Is it or isn't it X

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regzr
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Joined: 05/27/2012

There's one procedure I have not found. How to set-up and play a game, where players flip tiles one at a time to see if tile is the kind of tile they were looking for, but not seeing what the tile is, if it's not specially what seeked for. Flipping a tile should give only the information, if the tile is or is not what expected. No more information shouldn't be revealed. A two player game, no game master.

There was earlier a somewhat parallel discussion, but I think that didn't quite solve the inconvenience.
Keeping information hidden
http://www.bgdf.com/node/8039

Example #1
Let's modify the matching game Pairs. On your turn, you flip two cards to see if they were pairs. To be exact, you flip one card first and then try to find a similar card by another flipping. If your second card is what you were looking for, you can notice that a pair is correct and you can pick cards. But if your second card is not what you were looking for, then you can only see a empty card.
How is this done? (without a game master)

richdurham
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Joined: 12/26/2009
Is it important in this

Is it important in this example that the opponent not know what the flipped tiles are, either?

If not then have the opponent flip the tiles and simply tell you "no" if it doesn't match, and say "yes" if it does - then hand you the matching tile.

If it DOES matter, then you could rig a cover that only reveals a small part of the tile - namely the part you are trying to match. Tiles are only seen under the cover unless they match the visible characteristic, in which case they come to you.

There are a number of options to "cover" the tiles and test for a matching characteristic - from the physical shape of the tile (think locks and keys) - to electronic sifteo cubes.

sedjtroll
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Joined: 07/21/2008
regzr wrote:There's one

regzr wrote:
There's one procedure I have not found. How to set-up and play a game, where players flip tiles one at a time to see if tile is the kind of tile they were looking for, but not seeing what the tile is, if it's not specially what seeked for. Flipping a tile should give only the information, if the tile is or is not what expected. No more information shouldn't be revealed.

That sounds tricky...

Can you approximate what you're looking for by putting partial info on the back of the card?

Another thought, though this might depart from what you have in mind: Does the 'matching' card have to be a SPECIFIC card? Or can it change game-to-game?

Suppose you have this setup:

1. Put cards into sleeves numbered 1-whatever such that you cannot tell which card is in the sleeve. This can be done with opaque sleeves and a pen, or by putting a numbered card into a sleeve and then the other card behind that.

If you don't like sleeves, you could just place the unknown cards face down, and then numbered cards or tiles face down on top of them.

You now have a set of cards which are identifiable by number but not by what they actually are.

2. Make the other set of cards (the ones that match the above set) indicate which NUMBER it matches - meaning for this game, this card matches whatever card is in sleeve #1.

So, you have a card from that second set, and to see if you've found it's mate, you look at the number only of one of the cards from the first set. If yes, you get to look at the card associated with that number. If not, then you don't.

That does what you're asking for, except it can't keep cards connected to SPECIFIC cards (the same cards they were connected to last game). If that works for you, then this should work.

sedjtroll
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Joined: 07/21/2008
richdurham wrote:Is it

richdurham wrote:
Is it important in this example that the opponent not know what the flipped tiles are, either?

If not then have the opponent flip the tiles and simply tell you "no" if it doesn't match, and say "yes" if it does - then hand you the matching tile.

If it DOES matter, then you could rig a cover that only reveals a small part of the tile - namely the part you are trying to match. Tiles are only seen under the cover unless they match the visible characteristic, in which case they come to you.

There are a number of options to "cover" the tiles and test for a matching characteristic - from the physical shape of the tile (think locks and keys) - to electronic sifteo cubes.

This was my other thought - cover all but the 'matching' info. That should do what you want. This could be as easy as taking some opaque backed sleeves and cutting a strip off the top so the cards stick out just enough to reveal the matching info.

Abandoned Arts
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Joined: 07/27/2013
regzr wrote:There's one

regzr wrote:
There's one procedure I have not found. How to set-up and play a game, where players flip tiles one at a time to see if tile is the kind of tile they were looking for, but not seeing what the tile is, if it's not specially what seeked for. Flipping a tile should give only the information, if the tile is or is not what expected. No more information shouldn't be revealed. A two player game, no game master.

There was earlier a somewhat parallel discussion, but I think that didn't quite solve the inconvenience.
Keeping information hidden
http://www.bgdf.com/node/8039

Example #1
Let's modify the matching game Pairs. On your turn, you flip two cards to see if they were pairs. To be exact, you flip one card first and then try to find a similar card by another flipping. If your second card is what you were looking for, you can notice that a pair is correct and you can pick cards. But if your second card is not what you were looking for, then you can only see a empty card.
How is this done? (without a game master)

I'll take a shot at this. I propose two solutions:

1.) Use folding boards.

You know how your Risk and Clue boards fold up so that they fit in the box? Use tiny, folding boards for "tiles." You can flip one side of the tile over (the correct side is clearly marked on the back with an icon, or with the words "flip me") to see what KIND of tile it is. If it's the "right" kind, you can turn the whole folding tile over. If it's NOT the right kind, you can just leave it folded over (or flip it back down, if there's a "memory" aspect to the game).

2.) Use plastic cups and dice.

You've got dice that come in - let's say - three different colors. Some of your game dice are weighted so that they'll ALWAYS roll a 6, and some are not. At the start of the game, you put one of each color die into the little plastic cups. You dump the dice in and flip the cup over before you can see how they land (you can put a small lip on the cups to make this easier).

When you reveal a cup, you know you're looking for rolls of "6" on a die of a certain color. If you see one, you know you've overturned the right KIND of cup, but you don't know if the die shows a 6 because that's how it landed or because it's weighted. If you don't see any 6's, you know you've overturned the WRONG kind of cup.

Abandoned Arts
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Joined: 07/27/2013

Hm... actually, I had another thought right after posting this.

3.) Use TWO sets of tiles or cards.

Let's say you're playing a game wherein the players are trying to find buried treasure... but sometimes what they dig up is junk, or a hazard or obstacle, or a zombie or something.

You have two decks of cards, or tiles.

DECK 1: the buried stuff deck. The backs of each card look the same. Each card has a value listed for a TREASURE, a JUNK, and a HAZARD.
DECK 2: the "type" deck. The backs of each card look the same. Each card simply has a word or icon printed on the other side: one that says "TREASURE," one that says "JUNK," and one that says "HAZARD."

First, you shuffle DECK 1 and deal some number of cards from DECK 1 facedown onto the playing field.
Second, you shuffle DECK 2 and deal the same number of cards from DECK 2 facedown onto the playing field, ON TOP of the cards you laid down from Deck 1. In other words, the DECK 1 cards are "buried," facedown, under the DECK 2 cards.

When a player flips over the top card (the card from DECK 2) during play, he learns what kind of card is underneath. If the DECK 2 card says TREASURE, then he knows that the card underneath is treasure (but not what kind of treasure, or how many points it is worth, etc). If that player is able to turn the bottom, "buried" DECK 1 card over, he ignores the JUNK and HAZARD sections of the card, and reads the TREASURE section... because the top DECK 2 card told him which part to read.

Similarly, if the top card says JUNK, then the player only pays any mind to the JUNK section of the bottom card, once it is revealed. If it is never revealed, the player never learns what KIND of garbage it was... only that he would have had to read the "JUNK" text if he had turned the bottom card over.

SLiV
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Joined: 10/21/2011
Different problem

I feel like you are all misinterpreting the question (but I might be instead / as well).

I think the proposed problem is this: say you have tiles in the colors red, blue, green and yellow. Say you are looking for red, and you flip a tile. Normally, we would see the color of the tile (either red, blue, green or yellow) and, if it's red, take the tile, and if it isn't, don't take it. However, what we want instead is that we only see if it's red, or if it is NOT red; whether it is blue, green or yellow should remain hidden.

If the opponent is allowed to view the tile, then yeah, that's not that hard: just let the opponent look at it and say if it's red or not. But I suppose that's not a viable option either.

Otherwise, I don't see how this can be done, realistically, without electronics or some other kind of heavy contraption.

Hmm... Maybe you could use colored diagrams and images similar to the color blind tests? Where, to the normal eye, it just looks like a bunch of colored squigly lines and dots, but if you put a red filter over it, a number or a letter appears. Or even better, use cards with evenly spaced letters on them, where words only appear if you put the right black card with holes over it.

Something a bit like this.
http://heroeswiki.com/images/6/66/Hiros_message.jpg

regzr
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Joined: 05/27/2012
Many smart options

SLiV wrote:
I think the proposed problem is this: say you have tiles in the colors red, blue, green and yellow. Say you are looking for red, and you flip a tile. Normally, we would see the color of the tile (either red, blue, green or yellow) and, if it's red, take the tile, and if it isn't, don't take it. However, what we want instead is that we only see if it's red, or if it is NOT red; whether it is blue, green or yellow should remain hidden.
If the opponent is allowed to view the tile, then yeah, that's not that hard: just let the opponent look at it and say if it's red or not. But I suppose that's not a viable option either.

My thoughts went along same lines as SLiV's. But the trouble is worse than red, blue, green and yellow. I'd like to see up to 30 bits of information hidden under a tile, card or square.

I'm mixed-up, with all those smart way out options presented. Thanks. Now I need to think about what each option means in terms of game set-up. That will take time. In the meantime, I put another example of a game where this kind of mechanics may be needed.

The only procedure to handle the situation I knew the day before yesterday was a stack solution. On spot is a stack, in which every bit of information is represented by a separate tile or card. If one is looking for "red", one flips only Red card of the stack. Red card is empty when "red" is not present. If only one color is allowed, players end up collecting "exclude" information. The bad thing is, that the stack can be high if the game is complicated. And the number of stacks is great. The set-up is gonna be a nightmare.

Example #2
A treasure hunt game. Under ground there's many kinds of minerals. Players may gain one equipment at a time and a piece of equipment can detect only one mineral. In basic mode, game board has a square grid, but there are no tokens on them. Squares have been named A1, A2... and so on. One square may or may not possess hidden minerals, one to thirty different kinds. Players walk through the board and hunt minerals, make money and buy more expensive detectors.

The game does not exist. Properly speaking example is meant to lead thoughts far beyond simple example #1. One square can be many things, not just one kind.

seo
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Joined: 07/21/2008

I had something similar to this in a dungeon crawl solitaire I was designing a while ago (but then left unfinished, as usual).

In my game you would have, say, a locked door in one tile, and a key on a card. You would want to know if it was the right key for that particular lock or not. My solution was bar codes on the edge. You would not need a bar code reader or anything, just to place the key/card bar code in front of the bar code on the door on the tile. If they formed a pattern of continuous black and white lines, they match, meaning the key was the right one for that door; if not, the result would have some broken lines, half black, half white.

As long as the bar code is big enough to allow for some 200 lines (a regular bar code has 96 potential lines), the thing would be hard enough to "read" from a distance, but easy enough to see if it the halves matched. And it would not require any special printing, filter or device.

Corsaire
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Joined: 06/27/2013
Given the example 2, here's

Given the example 2, here's one possible mechanic...
Imagine on the face of a card a grid of 5 by 6 representing 30 ores. If you have a symbol in a position, then that ore exists there.

If you have a similar placement on the seeking card and only have the spot for the ore that is being sought. Now you have a blank card stock with one hole in it. You place the seeking card and align the hole with the ore, then slide in an L shaped piece aginst the edge of the seeking card andmlock that in place. Now place the mine card face down in the detector card and line up the sides. Flip it over and you only see through the hole. If you see the ore, then yay.

Hard to describe, hopefully that communicates the idea.

seo
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Joined: 07/21/2008
Corsaire wrote:Given the

Corsaire wrote:
Given the example 2, here's one possible mechanic...
Imagine on the face of a card a grid of 5 by 6 representing 30 ores. If you have a symbol in a position, then that ore exists there.

If you have a similar placement on the seeking card and only have the spot for the ore that is being sought. Now you have a blank card stock with one hole in it. You place the seeking card and align the hole with the ore, then slide in an L shaped piece aginst the edge of the seeking card andmlock that in place. Now place the mine card face down in the detector card and line up the sides. Flip it over and you only see through the hole. If you see the ore, then yay.

Hard to describe, hopefully that communicates the idea.

That has a lot in common with a line of hidden information mechanics that doho123 (Scott Slomiany) has been exploring for a while. You might be interested, in particular, in Dark Water Salvage (http://www.backglass.org/scotts/games/Shipwrecks/html/index.htm). It makes a great use of cards with holes to check only for specific information on other cards without revealing anything else. I had totally forgotten about it until I read your post.

regzr
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Joined: 05/27/2012
Thanks

Hidden information is so fun. Great work, folks! Actually, so great that I have difficulties to digest all. I'm no prof to say what works best and when.

sedjtroll wrote:

That does what you're asking for, except it can't keep cards connected to SPECIFIC cards (the same cards they were connected to last game).

There's a tiny chance that cards can be kept connected to specific cards. Don't know if following works out.

The designer has foreseen a bunch of meaningful sets. The sets written will produce properly match card pairs. Player 1 reads the rule book and picks one set to be used this time. Set-up is delivered in phases.

For a start, player 1 makes a row of cards, face down on the table, in the order rule book says. Then player 2 opens his eyes and secretly puts numbered cards 3,8,2,11... (in the order next chapter in rulebook, "phase two", tells to do) on top of previous row. Player 2 continues by applying card sleeves and by shuffling the first deck. Numbers cannot be seen.

The other set of cards is done in the same manner, player 2 starting phase three. A row of cards is arranged on the table. In phase four player 1 adds numbered cards to preset order, applies card sleeves and shuffles. Quite a job. Players must be honest along the way.

Now neither player knows what card matches what other card. But the two sets are built reasonably(?). Pairs are not random, nor the same from game to game.