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Game that can scale from skirmish to large wargame

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Fri, 02/27/2015 - 17:49
Graxous
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Joined: 02/27/2015

Hello all!
I have been eyeballing the forums and have found them very informative / interesting.

I have been brainstorming a skirmish/wargame idea and thought I would post hoping for some feedback / idea exchange.

I apologize in advance as I am known to ramble at times.

Quick overview - the setting is scifi with some fantasy mixed in (magic does exist) and would ultimately run more like a skirmish game in that the focus is on individual characters instead of faceless masses.

With this in mind, I don't want all of the characters to be solo - but have an option for henchmen. The idea for scale is the larger the game, you add more characters / henchmen.

Activation is alternating unit activation but with an option to interrupt - each unit generates their own action points as a sort of resource management

At the moment I am dwelling on combat. I want the focus to be on the characters and any additional models in their unit be more of a bonus and extra hit point type thing.

Currently I have it as an attacker vs. defender roll a dice pool of d10s and count successes. Successes are dependent on stats. (Say Accuracy stat is 5+ every roll of a 5+ is a success, vs a defensive stat of 3+ for a heavier armored target)

If attacker has more successes than defender, the difference = the damage suffered (most instances remove a henchmen model)

Modifiers are in terms of more dice to the pool.
1d10 base
additional d10s for additional models (the henchmen)

I want to avoid a buckets of dice mechanic (I come from warhammer 40k where I have had to roll over 100 dice in one instance before) so I was thinking the bonus would not be for every individual model, but groups of models depending on their type.

Basic troops = +1d10 per 5 models (max of 20 models)
Elite/special = +1d10 per model (max of 5 models)
Swarm = +1d10 per 10 models (max of 30 models)

Now, I want the characters to be able to choose from different henchmen, have different weapons, armor etc...

I need to differentiate in a way - with the current system could simple use different colored dice - one color for the character and their weapon, and different color for the bonus dice from their henchmen for their weapon.

Differences in weapons would be range, a bonus to dice roll, special rules, and doing more than 1 damage per success for heavy weaponry.

The problem is - I don't know if this would allow me enough variety in the henchmen, where taking different types would matter.

As an alternative I thought about using multiple dice types - the characters would have a larger dice to use, say D10 for the characters, D8 for troops/elite/special and D6 for swarms

I am starting to move away from this thinking though as the math seems off using the current stat system I have, and something different would have to be used like a universal success number (say 4 is always a success) and have more additive bonuses.

What do the masses think? Does using a single die type (the D10) for everything and just using separate colors to differentiate between the Character and the henchmen in the unit suffice?

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Fri, 02/27/2015 - 19:23
#1
Graxous
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Joined: 02/27/2015
The idea overall is wanting

The idea overall is wanting the ability to scale up to size of battle - small battles could have individual pieces moving around, but if you want large ones - a lack of some sort of unit coherency and keeping up with a larger count of models individually could get tedious.

Adding the henchmen to the characters would be a way to scale up by increasing the unit size without exponentially creating more individual units.

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Fri, 02/27/2015 - 19:35
#2
Sliverik
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The combat system seems nice,

The combat system seems nice, and focusing on the main characters is a good idea. I'm not sure what kind of characteristics you will have (in addition to Acurracy and defense).

I would imagine that you actually put a stat for the amount of dice you throw on each characteristic of the hero, which would give, for example:
Accuracy 4, 3+ (4d10, 3+ for success)
And then, why wouldn't the units have similar stat blocks, but with only the amount of dice?
For example: Hunters would have Accuracy of 2, where the stat block is multiplied by the size of the unit (for example once every 5 men, as you suggested).

The example gives then:
The Marksman guy has a 4, 3+ in Accuracy, and he's walking with 15 Hunters. Each fraction of 5 Hunters gives him 2 additional dice, which brings the total Accuracy value to 10, 3+.
Now, if an enemy attacks them, you could imagine the defensive value of the Marksman is 2, 7+, because he only wears light armor. The Hunters would have a defense of 1 (same reason...).

Want more defense? Take marines! They have 3 per 5 men (bringing the defense to 11, 7+: far better!), but then, their Accuracy skill may be lower, forcing the player to choose the best hero/henchmen combination.

The good point about this is that the henchmen only count as "bonus" to the character's stats. The impression is that of playing fights between heroes "and their men" instead of real armies of masses.
The downpoint is that you'll have to do the maths about what each stat's value actually is at every moment.

Variety in the henchmen, before you add special rules, is already defined by the variety your stat block system allows you. Let's say a normal group of 5 humans would take a value of 2 everywhere, you can easily find tons of personnalisation to do. And then, add special rules. The Marines have lower accuracy, but they lower the difficulty by 1, because of advanced target-trackers for the hero. (Or whatever)

You can also add "bonuses" by denying the ennemy's dice. For example, a force-field shield could remove 2 dice automaticly from the shooting attacker.

I think that this makes it easier to keep only a single type of dice. You could add d8s and d12s, or others, but sometimes, shifting the difficulty by 1 in a direction or another would make an easier job. (The results are not t

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Fri, 02/27/2015 - 21:31
#3
Graxous
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Good points and I hadn't

Good points and I hadn't thought of part of the stat dictating the amount of die.
I was planning to have a base of 1d10 and then added dice for the henchmen and any modifiers (shooting at half range, or a bigger target, add another d10 for example)

I will need to play with that idea to see how much wider the range is in outcomes

Stats wise looking at:
The following having a +# for the stat (such as 3+ needs to roll 3+ to succeed)
Accuracy: Ranged attack
Might: Melee attack
Resilience: Defensive stat
Will: Can be both offensive or defensive - used to cast spells, resist fear
Agility (may change name to reaction): used an initiative in interrupt actions done on the opposing players turn and in melee combat.

I also toyed with the idea that if you are attacking something with a better Agility than your accuracy / might you get a penalty to show that faster things are harder to hit.

In addition to those stats are also Move and Size
Move is how many inches the model can move in an activation
Size would be small, med, large (or using base sizes) - attacking a smaller target would be harder to hit, attacking a larger would be easier.

Right now how the idea is in my head, say a unit consists of a character and 10 "troop" type characters.

So lets say "Zeek the marksman" and his 10 riflemen are making an attack.
"Zeek" 's Accuracy stat is a 3+ so every 3+ he rolls is a success.
The riflemen aren't nearly as good as Zeek and their accuracy is a 5+

In this scenario lets say Zeek has a bonus of some sort that gives him an extra die.
Since the riflemen give a supporting die for every 5 guys they have, they give 2 die.
So for a total we have two "zeek" dice that need a 3+ and 2 "riflemen" die that need a 5+
the total amount of successes is compared to the targets defensive roll in a similar fashion - the difference in successes = damage delt.

To add variation Zeek may be weilding a heavy type weapon, so his successes count as 2 damage each
The marksmen may have "inferno ammo" which has an extra flame or heat type effect.

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Fri, 02/27/2015 - 21:45
#4
Sliverik
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If everyone gets 1 die per

If everyone gets 1 die per stat, and only changes its difficulty, the balance is easier for you, that's for sure.
Let's put an example stat-block for Zeek, so we can talk about something^^

Accuracy 3+
Might 7+
Resilience 7+
Will 6+
Agility 4+

If each stat is tested with only one die (let's forget about henchmen for now), an interesting (and quite easy) way to add equipment is to add the amount of dice it allows. A basic ranged weapon wouldn't add any die. A normal rifle could add 1 die, etc...
A light armor could add one die, a medium armor two dice and the heavy armor could add three...
You could easily find items for each stat, and if you add special effects (Sniper rifle: only one die, but deals double damage and has a bonus of +2 to hit), you could acutally create a lot of them, and personnalising your characters would be very interesting. (Of course, I suppose there would be some limited money you can spend in equipment, or "points" like in warhammer, or something else.)

Now coming back to the henchmen. The way I understand your point, they are like separated characters. They throw their dice with their own difficulty checks. That is slightly slower than adding dice to the character, but is more realistic. The concern is about balancing a single character versus a small unit.
How powerful are the characters in the background? Are they legendary heroes? In this case, let them beat 15+ henchmen easily. Are they gangers? Well in this case, only the strongest of them should be able to take 5 henchmen easily. This should define how powerful a unit actually is. And whichever choice you take, ask yourself: What is the advantage of taking a unit over a character? A character over a unit? Why should I make a balanced army when I could only take characters, much more efficient than the units? (well, I guess you already know about all this^^)

You should test quickly all the possible ways to resolve a fight between some "basic" characters and units. You could do a simulation sheet on excel, for example, or go by hand and throw dice. Which way seems the easiest? The most rewarding?

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Fri, 02/27/2015 - 21:49
#5
Ecarots
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Joined: 08/23/2013
A mechanics example for you.

Try to lay your hands on DIrtside II rules. The combat mechanics there may be of use to you as a starting point. No huge number of dice used. De type varies depending on armor and weaponry. They range from D4 to D12.

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Fri, 02/27/2015 - 22:28
#6
Graxous
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Joined: 02/27/2015
Yes, a point / money

Yes, a point / money expenditure system is in mind to use as game balance.

With the Character vs. Henchmen - each Character's henchmen would be "attached" to them with a unit coherency (something like the models are within 2" of the each other as in other wargames), and move / act with the character.

Dice would be rolled at the same time as a single attack. Best way to differentiate would be colors of dice.

So Zeek and his henchmen all attack the same target at the same time. Zeek could have red dice and the henchmen have blue dice.

So I roll all of the dice - any red that are 3+ are a success, and any blue that are 5+ are a success.

Some thoughts on character vs. henchmen I was thinking of:

Henchmen will either always have 1 hit point, or toying with the idea some have more (to show a difference between a normal person and a beefy creature).
Characters always have multiple - say a base of 3 - so 1 damage to remove a henchman model, and 3 damage before removing a Character

Characters will normally have access to more or better options / upgrades

Another thing I am toying with is Characters are not instantly removed from play - but incapacitated. Lay the model on the side to give a chance for other models to aid them (say a Medic) or have their own sort of self regeneration through special rules, etc...

Power wise in the story setting Characters are not godlike, but in game term should be able to take on an average of 3 henchmen easily.

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