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Perfectionnism and OCD in game design: Virtue or Flaw

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larienna
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Since most game are 80% complete, it seems that nobody has the dedication to push the line further, but a perfectionnist person or somebody with obsessive compulsive disorder would push that line further by making sure everything is "Perfect" (to his point of view).

Now in every day live, it's not a necessity to be perfectionnist it can actually be annoying, but in board game design, would it worth it to have taken into account every detail possible the designer can percieve.

As a library technician, I often say that a part of my job could be renamed "detail management" as for example I need to use 1100 page rule book for cataloguing (the newer version has more). Maybe this is one of the reason I am so much obsessed with detail.

ElKobold
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Main issue here is

Main issue here is communication with other people in your team who might not share your obsession ;)

X3M
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I might post about my

I might post about my obsession. But you don't have to read it. Further more, I don't bother any one with my secondary benefits of my hobby. I like analysing everything out of something.

radioactivemouse
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Sorry

larienna wrote:
Since most game are 80% complete, it seems that nobody has the dedication to push the line further, but a perfectionnist person or somebody with obsessive compulsive disorder would push that line further by making sure everything is "Perfect" (to his point of view).

I'm really sorry, but I have no clue what you mean by the above statement, which makes it hard for me to understand the rest of your post. Are you talking about game designs that never get finished or game designs that are released, but don't feel complete? And where does 80% come from? Sounds like a number pulled out of nowhere. If you're talking about unfinished games, I will tell you that most games are NOT at 80%, rather they are at various stages...10%, 95%, 50%, etc. there's no "average" of 80% nor is it that designers magically stop at this 80% mark.

From my "interpretation", it seems like you're talking about several things. 1) Unfinished games and the dedication to finish them, 2) Pushing the envelope when it involves innovation in games, 3) Designers would possibly work better if they felt like they knew everything they needed at their disposal and 4) Designers would probably work better if they had the tenacity that a people with OCD have. Unfortunately, since your post is kinda all over the place, I'm just having a hard time understanding it.

I'm truly sorry.

larienna
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I wrote an article about this

I wrote an article about this some time ago according to a book that I read that had that following citation:

"Making an 80% game is very easy. A lot of games out there are just 80% finished. With more testing the game could be more elegant and the last 20% takes a lot of time. That's the difficult part. - Reiner Knizia "

The article can be found here:

http://bgd.lariennalibrary.com/index.php?n=DesignArticle.Article-Incompl...

80% can also be based on pareto's law.

Most game designer stop their design too soon when they get a game in working state. But a perfectionnist is less likely to stop there because he wants everything to be perfect (which is of course unchievable) but it is still better to try achieving perfection than not trying at all.

Quote:
Main issue here is communication with other people in your team who might not share your obsession ;)

When designing as a team, that is another issue. I imagine for video game design, if the art designer is obssessed, it will reach as far as the art department. But in video game design, the real limit will be money available for the project.

radioactivemouse
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Now I know...

larienna wrote:
I wrote an article about this some time ago according to a book that I read that had that following citation:

"Making an 80% game is very easy. A lot of games out there are just 80% finished. With more testing the game could be more elegant and the last 20% takes a lot of time. That's the difficult part. - Reiner Knizia "

The article can be found here:

http://bgd.lariennalibrary.com/index.php?n=DesignArticle.Article-Incompl...

80% can also be based on pareto's law.

Most game designer stop their design too soon when they get a game in working state. But a perfectionnist is less likely to stop there because he wants everything to be perfect (which is of course unchievable) but it is still better to try achieving perfection than not trying at all.

Quote:
Main issue here is communication with other people in your team who might not share your obsession ;)

When designing as a team, that is another issue. I imagine for video game design, if the art designer is obssessed, it will reach as far as the art department. But in video game design, the real limit will be money available for the project.

You gotta reference these things...assume no one knows what you're talking about when you write a post. In all honesty, I thought you pulled this 80% out of your arse.

But it still doesn't excuse the fact that your original post was difficult to understand. It was basically a jumping off point from your article and no one here knew that.

Just a thought.

saluk
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More development time may be

More development time may be better. But there are different approaches. You can spend 10 years on one game, and still find out after it is released that there are things that you missed. Or, in those 10 years, you can make 20 different games, learning from each one things that you may never have learned if you just focused on making 1 perfect game. The second approach is more cost effective so you see it more often - but from a creativity standpoint I think it still has merit. Unless you are able to playtest with 10,000 people before you release, you will never learn as much from testing as you will learn from a launch.

If you look at Knizia's work it should be clear that he is not too much of a perfectionist. He chooses a lot of game ideas that are simple enough to be able to fully explore them.

You should definitely take the time to fully develop the idea, but you also must know when to set it free.

larienna
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Quote:It was basically a

Quote:
It was basically a jumping off point from your article and no one here knew that.

Well I forgot I wrote this article. And when you asked for some reference I looked back at my web site and found more than I was expecting (I forgot Knizia said that).

Sure, you cannot reach 100 perfection. In theory it would take 20% of time to design 80% of the game, while 80% of time to finish the last 20% of the game. So if your working game took 1 year to make 80%, it would take another 4 years to finish that 20%.

We all don't have the time for that. But we can still try to push a bit further, give the game some time to rest before jumping into it again before finally releasing it. So that we could maybe reach 85% or 90%.

-----------------------------------------------------------

But just to be back on topic, does people with OCD and perfectionnist are advantaged over other designers for pushing their game further. Is it something we should encourage game designers to become?

radioactivemouse
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OCD and Perfectionist...

OCD and perfectionist doesn't always equal "good game". Sure it may mean they can complete a game, but it doesn't always translate into fun.

To me, engineering "fun" is separate from completing a project or even having the mental capacity to get everything perfect. No game is perfect; all games have some flaws in them.

questccg
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Not!

larienna wrote:
But just to be back on topic, does people with OCD and perfectionnist are advantaged over other designers for pushing their game further. Is it something we should encourage game designers to become?

Just want to remind you that OCD is not a SKILL. It's a dysfunction ... and can be a very prohibitive one at that. You're talking as if people with OCD have superior reasoning skills. On the contrary what ever "part" of OCD you see as being "GOOD" ignores completely the fact that many people with OCD have a VERY difficult life... Just doing simple things like brushing your teeth, a person with OCD could have problems doing.

I don't think anyone with OCD actually designs board games. Like I said they have enough "challenges" with patterns and repetition (and obviously obsession). But I could be wrong because I know for a fact that people who used to write children stories and fairy tales were schizophrenic.

However if you actually understood the "daily" challenges people with OCD struggle with, you would probably not see it as a skill or "advantage"... You're just assuming that because people with OCD pay a closer (and TOO CLOSE) of attention to everything they do such that they need to repeat patterns, things need to be in the right place, etc. Things not being in the correct spot could "paralyze" a person with OCD. Imagine if their tooth brush is not in the cup... Somebody took it out... A person with OCD could be lost and not know what to do. Like I say, it's not a skill... it's a dysfunction.

X3M
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OCD is indeed an disorder.

OCD is indeed an disorder. They don't like having that. Nor can they work on any thing. And is not to be compared with perfectionists.

ADHD comes closer to perfectionists. And I know one, and it is cool if you look at it and treat it positive. And know how to use it well, someone with ADHD can be of great help.

I think that you meant ADHD, not OCD.

let-off studios
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Skill Cultivation

larienna wrote:
[...]does people with OCD and perfectionnist are advantaged over other designers for pushing their game further. Is it something we should encourage game designers to become?
If I were to encourage a game designer to be anything, key character traits and skills to cultivate would be persistence, a desire and process/system to troubleshoot, critical thinking, and a thick skin/ability to not take critique personally. Not only do these traits assist people with game design, but they're also useful in many other aspects of life. All of these things can be learned, over time.

Also, snaps up for citing the Pareto Principle. :)

Rick L
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I wonder if the OP was using

I wonder if the OP was using the term OCD figuratively, as many creators tend to obsess over every detail of their creation. There's an old saying that an artist never "finishes" a work - he (or she) only gets to a point where they are comfortable giving up on it.

At some point, we all have to say "enough! The game I designed is working pretty well, everyone enjoys playing it, and even though I still think of little tweaks that might make a little improvement, I can't keep testing the game forever - time to print!"

Rick L
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Obsessing over your game

Obsessing over your game design can lead to great breakthroughs in better gameplay and fixing problems, so in those cases obsessing is a virtue. I have had several breakthroughs come this way - I'm sure we all have!

If you can't stop obsessing over the details and realize you already have a solid design that is ready for the next step, your obsessing becomes a flaw.

larienna
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Of course, there are various

Of course, there are various levels of OCD. I am more talking about mild OCD. Like for example, I tend to obsessed with numbers. This is a kind of obsession that could influence game design. Other obsessions might not.

larienna
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As for ADHD, I am not really

As for ADHD, I am not really sure, it's more people that cannot stand in place. They could maybe be capable for doing more work that the average person, but not sure they will necessarily push it further. They might do something to get rid of it.

As for ADD (Attention deficit disorder), which I also have due to sleep disorder, it has certain advantage for the creative exploration phase because I can easily daydream. But I also lose a lot of time daydreaming on meaningless stuff.

saluk
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larienna wrote:As for ADHD, I

larienna wrote:
As for ADHD, I am not really sure, it's more people that cannot stand in place. They could maybe be capable for doing more work that the average person, but not sure they will necessarily push it further. They might do something to get rid of it.

As for ADD (Attention deficit disorder), which I also have due to sleep disorder, it has certain advantage for the creative exploration phase because I can easily daydream. But I also lose a lot of time daydreaming on meaningless stuff.

I think that is a good example of what you are trying to say. Getting away from disorders specificially, we all bring different personalities into design, and those aspects can be beneficial or harmful. My problem is in coming up with new ideas and having difficulty actually focusing on one long enough to develop it. But it's also a strength, as many times those "new" ideas, within a project, are the thing that makes it come together.

The key I think is to discover ourselves and where our value lies, and then learn how to make a good use of what it is we bring to the table. If you are really into numbers, than the best designs to work on are going to be very mathy. If you try to do something more subjective, like a party game, it may be very difficult for you.

But then, focusing too much on strengths can lead to problems as well. Your game that is very focused on math and economics may be too complicated for people who don't share your passion for numbers. How much do you want to simplify things to bring a wider audience without diluting the purity you were going for?

larienna
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It's true that it's harder

It's true that it's harder for me to deal with text abilities than setting numbers on units for example. It seems I have to list all possible combinations of text abilities, then draw from that pool of abilities and make sure the distribution of those abilities through the game is evenly distributed.

You see, that is the kind of obsession I have.

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