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Constructive criticism is the key... let's remember to keep it constructive!

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sedjtroll
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Just a reminder... the purpose of these boards are to be helpful and courteous to fellow designers. To try to be positive and supportive of designers with the efforts they put into the community.

All of the designers here on BGDF are looking for constructive criticism and honest, but positive, feedback from the community.

That isn't to say that we should all just pat each other on the back... the way we improve our craft is through analysis and criticism of each others work. But remember to keep the criticism constructive, and there's never a need to criticize the designer, only the game design.

Happy designing!

adversitygames
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"there's never a need to

"there's never a need to criticize the designer, only the game design."

No-one ever *needs* to do either. I choose to when I think it will get taken seriously, whether the result is agreement or disagreement.

A lot of people (such as myself) are able to receive personal criticism constructively. Avoiding personal criticism of all designers would deny these people the opportunity to improve.

Now there are *certain designers* that I wont offer criticism, because it's a waste of my time and effort, but I think there are plenty that actually find it useful.

Soulfinger
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iamseph wrote:Now there are

iamseph wrote:
Now there are *certain designers* that I wont offer criticism, because it's a waste of my time and effort, but I think there are plenty that actually find it useful.

I've sometimes wondered how much silence on a topic reflects negativity versus apathy. Does decorum mean avoiding some posts like they are panhandling vagrants? Clearly, if I don't have anything nice to say, I'm thrilled to kvetch, just as my love of accosting hobos has earned me the Olympic gold in knife-fighting. I'm not asking how I can improve as a forum user, but rather, is any sort of feedback better than receiving no feedback at all on account of a project being a perceived waste of time?

chris_mancini
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I for one think that no

I for one think that no response at all is the worst...the feeling that no one could even be bothered with replying or critiquing. Some people need brutal honesty, and while it's important to separate the person from the product when offering criticism, it's also equally important that those on the receiving end also recognize that a condemnation is not on them personally, but their product which is probably in great need of reworking.

I think Soulfinger is one of the best contributors to our community, as no one comes with the humor and wit mixed with truly valuable insights that he does. He can be the wagging Mutombo finger in the face of those who come with a weak lay-up of a game.

He's on of those guys who when I see the name as recently replying to an OP, I check out what he has to say, regardless of the topic. It's not out of morbid curiosity, but out of knowing that whatever the reply, it will be thoughtful, intelligent and most likely entertaining!

n1x012
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chris_mancini wrote:I for one

chris_mancini wrote:
I for one think that no response at all is the worst...the feeling that no one could even be bothered with replying or critiquing.

Agreed. It's the way I feel as I watch the views on my thread go up, but the comments stay at zero.

chris_mancini
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I've experienced both; the

I've experienced both; the posts in which I introduce a game idea, going through the core concepts like theme and mechanics, seem to get a decent response. One even became a pretty long thread which resulted in a complete game which I've been shopping to publishers! I think the success of that thread was largely in part to the fresh theme which drew people in...while everyone here loves a good space or fantasy game, something unfamiliar can be a refreshing theme to put one's head around and offer ideas. At least that's what I attribute that particular game's response to...

I've also posted about certain game designs which just don't catch on; typically the very light or party games just don't elicit as much of a response here. Perhaps it's because a light/party game doesn't have enough meat for people to offer thoughts and alternatives, or it just comes off as a "check out my game" thread rather than one asking for feedback.

Personally speaking, I tend to not read or post on threads pertaining to "deep" games, because they're not the kind I enjoy or would be able to offer helpful commentary on. I do like the theoretical "bigger question" posts, and posts about the business, manufacturing and marketing of games because that's an area I have some experience in.

I'll be posting info on my Kickstarter once it's ready, as another type of thread which the community seems to rally around is the important pre-launch campaign page review...gives people a chance to offer opinions on the campaign before it goes live, and I've seen it be immensely helpful here.

X3M
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"The silence is deafening."

chris_mancini wrote:

Personally speaking, I tend to not read or post on threads pertaining to "deep" games, because they're not the kind I enjoy or would be able to offer helpful commentary on.

I think 99% indeed doesn't read the "deep" games actually. They peek, but don't read if it is deep or a long post.

I felt this from day one. And started to work on getting my posts as short as possible. In order to get feedback. Still failing today though in sufficient shortening. But I am thankful for any feedback that I had. Either positive or negative. All feedback on idea's are welcome. Even if it is through email (o man, those are still awesome)

Further, I think we all agree on getting at least some feedback. Even if it isn't cotton candy.

I admit. I don't see the point of me reacting to some topics. Since I have 0 experience in it myself. Or I cannot give a positive twirl to the situation. Or the game itself is of no interest to me.

ruy343
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Thanks, sedjtroll

The irony is, the "troll" is the one telling people to be more constructive with their feedback! :)

having posted a few dead threads in the past, I think that one important reason that people don't respond to a thread is because they feel that you've thought things out, and that they don't have anything to add. The other side of the coin is the threads where the person has done a lot of work, and it takes you a lot of time to evaluate what they have to say, so you don't find to time to respond (that happens to me all the time these days). I recommend that people who want responses should keep their thread posts shorter, so it takes less mental work to catch the drift of the original post, so they can hop into the discussion sooner. Perhaps a brief introduction post, with a query about whether others want to hear more about it.

Just my $0.02

adversitygames
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ruy343 wrote:having posted a

ruy343 wrote:
having posted a few dead threads in the past, I think that one important reason that people don't respond to a thread is because they feel that you've thought things out, and that they don't have anything to add. The other side of the coin is the threads where the person has done a lot of work, and it takes you a lot of time to evaluate what they have to say, so you don't find to time to respond (that happens to me all the time these days). I recommend that people who want responses should keep their thread posts shorter, so it takes less mental work to catch the drift of the original post, so they can hop into the discussion sooner. Perhaps a brief introduction post, with a query about whether others want to hear more about it.

Another way of helping this out is being specific about what you want.

So you could have a ton of content in a post, then ask a question about a specific area of it, which gives people who don't have a ton of time something they can do more easily.

Then if someone *does* want to go through everything and give feedback they still have that option.

adversitygames
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Soulfinger wrote:I'm not

Soulfinger wrote:
I'm not asking how I can improve as a forum user, but rather, is any sort of feedback better than receiving no feedback at all on account of a project being a perceived waste of time?

Better for the recipient? Sure.

But if I reasonably expect my input to fall on death ears, why would I try to help them? I've only got so much time to spend.

Soulfinger
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iamseph wrote:But if I

iamseph wrote:
But if I reasonably expect my input to fall on death ears, why would I try to help them? I've only got so much time to spend.

Well, that's where the bitter sarcasm and obvious self-loathing comes into play though. I like to think it is worthwhile to waste some time on occasion in the hopes of being proven wrong, or at least to reinforce my inherent biases.

Also, your typo of "Fall on Death Ears" is one of the best metal band names ever, and nobody is even using it yet. I'd love to see a board game called that . . . or at least the cover for either.

X3M
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it's.....just an opinion. Notching more.

You know. I was thinking about the once suggested ranking system.
There could have been a "troll" rank amongst them. So that people know that these guys are only here to "troll" or whatever they provide the forums. (Of course; no racism, treats or etc. what I am used to by now in other forums)

The more experienced lurkers would know that there is a valid lesson to learn from such "troll" posts.

Getting hardened for the buisness should be part of the lessons that people seek here. Because, when it happens in real life. It is/feels so much worse.

Computers have an on/off button. And a plug.
Real life has it too! But should not be used.

I still find your posts constructive Soulfinger. And the humour is for my tastes. So I invite you to, if you ever reply to one of my posts. To make my day :)
As long as it remains constructive, that is.

Soulfinger
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X3M wrote:You know. I was

X3M wrote:
You know. I was thinking about the once suggested ranking system.
There could have been a "troll" rank amongst them. So that people know that these guys are only here to "troll" or whatever they provide the forums. (Of course; no racism, treats or etc. what I am used to by now in other forums)

I hate the term "troll" though, because it most accurately applies to drunken teenagers, bedridden racists, and bots spamming Viagra. A great thing about this forum is that users are miraculously constrained when it comes to comparing board games to the color of our president's skin.

What bothers me is how frequently the term is leveraged as a ready-made slur to instantly marginalize someone's opinion. On one sort-of-art site I used to frequent there were massive forum threads devoted to identifying, ostracizing, and reporting trolls. However, I noticed that most of these offenders were children with poorly developed skills or those who simply enjoyed a different user experience. I've seen people called out for being trolls merely on account of different social contexts and cultural understandings. For example, as sensitive as I am about swastikas (my mother was in a concentration camp), I found myself defending their use on at least a couple occasions, as the symbol has a wholly different meaning for users in Asia.

My posting style is deliberate, because I do tend to role play my pseudonyms to some extent, and that little avatar image is meant to represent my tone. I don't mind being called out for that, but I think institutionalizing a term, like "troll," would enable its abuse in both senses and degrade the site. This site's users are too clever by far not to use more precise descriptors.

I do think you are right about getting hard . . . for business. There should be a sandblasting chamber for ideas. This site isn't the venue for that, but I've been hesitant to do it as an independent blog, because tearing down ideally should be followed up by some very time-consuming building up, and a blog of its own would be divorced from the supportive framework of users that a site like this has to contextualize people like me.

adversitygames
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Soulfinger wrote:Also, your

Soulfinger wrote:
Also, your typo of "Fall on Death Ears" is one of the best metal band names ever, and nobody is even using it yet. I'd love to see a board game called that . . . or at least the cover for either.

It would have to be a really corny cover.

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