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Political, morally or socially degrading and unethical? Do we care?

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stick
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Joined: 01/30/2012

I have read posts in the past eluding to the fact that some people find slavery depicted in a board game as unacceptable. But yet it fits theme in some games. We have the robber in Settlers but that is ok. When is it ok to put something into a game that is theme specific but socially, morally or otherwise frowned upon. In general games have all kinds of things going on that you would not or should not do in real life. You can bomb entire planets in Twilight imperium but if you were to put a rape card in a deck building game it would most likely be considered a terrible thing even if you somehow worked it in to theme and mechanic. I am developing a game that has virgin sacrifice. One of my testers gave me feedback that he would think twice about including that in the game. So I ask how do we as designers decide where to draw the line in situations where a small part of the game is a little questionable and yet makes sense to the theme and mechanic. No on thinks twice when playing the torturer card in Dominion but if you were to create a game where you were a group of competing torturers and got points based on how much pain you incflicted on different tortured individuals there would be outcry. 7 wonders has the courtesan token but grand theft auto made news headlines for having the ability to pick up a streetwalker. I know it was graphically intense and the courtesan token is just a face but I believe my point still stands. There is obviously a line that can be crossed and that line has many gray areas and is defiend but multiple factors both tangible and intangible.

So my question is this. Is virgin sacrifice by itself enough to make someone not play a game or to make the game itself less successful than it would otherwise be if it had not included it and worked something else in?

Also looking for alternative ideas that are the equivalent to virgin sacrifice just in case :)

Jonsan
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Joined: 02/09/2010
I think people playing games

I think people playing games expect representational conflict. Because board and card games usually deal with the conflict abstractly, we have a greater tolerance for imagined violence. When we start specifying the conflict and personalizing it, then it is likely to become problematic.

A "rape" card would indicate one of the players is raping or being raped. Similarly, a "shoot in the head" card applied to another player conjures a specific act of violence and so is potentially more loaded with intent. I think game designers can find some protection in conventions and tropes, especially when they are more abstract (robber in Catan, torturer in Dominion) but by getting more specific you conjure the imagination and apply it to a particular player or target.

I was working on a game with dragons where settlements payed tribute to the players. One of the tribute types was "maidens", but I reconsidered because I thought the message of women being sent off to be eaten or collected like trophies wasn't very healthy to put out into the world.

I think if the game is cooperative, and the "virgin sacrifice" card comes up as played by the game itself, the concept is framed as something negative that the players seek to avoid or stop. If you have the players playing down that card and getting victory points, it sends a different message. If the game is highly tounge-in-cheek or meant to be edgy and only for adults, you have more leeway. Lots of factors here, so I can't rule out "virgin sacrifice" as appropriate for a game, but it certainly could be problematic.

As for a specific alternative, I would need to know more about the game to offer useful suggestions.

larienna
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I think that the advantage of

I think that the advantage of board games is that it can hide the details that the people does not want to see for example by representing horrible creatures with simple wooden pawns.

For Your example of virgin sacrifice you could only mention sacrifice instead and be less offensive already.

There are ways to change the vocabulary to make it less provocative. Like the colonist in puerto rico which are probably black slaves. Instead of having sex, you can simply mate together people. We do not need to have more detials for the purpose of the game.

The selection of art is also important. There is a mobster game I don't remember the name where you actually see on a card somebody put a guy in the meet grinder. That is somewhat offensive and disgusting. Assasinating a character is not as provocative as passing it through the meet grinder probably because you hide the details of how the assisination will take place and leave it to the imagination of the players.

My girl friend was offended about a game prototype that taled about prostitution. But I think the designer want to put some comic releif by making it a 1970 theme where pimp have weird clothing that they could use to protect themselves against other pimps. So turning the game as a commedy, and hiding the horrible facts about the theme could have made the game less provocative.

So I think it's a matter of how you present things in your game.

stick
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Joined: 01/30/2012
I think you guys are on to

I think you guys are on to something there with the difference of it happening because of the game or being carried out by a player. In my case it would be carried out by a player. Perhaps I can just call it "sacrifice" and put a picture of a traditional virgin type sacrifice girl on for the image. The game is not aimed specifically at children but I would like it to not be offensive to families in general. The mechanic and gameplay will not be easily grasped by a 10 year old so the themes do not need to work for them but I would think a 13+ age is where I am aiming. Another option was a picture of a heart as a sacrifice but I thought that was even worse as the image conjured there was more graphic in my opinion.

Yort
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Joined: 11/24/2009
Go with your inspiration

There will always be weenies in the world, don't let them make you lose sight of your vision. I remember lecturing my 4 year old son about the toy gun he was playing with on behest of my wife that guns hurt people and kill people. He looked at me as innocent as can be and said "It's okay Dada, this isn't real". Boy did he showed me.

I would advise go with what makes your game cool in your mind, go with the choice that inspires you most. If you go over the top enough you may even get a whole lot of free press (Think Ghettoopoly sp?). The little bit of non-pc or naughtyness you put in you game may put some off, but may make it more tantalizing or realistic for others. If you manage to get it to a big publisher, they may help you make these decisions later.

P.S. My gaming buddies ask why does the robber in Settlers haveDo to be black? I don't think it's racist, just black is traditionally associated with the sinister ala black death, black knight, black cats.

Jonsan
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stick wrote:I think you guys

stick wrote:
I think you guys are on to something there with the difference of it happening because of the game or being carried out by a player. In my case it would be carried out by a player. Perhaps I can just call it "sacrifice" and put a picture of a traditional virgin type sacrifice girl on for the image.

Why is the virgin being sacrificed? Are the sacrifices always female? I'm curious what a "traditional virgin" looks like.

The Chaz
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offensive?

stick wrote:
No on thinks twice when playing the torturer card in Dominion...

I don't think twice, but personally know people who DO. The witch (and curses) so bothered one player that he printed off King's Tax (and taxes) cards.
But the point of this discussion isn't that people are sensitive to various topics: it's how do we determine what is offensive, and what is too offensive?

--------
Can you provide more info about the "virgin sacrifice"? Why virgin? Why a human? Why sacrifice?

I'd personally be bothered significantly less (if at all) by an animal sacrifice. Pig on a spit, no big deal.
Of course, this might not fit the theme. Then again, the theme might need to go!

You've been advised to essentially just do whatever you want. If you want to sell more than one prototype copy of your game, you'll need to incorporate feedback from your target demographic. [insert counterexample here :)]

I'm brainstorming a game set in the Judeo-Christian account of Israel's slavery to the Egyptians before the first Passover. There's some pretty crazy/nasty stuff in the Torah (besides the slavery) that I am hoping to abstract and distill. Not sure how offensive it will end up being...

stick
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Joined: 01/30/2012
I does not need to be a

I does not need to be a virgin so to speak but that was the initial idea I had. I am thinking hollywood here. Indiana Jones has a maiden in a white dress being almost sacrified to a volcano, the Beastmaster has them killing people on the temple, the maiden set out for king kong. Think jungle tribes sacrificing a maiden to the volcano gods. As for how the "normal" virgin sacrifice looks :P I'd say woman in a white robe, dress, toga etc somehow killed thrown in the volcano etc. There are many many examples in movies and literature, it is in the bible, it is in history books but like slavery and other themes it has a certain taboo element. I am not an expert on the subject or practicioner of some strange religion but I would think ritual human sacrifice is usually done to meet some god, demon or spirits desire for the soul flesh lifeforce etc of the human since that would/should be more potent than a dog for example. Maybe it's our own way of saying we are better and more important than animals but it shows up alot in movies/literature. In actual history it was done all over the place at different times for different reasons. To protect temples as they were built, to provide afterlife servants for pharoahs, the list goes on and on.

In the end I want to create a game that very few people will be going "am I really doing that?" and want to stop playing or never play again. I know you can't please everyone but aiming for 99% seems like a good call to me.

Orangebeard
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stick wrote:you'll need to

stick wrote:
you'll need to incorporate feedback from your target demographic

This is probably the best measure...focus the playtesting in your target audience and see how they feel about the theme and/or specific cards.

Who can say how the crowd will react? I can think of a very popular game that features people capturing animals, keeping them in little round red & white cages and then releasing them to fight other animals for fun? amusement? profit?

...and if you realize you can't please everyone, then you are probably approaching your design from a good direction.

Good luck with your designs!

larienna
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Quote:Can you provide more

Quote:
Can you provide more info about the "virgin sacrifice"? Why virgin? Why a human? Why sacrifice?

I'd personally be bothered significantly less (if at all) by an animal sacrifice. Pig on a spit, no big deal.

The concept of a sacrifice is to voluntarily get rid of something valuable. So what is more valuable, a Virgin or a pig?

The Chaz
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Joined: 11/20/2012
2 things...

larienna wrote:
...So what is more valuable, a Virgin or a pig?

That is wholly irrelevant. The value of the "sacrifice" mechanism in this guy's game is whatever value HE gives it!

@OP: The Hollywood examples you cited make me think a more appropriate term would be in order:
Damsel in Distress

I also like "token scantily-clad babe", or something like that!

Jonsan
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Joined: 02/09/2010
stick wrote:I does not need

stick wrote:
I does not need to be a virgin so to speak but that was the initial idea I had. I am thinking hollywood here. Indiana Jones has a maiden in a white dress being almost sacrified to a volcano, the Beastmaster has them killing people on the temple, the maiden set out for king kong. Think jungle tribes sacrificing a maiden to the volcano gods.

So are the players coming to the rescue and thwarting the tribe/fighting the monster/combating the evil gods? Or are the players sacrificing virgins to appease their dark gods/appease the monster/bring about the apocalypse? Either can be okay. Context and execution really matter here.

Another consideration is commentary on a trope by approaching it from a different angle or turning it on its head. For example, what about a game where the players are collecting items to win the opportunity to be sacrificed to their people's god. Or a game where the sacrifice to the monster fights back against the monster instead of just being eaten. Or a game where the players are gods receiving human sacrifices, but they don't want human sacrifices, so you have to make houses and a village and so forth for the sacrificed people to live.

Anyway, you get the idea. How you execute the concept and the theme of the game are probably more important than the specific, controversial idea involved.

kos
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Joined: 01/17/2011
Off topic

Jonsan wrote:
Or a game where the players are gods receiving human sacrifices, but they don't want human sacrifices, so you have to make houses and a village and so forth for the sacrificed people to live.

Angel: Master, they've just sent up another 100 virgins to be sacrified.
Diety: What's wrong with those people? I told them I wanted olive oil, and they send me virgins.
Angel: Well, the prophet did have a pretty bad lisp...
Diety: Ok, well just round up the virgins and build some more houses for them.
Angel: I hesitate to mention it, but we're running low on wood to make the houses...
Diety: That's it! I've had enough of this! Send in the giant to rip up some houses from the village and collect the wood. That'll teach them to disobey.

... (a few days later) ...

Angel: Master, the giant has collected enough wood to build houses for the last batch of virgins.
Diety: Good, we've got that settled now. And the people?
Angel: They're exceedingly sorry to have angered you, Master.
Diety: Ok, good job. Tell the prophet to give them the "Cheer up, don't do it again" message.
Angel: I hesitate to mention it, but to appease your wrath they've just sent up another 100 virgins to be sacrificed...

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