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How much is too much

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krone9
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Joined: 01/28/2017

So I'm getting pretty pleased with my game - its effectively got 2 aspects which mean its not too repetitive and a few different ways of playing depending on the route you take at the start. So different games, decent level of complexity and enough choice to make it feel like a game of skill.

I had one aspect that was functional but a bit clunky and then spoke to a random connection on a chat room who suggested a great idea but its adding another level of complexity.

So my question is....

I could keep adding detail and complexity to it and make it more and more immersive (and harder and harder to get started with)
At the moment I have a LONG rulebook but thats mainly because its detailed in terms of how to play. Most of the feedback I get is that its straightforward and not that complex.

Adding more is making me a bit nervous that I'm over complicating - but like I say I like the idea thats been suggested.

What brilliant ideas do people have for knowing where to draw the line?

X3M
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Refine the basics first? Then

Refine the basics first?
Then consider this question again. But with the intention of an expansion set to the game. That is, if that is possible.

krone9
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Joined: 01/28/2017
I'm pretty happy with the

I'm pretty happy with the basics - its mainly around exactly how much starting cash to give and slight tweaks in the game rather than anything major.

However....I could keep layering on complexity and whilst I'm familiar with the game it will work, it raises the barrier to entry for a new player.

Expansion is not a bad idea - its quite a fundamental change though - its a case of balancing the value add with the complexity add.

Rick L
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I'm glad you're approaching

I'm glad you're approaching this cautiously - it can be easy to get carried away with new ideas and new layers, and make a convoluted mess of what once was a great game.

Then the exact opposite can be true - one extra detail or a change in direction could make all the difference!

I'm actually at the same point as you are with my game. I've even tried out several variations that I liked in theory, only to find that they didn't work as well as I'd hoped, so I went back to my original rules. Most of the time. There were some changes I kept, but the biggest changes that I tried just left too many things to adjust in the rest of the game.

My advice, which may not be good at all - take it for what you will - is to put together the stuff you need for your new layer of complexity and play-test it. It's the only way you're going to know for sure, but more importantly, it's the only way you'll be able to give up on whichever version ends up being worse. Without trying, you're always going to wonder if your game could've been better in some way.

krone9
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Joined: 01/28/2017
good advice. Have added the

good advice. Have added the variant and hoping to playtest it tomorrow night

Daggaz
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"My game is simple and

"My game is simple and straightforward" and "the rule book is very long" are contradictory statements. Either you just did a bad job explaining the rules, which gets unlikelier the longer the book is, or you are fooling yourself.

Game complexity needs to be an emergent property as much as possible. Rules, especially those handling special cases, need to be as limited as possible.

If your rulebook is so long you feel the need to mention it while defending the simplicity of your game, then you probably need to look for existing parts of the game you can thin out and simplify, before adding new material.

krone9
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just noticed I never replied

just noticed I never replied to this :)

I think I have a tendency to overexplain things in the rulebook. The game is pretty straight forward to play and plays well with people but its not a simple game. By that I mean that its a pretty long game but not desperately complex. Complexity has - as you say - emerged during play and there's a few little things that have come from feedback.

What I'm not looking for is to reduce the game experience - this isn't a quick pick up and play game (though I am also looking at creating some scenarios/start points so you could do exactly that). But I'm not convinced I am the best person at writing "punchy" rules. I'm not looking to create a "simple" game in this one, but I am looking to create a "straight forward"/intuitive game - and thats the difference. (and I should watch my terminology on forums!)

At the moment I'm at 23 pages in a Google doc but that can probably be reduced down by layout/typeface etc. It might be fine.

As an aside, what I'm finding through playtesting is that I need to use the rulebook as whilst I obviously know the game having designed it, little tweaks from playtesting sometimes get forgotten. I've had a couple of times when I've played the game, doing everything from memory, and found a couple of problems in game that I'd previously fixed and forgotten about.

let-off studios
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Rulebooks

krone9 wrote:
...But I'm not convinced I am the best person at writing "punchy" rules. I'm not looking to create a "simple" game in this one, but I am looking to create a "straight forward"/intuitive game - and thats the difference. (and I should watch my terminology on forums!)
Have you thought about creating a play-aid for your players? What I mean is something like a card or small sheet of paper that indicates "On Your Turn" or "In One Round" or something like that. This can distill the game to its core actions, and allow players to refer to the rulebook occasionally instead of frequently.

It can also clue you in on areas of your rulebook that need clarification. The result is that you can spend less space on the stuff that's easy for a player to pick up, and more time and space on the edge cases or instances of complex rules/situations. This will naturally reduce the volume of your rulebook, and in a worthwhile, logical way.

Creating a play-aid is a useful design exercise, too. Your avoidance of "writing punchy rules" hints perhaps at a skill you don't think you possess. Give it a try and you might surprise yourself. :)

krone9 wrote:
As an aside, what I'm finding through playtesting is that I need to use the rulebook as whilst I obviously know the game having designed it, little tweaks from playtesting sometimes get forgotten.
There's no real substitute for taking notes as you play, then transferring/backing them up on a computer somewhere. If you're hoping to progress with this project, I'd suggest you work this process into a habit. Secondly, it might seem like an immense chore each time you consider editing a 20+ page rulebook. You may find that, once your rules are a little less thick, you won't resist the urge to dig in and change a few things here and there.

Practically speaking, after your rulebook has been trimmed down it's likely you won't have to backtrack and/or check several different sections in your rulebook to make sure you've caught everything.

AbErRational
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If the base mechanics are

If the base mechanics are well in line with the theme you've chosen and the theme doesn't feel badly pasted on, then I think there isn't any pressure to incorporate new things into the game.

If the situation is mostly the opposite and the thing you got suggested adds nicely to the theme, then you should consider ways to enhance the playing experience with some additions. However, you know the best the audience you're developing the game for and therefore the complexity level they like to have.

Additionally, if it adds to the theme but doesn't make the game at least as much more intresting and enjoyable as the complexity level increase is, it most probably isn't a good addition.

questccg
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Writing rules is difficult

You can have a SUPER easy game - that can be taught in UNDER 5 minutes... And yet it takes a 20 page rulebook to "explain" HOW to play... The game can be so simple that a nine (9) year old understands the basics (or "core") of how to play the game...

Which is cool - because most kids want to PLAY "Games suited for an OLDER audience"... Kids like to play on the their bicycles - but secretly they all would love to ride on a dirt bike (that sort of mindset)...

So if your game is a bit more mature - but allows kids to get in on the action ... Great! But if the game rules can be read by a Parent and then explained to their children... If the game can be TAUGHT in that manner, I'd say you've got a pretty good game to share with kids, Parents and Gamers alike.

You mentioned about the possibility of "Expansion" and not "overly complicating" your "core" game. My advice - simplify the "core" and add "Expansions" to add more complexity to the game... Or perhaps more variety and maybe cards that go hand-in-hand.

Personally I think designing FOR "Expansion" is a smart way to go. It's why I am the creator and pilot for the XTG3 initiative: http://www.xtg3.org

I think games designed for "Expansion" should stand out from their game peers because the designer had the Vision to decide he wanted to have his game grow. Not an after effect of great sales - the idea that a "core" can be FUN and still allow for the possibility of new additions to "raise the bar" on the strategy, challenges and obstacles that must be overcome!

Cheers!

krone9
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Thats an interesting comment.

Thats an interesting comment. I think I both agree and disagree with you :D and its made me think quite a bit. I've moved onto a simpler game to help refine my ability to build complete games, and will come back to the more complex game shortly.

When I started designing games (not very long ago at all) I did a lot of reading around first, and one of the earliest things I saw was the idea of not designing expansions but to make the core game as good as possible. Reason being - there might never be an expansion so make the version 1 as good as possible!

In my current game (Knossus : http://www.bgdf.com/node/19259) I had what I thought was pretty solid mechanics that played well and had ideas for expansions but wanted to keep things simple. So I had them as optional potential add-ons but not included in the core game.

I just did a playtest with 4 real players (as opposed to a lot of real 2 player testing, and self testing with 2-4 players) and that opened my eyes to a lot of new aspects.

Some holes, and some "just not that great" bits - fortunately my fixes were easily to hand because I had thought about the expansions. Coupled with some great feedback and suggestions from my playtesters, I built them in to plug the holes, and I had the game tweaked ready to play again within 48 hours. Now I'm of a mind that depth and interest to a game are great things to have in your backpocket and you should add as much as possible, until people tell you its too complex, providing its not at the expense of the core game.

What I am finding however is that I'm not great at remembering all the tweaks I make along the way so I need the rulebook to help me teach.

I started writing my rulebooks by stealing the format from other games to use as a model structure but actually I've changed my mind on that. So I've just recut my rulebook with a view on how I teach it - it reads much better to me now but will see what feedback I get. (its here: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1jmPE6AFS_D1Lc8m9cJRmGH0gBXQqIj5luze_... if anyone fancies commenting - comments are enabled)

Willem Verheij
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It might also help to have

It might also help to have the game playtested without these additional rules, and then ask your testers if they feel something might be missing from the experience and what that might be.

Maybe some are disappointed about some parts of the game not having more to it, or feeling it does not make sense that they can't do this or that.

Through that it might help you find what may be missing.

questccg
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I agree with Willem

Have your game playtested and ask testers if they feel like the game MIGHT be "missing" something. Or rules not been as clear ... or even exceptions to the rules too.

And see if you can get it played by different levels of gamers.

You'd be surprised at what newbies (or inexperienced gamers) have as comments. I have found newbies to be the "harshest" of testers. They'll tell you "The Game is too complicated" or "I think people with experience have more of an advantage playing" and even "Even if I was experienced playing, this would not be a game I would play more often"...

These were all REAL comments from various "new" players to Tabletop Gaming.

Like I said, you'd be surprised at what newbies come up with in terms of critiquing your game. And those comments are not "Bad" - just a wake up call to say the game needs refining (for example)!

Cheers.

kilmor81
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Joined: 04/20/2017
Time as a measurement

Measure the time you need to explain the rules to beginners.

That should tell you how complex your game is.

If it takes more than 30minutes to teach the rules.. its complex... if it takes 45 minutes to teach the rules... its too complex.

Also measure the time you need for each player to take a turn.

if a turn takes 3-5 minutes, its complex... if it takes more than 5 minutes.. its too complex..

You get what I mean? the numbers are just from games that I have played. You might feel different

Saving Atlas
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Joined: 05/20/2017
Layers

Hi Krone9,

My design partner and I are experiencing something similar at the moment.

As such, we have begun experimenting with different game 'layers'.

for example: for their first play through, players will only be exposed to about half of the available player powers and not all of the objectives. In a sense it's like a training round, or 'base game'.

In the next play through, more options will be introduced to players and complexity added.

We are hoping that this will keep the game play engaging right from the beginning and increase re-playability as more options become 'unlocked' as players get into the swing of things.

I suppose the trick here is to keep the first play through simple and engaging to bring players back, and then introduce complexity smoothly.

This might be an avenue worth exploring for your game.

krone9
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Joined: 01/28/2017
good advice, thanks I

good advice, thanks

I actually took a break from this game and came back to it after a couple of months. Needed to get some perspective and space to think about some of the clunkier elements.

That space also made me think about the most important aspect : play length.

Whilst its never going to be a 30 minute game I did want to get it down to 90mins and I was struggling to see the wood for the trees. Now feeling pretty confident!

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