

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Joined: 04/10/2015

iamseph wrote:Your idea is

iamseph wrote:

Your idea is not a realistic expectation, it's a pessimistic one.

My "idea" is based on my observation of the industry and personal experience (however small).

Have you watched the link I've posted above?

Fri, 09/16/2016 - 08:24

#11

adversitygames

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Joined: 09/02/2014

ElKobold wrote:iamseph

ElKobold wrote:

iamseph wrote:

Your idea is not a realistic expectation, it's a pessimistic one.

My "idea" is based on my knowledge of the industry and personal experience (however small).

Have you watched the link I've posted above?

The clip is an hour and 40 minutes. Even listening at 1.5x speed, it's a bit slow, and it starts off with a BIG ramble about his history without going into actual ideas.

I don't even know what your argument is, you've just stated your conclusions without argument, so I can't identify which part you think is relevant. If your argument is based on some part of it that's got higher content, I'll happily check out that part. Where should I start listening?

(telling me what you think it means would help too, different people interpret things in different ways)

Fri, 09/16/2016 - 08:29

#12

ElKobold

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Joined: 04/10/2015

The video gives an insight on

The video gives an insight on the industry from an industry veteran which might give you an idea of the state of things.

You can call me a pessimist if you want, no problem.
But I would much rather be a pessimist than to be naive.

I thought my point was pretty clear.
One might wish to become a movie superstar. Is it theoretically possible? Of course. Is it probable? Not really. Does it mean that nobody should pursue an acting career? Of course not. But you have to manage your expectations.
Now the problem with boardgame industry is that unless you are a superstar, you can't pay your bills that way.

Fri, 09/16/2016 - 08:51

#13

adversitygames

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Joined: 09/02/2014

Your assertions were

Your assertions were clear.

But assertions are not convincing.

I am asking for *reasoning*, *argument*, *ideas*. I want to *understand* what you're saying, I wont just agree with it blindly because you say so.

You don't seem to have these, or at least are unwilling to try. Giving me a long boring source without telling me where to find the interesting parts is like giving me a 1000-page book on chess history and saying "there are 2 pages in this book that help with playing chess, go find them".

(Mr. Shiny Object: we've derailed a bit here, but maybe you can find something interesting in the discussion)

Fri, 09/16/2016 - 09:00

#14

ElKobold

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Joined: 04/10/2015

iamseph wrote: Giving me a

iamseph wrote:

Giving me a long boring source without telling me where to find the interesting parts

Listening to long boring sources is part of being a game designer. Saves you from repeating mistakes of others.

I've watched that video a year ago or so and found it quite enlightening and useful. You don't have to watch it if you don't feel like it's worth your time.

I have no mission to "convince" you in my assertions and believe that I've said enough. Take it or leave it :)

Fri, 09/16/2016 - 09:06

#15

X3M

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Joined: 10/28/2013

Hi and welcome. I hope you

Hi and welcome.

I hope you can learn a lot here on this forum.

***

If there is a shop close to your home, where they sell board games and such. Maybe, just maybe you can get a job there? If so, if it is not a full time job, you could still take it, right?

That would give you a start with getting; experience, connections, idea's, what's on the market, what should get off the market, etc.

Fri, 09/16/2016 - 11:33

#16

Soulfinger

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Joined: 01/06/2015

Mr. ShinyObject wrote:4. I

Mr. ShinyObject wrote:

4. I realize you're trying to be helpful, but that's a pretty harsh way to welcome someone to the forum by telling them to give up on their dreams in the very first post. Then again, I suppose it's best to do that early.

"Don't quit your day job" is the default greeting in game design, writing, and the arts. It is the best intentioned and most heartfelt comment that any designer has to share. It's not "give up on your dreams," but rather, establish a foundation to build them on so that you are working something more fulfilling than retail the rest of your life, like being a professor or scientist, while writing on the side. I'm sure many of us look back on our early 20s and think "Why didn't I spend that time becoming a lawyer instead of all that ceaseless gaming, sex, and drinking."

What I am teaching my son is that he needs to select two occupations, the one that will give him a comfortable living, and the other that he can retire early to pursue. That way he'll have the money to pursue his dream, can carry over his professional connections, and his accomplishments will translate into credentials that will facilitate success in his second career. Your hobby informs your career and vice-versa. I've seen this constantly in fiction, how people with marginal talent have an easier time getting published because of their day job resume. One of the easiest paths to publication is to be an expert on something else. For example, computer game companies hire historians and fluency in a foreign language increases your odds of finding a position overseas. Any expertise you acquire in other fields makes you a better designer.

Fri, 09/16/2016 - 11:56

#17

chris_mancini

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Joined: 05/01/2015

Going it alone as a game

Going it alone as a game designer is not the only option...every game company has a staff of designers, so one could always try to get into the business that way. I myself work in the toy industry, and while getting a job designing toys requires an ID degree and experience with a whole suite of software, game design requires a fairly extensive knowledge of games, mechanics and experience and passion for playing games.

While you'd still need pretty thorough knowledge of graphics programs like Illustrator and Photoshop to be a staff designer, why not apply for an internship with a toy company with a strong games group? Takes the pressure off of having what it takes for a full-time position, gets you in the door and gets you experience.

Attend conventions, meet people (companies) and express your desire to get into the business as a designer. If nothing else, find a local company at a con and offer to help out around the office for a few hours a week for free, just get in the door and soak up all you can. While some would say "never work for free," what you're earning is experience, and unless you've got the credentials to justify a paid position (however menial), then you're only concern should be getting in the door, learning and putting a game company on your resume...then look to get paid from the next opportunity.

It's a long road, whatever the choice...but this is an industry (like many) built on passion and persistence, and you've got to have both to find any kind of success. Your youth and exuberance are your greatest assets...USE THEM!

Fri, 09/16/2016 - 16:07

#18

Mr. ShinyObject

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Joined: 09/07/2016

wow, so many people to reply

wow, so many people to reply to! This is what I get for posting my introduction so late at night.

@Iamseph thank you for the argument, I am gleaning some use off it.

@ElKobold I thank you for warning me, but it's all stuff I've heard before.

@X3M I've talked with the guys there, and am on a first name basis with everyone who works there. They've given me some pointers here or there, but they haven't had a job opening since I've graduated.

@Soulfinger "Don't quit your day job" is definitely the mode I'm on, but you can bet I will when I get the chance. That career tip in your second paragraph is actually really good advice, and I'm surprised I've never heard of something like that before. It's definitely still within my grasp. I've also read up that since there are no or very few game design degrees, a lot of companies just hire people with tangential degrees like mine.

@chris_mancini I definitely am not planning on going it alone, and would love to join an existing company. The trouble is, there are few of them large enough that they really need interns. The ones that I know need interns are thousands of miles away, and I'd like to make a little more money at my day job before I commit to a big move like that, especially for an unpaid internship. And like I said earlier, I'm familiar with the "work for free until you find a way not to" from the film industry.

Thank you all for your advice.

Sat, 09/17/2016 - 20:08

#19

Arcuate

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Joined: 02/05/2016

I'm with ElKobold

... in the sense that, I agree it is important to pursue an alternative career to board game design with real vigor. If you are keen on board game design, you will find yourself doing it in the evenings and weekend anyway, and career #1 will not stop you. You say you have been told this before, but the reference to a life in retail suggests that the priorities might need a little more tweaking. The main, bread-winning career should not be treated with disdain, as it will ultimately give you the means to pursue board game design.

I am not suggesting you put aside your dream, but just that you use a parallel approach.

Sun, 09/18/2016 - 02:35

#20

Soulfinger

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Joined: 01/06/2015

Mr. ShinyObject

Mr. ShinyObject wrote:

@Soulfinger "Don't quit your day job" is definitely the mode I'm on, but you can bet I will when I get the chance. That career tip in your second paragraph is actually really good advice, and I'm surprised I've never heard of something like that before. It's definitely still within my grasp. I've also read up that since there are no or very few game design degrees, a lot of companies just hire people with tangential degrees like mine.

Yeah, whatever your degree is, get a Masters or Doctorate in it. Then, when you send a game to a publisher, they'll see it has been written by Doctor ShinyObject, who obviously knows his shit. It's not like publishers first looked at Reiner Knizia's cover letter and said, "Hmmm . . . Masters of Science, Doctorate in Mathematics, managed a two-billion dollar financial corporation -- oh, he's previously unpublished but really passionate about gaming! That last thing really sets him apart from the thousand other submissions we received this month."

Set yourself up so that you succeed no matter what direction your life takes you. I decided at an early age that I wanted to be a writer, and that's all I ever wanted to be. That was moronic. I'd be a better writer today if I'd studied to be a lawyer like everyone told me to with a lot more money and a lot more to write about. Plus, staying in college keeps you in touch with all of the resources that make game design easier. Doing it on the sly while you are raising a family, working a day job, or jumping in front of cars as part of an insurance scam is not quite as easy or productive.

As Rodney Dangerfield said, "And so, to all you graduates, as you go out into the world, my advice to you is . . . Don’t go! It’s rough out there! Stay in school!"

Sun, 09/18/2016 - 12:05

#21

The Professor

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Joined: 10/25/2014

Welcome!

@ShinyObject ~ Welcome! Definitely take the time to check out the myriad links threads, posts, and blogs. There are few (if any) game designers out here who make their living solely through board game design, but there are quite a few of us that have managed to do well enough that we actually have to cite the amounts received on our taxes. It's an exciting time to get involved in the board and card game industry and I wish you luck...but, moreover, don't get discouraged. Read as much as possible, play-test your game until you're (almost) sick of your own game, and don't suffer arrogance in the form of holding onto an idea that's better binned in the garbage. Few of your ideas will see the light of day, and that's okay. Continue to refine your product all the while deliberately developing yourself.

@ElKobold: Great video ~ I"ve always like Kevin, and he's a very down-to-earth individual.

@Soulfinger: Ahh, "Back to School" ~ great flick!

Cheers,
Joe

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