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The objective of 'MORE'

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Fri, 08/19/2016 - 02:34
rstraker
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Anybody else feel that the motive to get more - wealth, land, general domination, etc, teaches bad things? Excessiveness, greed, etc. Since people learn deeply through games, it seems an important consideration.

But it's hard to think of alternative motives -- getting more than the others is just 'built in',, apparently (though i'd say 'learned in').

I'm working on a game now which cries for such an objective, but I can't bring myself to contribute to the negative paradigm/culture/ideology. Trying to figure an alternative narrative/objective isn't coming easy though.

(Semi/)Coop objectives seem a harder dynamic to design. True?

Survival games avoid the issue, which may be part of their popularity lately. The appeal of unnecessary accumulation is dying off perhaps.?.

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Fri, 08/19/2016 - 07:16
#1
Tedthebug
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What about encouraging

What about encouraging donations? Players are penalised if their income reaches a certain amount. It can be offset by donations. The effect is greater if players opt to make a set donation each turn, one off donations are more expensive for that turn. The effect is greater again the earlier in the game the player opts to start the donation. Players then need to balance short term gain (more money early in the game) against long term benefit (setting the donation amount lower by doing it early in the game)

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Fri, 08/19/2016 - 08:42
#2
gilamonster
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"Getting more" is probably

"Getting more" is probably hard-coded into humans - I suspect that it is an important part of survival strategy. It's perfectly true that it can get out of hand in some people, but for others it drives them to be more good or altruistic - perhaps driving them to try to claim a higher moral high-ground if you like.

I'm not personally convinced that negative game mechanics (particularly mild ones like building a bigger heap of stuff than the other players) will really cause many people to alter their behavior in real life. I know this is a long-standing debate, but for me, the fun of such games is that any such negative tendencies get directed into a harmless, even a positive activity, which is clearly differentiated from reality (for me and, I strongly suspect, for most other people too). But there are many people who disagree with this (some of whom I respect a great deal, and even play appropriately chosen board games with). So if you succeed, there will certainly be people who will enjoy your games.

A bit of practical advice: perhaps you should offer multiple winning or point-scorring conditions, with some rewarding positive or altruistic behaviour, and others 'nasty' - an old fashioned example might be 'shooting the moon' in Black Maria/Hearts, or alternatively the various non-military victory conditions in the civilization computer games.

Alternatively, make games with non-zero-sum mechanics, where any action that you perform will also benefit at least one other player directly. Indigo with three or four players is probably a good example of this.

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Fri, 08/19/2016 - 08:41
#3
alandor
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I'm not sure what you mean by

I'm not sure what you mean by 'learning deeply'. Is it a theme issue or a game mechanic issue? Theme wise it shouldn't be too hard to gear the game towards accumulating victory points that represent reputation (for doing good things) or karma or sanctification etc. But if you feel like the game mechanic of accumulating victory points (whatever they represent) encourages greed then that wouldn't be a solution. I'm not sure I'd agree with that though.

I do agree that values conveyed through games are important and I think about that in my game ideas. For me it has mostly been about avoiding violent themes.

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Sat, 08/20/2016 - 12:14
#4
mcobb83
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I find co-op objectives

I find co-op objectives easier to design than non-co-op, but then my preference has always been for co-op games. While "getting more" is a common objective there are many others. However, games are by nature competitive and that pretty much means getting more than the other guy.

Some concepts that illustrate the point- the players are a group of miners trapped under ground and trying to escape.

The players are circus performers trying to put on a great show while simultaneously tring to prevent the ring master from completing his plans to summon the evil clown god.

The players are search and rescue workers trying to find disaster victims, only to find X (X could be anything!)

The players are dragon conservationists trying to prevent an evil mega Corp from capturing wild dragons.

Just a few examples of co-op ideas that don't have "getting more" as the principle game concept.

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Sat, 08/20/2016 - 14:21
#5
chris_mancini
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Perhaps if the focus is not

Perhaps if the focus is not solely on collecting "more," but what you do with it? Place the focus on the good that can be done with a mass accumulation of wealth, or land, or what have you.

Saving beautiful park land from over-development? Accumulating money to donate to a range of charities? Harvesting the most food to feed a community? Basically gathering "stuff" to benefit a group other than solely yourself at the end of the game?

I think theme and tone have a lot to do with it, and you can help give players an impression of how they should feel about their accumulation and why they're striving for it.

Survival games are a great example, especially as the focus of the things accumulated are more basic like food, first aid, fuel, etc. Things we at times take for granted, which become glaringly valuable within the game's setting. Perfect example of steering the players' perception through theme!

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Mon, 08/22/2016 - 08:33
#6
rstraker
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Good points

Encourage donations, nice mechanic there -- I think Monopoly started with this ideal, by a socialist lady a long time ago,, but was changed.

Multiple objectives, good solution.. considering that currently. Will look up 'Indigo' too.

Use theme / narrative to portray it less about greed / out-doing others: Trying to think of how 'Catan', for example, could be presented as such.

Thanks for the insights.

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Mon, 08/22/2016 - 08:44
#7
let-off studios
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Loss Is Gain

rstraker wrote:
I'm working on a game now which cries for such an objective, but I can't bring myself to contribute to the negative paradigm/culture/ideology. Trying to figure an alternative narrative/objective isn't coming easy though.
I'm personally influenced by that kind of mindset as well. For a long time I've pondered how to come up with a game where the objective was to effectively rid yourself of all your possessions quicker than all the other players. There was a roll-and-move joke game based on MAD Magazine back in the 1980's where the goal was to lose all your money and as you moved around the Monopoly-style board. When you landed on most of the spaces you ended up gaining cash or switching your bankroll with other players at the table. It was rather simple and good for a laugh, but that's about it.

Theoretically, I think one way to approach this style of game is to offer rewards for having less of something than the rest of the players. Another method is to afford penalties to those players who have too much of something. Finally, a third option is to allow a maximum load for players to carry, where the objective is to optimize their load-out for success at the game objective. I'm sure there are others, but off the top of my head this is what I'm able to think of.

And Game Objective should be a primary concern of yours at this stage. The big question it seems like you're facing is: what kind of game do you want to make where the objective is to have less of something than everyone else to be the winner?

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Mon, 08/22/2016 - 11:53
#8
rstraker
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less is more

MAD, ha -- They got the right idea.

So ya, those are 3 good routes - food for thought. And nicely boiled down at the end there -- "to have less of something than everyone else.."

Perhaps best to work backwards from that objective, with a conducive theme in mind. Vikings seem not too conducive - (my current project - not too original a theme, but has a couple alright things going for it -- but, as I said, hard to get past the basic 4x gameplay ideas).

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