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new/ hero/villain dice card game

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questccg
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jedite1000 wrote:unless

jedite1000 wrote:
unless SINGLE ATTACK the opposing player cant use reaction dice to defend...

Sounds good, no reaction - brilliant.

jedite1000 wrote:
MUTUAL ATTACK is the opposing player would also use red dice on your turn. However there is only 1 set of blue and red dice as both players share the dice

Hmm. How about just one extra RED dice is rolled along side the BLUE dice. It would be a weak attack if you roll a Punch/Kick??? Or add a special BLACK counter dice?!

Those are my ideas. Weak counter or a special dice: there could be 3 blank spaces and 2 punch/kick and a super punch (for example) which counters with your ultimate move... 16% chance.

questccg
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No changes required

jedite1000 wrote:
unless SINGLE ATTACK the opposing player cant use reaction dice to defend...

Sounds good, no reaction - brilliant.

jedite1000 wrote:
MUTUAL ATTACK is the opposing player would also use red dice on your turn. However there is only 1 set of blue and red dice as both players share the dice

How about NORMAL ATTACK which allows you to USE the reaction dice. DEFAULT option... And no need for counter dice or any modifications.

Man sometimes the easiest solution is hard to find. Duh! Instead of mutual attack it's NORMAL ATTACK with REACTION (Defense - roll BLUE dice).

That works, eh???

jedite1000
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Just throwing it out there

Just throwing it out there but I've been thinking of an alternative mechanic if the game starts to get too complicated

So instead of 6 attacks and 6 defence dice, I'll scrap that idea in favour of just 1 die each. all the faces have atk and def and all the same

I might scrap the elemental weakness/strength, ill see how it goes

and having 3 separate stats atk, def, hp, haven't quite worked out how it will work, all i know is when attacking you have to deal more dmg than the characters health to kill it or else next turn the hp goes back to normal, kind of like magic. they won't have crazy hp maybe 11 on average

Thinking maybe both players roll a die if both roll atk then they both attack if one rolls a defence then that player uses their def stat to mitigate dmg.

This is just thinking stage at, and keeping my options open incase the current mechanic doesn't sit well

Posted an image on the first page just for an example

jedite1000
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Double Post - Oops!

*** See Above comment ***

FrankM
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I'd stick with multiple dice

I would stick with multiple dice that give players at least the illusion that they chose their action, even if the odds are that only one or two options will present themselves in a given round.

Though the RPS-9 adds some depth to the game, it's probably not worth the cost of adding a whole new counter-attack mechanic. You also don't want to mess with the number of dice in an attack because there could be more than one revealed opponent, and you don't know at roll-time which one will be targeted.

So all of the effects will actually impact the target:

Attacker "dominates" target: Double damage, and roll one fewer reaction dice.
Attacker "weakly dominates" target: Double damage.
Target "weakly dominates" attacker: Half damage.
Target "dominates" attacker: Half damage, and roll one extra reaction die.

It might make sense to consider an attacker and target of the same element to be in the "target weakly dominates attacker" category, so that fire dudes take half damage from fire and so on.

jedite1000
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Yeah, for me anyway, soon as

Yeah, for me anyway, soon as i added the element system and the suggestions it is just getting too confusing for me to continue

FrankM
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RPS-9 simplified

jedite1000 wrote:
Yeah, for me anyway, soon as i added the element system and the suggestions it is just getting too confusing for me to continue

It's valid to just have a one-way ring of element dominance like you originally planned. You don't even need to tell the players its RPS-9, just note on the card that Sample Guy takes half damage from Fluff (own element) and Sprinkles (dominated element) and takes double damage from Rainbows (dominating element).

jedite1000
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Ok what if i change it a bit

Ok what if i change it a bit and make it less complicated such as only have 2 abilities 1 normal 1 special on each champion and change the hp to double digits on average, 3 (100+ hp) for stronger champions and make the power digit on average 1 and 2 digits for powerful attacks

so you can probably keep track on the dmg more, maybe having 3000+ hp and 100-2000 dmg is what making it complicated

I added an image fire man 4 on the first page as an example on what the new template could be

A new card design, what do you think and what do you prefer and why?

http://i.imgur.com/a7ZAhrB.jpg

questccg
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Hmm...

Personally I don't like the direction you are taking with the Health. It reminds me too much of Magic. The 2000+ HP values really made the game seem more like "Yu-Gi-Oh!" but I thought THEMATICALLY they were "bang on". It's not exciting to see a Superhero with 20 health... Know what I mean?!

2,000 now that's more "Superhero-ish"... So what if it's all multiples of 100... It still looked much cooler. So now 100 = 1. Again boring.

But that's just me... 20 doesn't feel like 2,000 even if it's only a multiple of 100.

The other aspect that bothers me is "not taking damage". Again it seems too close to Magic where you need to do all your damage on the same turn to defeat opposing creatures... or Superheroes/villains/etc.

My only advice is NOT to copy Magic. Otherwise you'll end up with something that is unplayable...

Best of luck?! with your design...!

questccg
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Oh yeah... I almost forgot!

Tracking damage doesn't need a track, you can use Damage Tokens with values of 100, 200, 500 and 1,000. These are just multiples of 100 (so 1, 2, 5 and 10).

If you've cause 1,200 damage, that means 1,000 + 200 (2 tokens).

It's a simple as that. If you keep your stats to < 3,000 HP ... you should be able to track health with 3 to 4 tokens.

Just giving you some OTHER ideas... Because I feel that your game had potential and everything that was *unique* is going by the wayside in favor of Magic mechanics...

Anyways I hope your design works out well ... either way.

FrankM
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Rewind

I think having 2 abilities plus a special on each card is perfectly fine, and I agree with questccg that thousands of Power/Health/etc. is thematic. The problem is tracking the health. A little table near the bottom of the card like the following could track health in 100-point increments:

Level Effect Health
Healthy [] [] [] [] []
Hurt -1 action die [] [] [] [] [] []
Wounded -1 reaction die [] [] [] [] [] [] []
Knocked Out No actions []

and just move some chit as appropriate across until you need to go down to the next row, etc. Straddling the right edge of a spot indicates "+50". If the health effects are the same for everyone, then there's no need to print the effects on the cards. On the other hand, health levels are an opportunity for a little flavor text (Healthy/Hurt/Wounded/Knocked Out feels different than Functional/Damaged/Impaired/Inoperable and Manifest/Disturbed/Unstable/Disrupted).

questccg
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Track or no track

FrankM wrote:
...A little table near the bottom of the card like the following could track health in 100-point increments...

I think for sure, you need to track health in some way. @FrankM says use a track at the bottom of your cards using 100 point increments. That's fine but as I mentioned above, you can also use Damage Tokens. And you could easily track maybe even up to 50,000 Health for some Super-Villain bad-ass bad-boy! LOL

50,000 Health requires 5 to 6 Damage Tokens. So say the Damage Total is 45,000 HP, that means 4x 10,000 Damage + 1x 5,000 Damage.

It's not "unmanageable". In my mind 5 to 6 Tokens is enough to track one character's stats.

The Track is simpler but offers LESS "flexibility". It would be HARD to track 50,000 HP... That would require 500 Track units of 100 each. Which is IMPOSSIBLE. With Damage Tokens you could go up to 50,000 Damage... And keeping with the BIG NUMBERS (very thematic), you could deal damage per turn and track damage until a character is eliminated.

Just showing you that it's not impossible to use BIG NUMBERS. It's still a rather simple solution...

Update: If Damage is 48,000 Points (and your character has 50,000 HP), you need 4x 10,000 + 1x 5,000 + 1x 2,000 + 1x 1000. This means SEVEN (7) tokens... It's a little HIGH... But still you can have at least a VARIETY of characters. Not everyone with 20 HP because you're can't track anything above 20... This avoids all characters having about the same HPs...

jedite1000
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Ok, though ill probably

Ok, just thought it would be too much for players to keep track of hp though ill probably reduce the abilties, ill only give each champion 2 abilities with 1 special ability, basic ability be 2 dice and special be 3 dice, i think it will give more variety and easier to get the result you want

questccg
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Funny...

It's your game... We're just trying to offer you "options". I'm not telling you to use 1,000 HP points -- I'm just explaining to you what I thought was "original" about the high points and how I thought it meshes super-well with the Heroes/Villains theme.

Same thing like the Damage Tokens or Track. Ultimately you'll choose what you prefer best. I think we're just trying to share "options" you can have and decide what works best for you.

Personally I originally thought a Track was the simplest idea. But then I got the impression that the cards are getting crowded enough with information that I "proposed" how you could use Damage Tokens.

As far as your game is concerned ... It's 100% your choice what you would prefer. But for me personally, I would have some kind of Damage Tracking system and go for BIG values (since it really goes well with the THEME). And I've worked on duel game too -- I've shelved maybe 6 designs already that were "duels". Each of those designs, I felt were "boring".

I know what it's like having characters where you must do ALL the damage in ONE turn in order to win. And from my experience it's hard to do. WHY? Because you see Magic does it so EASY. But YOUR game doesn't have a TON of CARDS! That's Magic's SECRET: they have so many artifacts, instants, enchantments, etc. that you can literally double your damage and cause a ton of damage (in smaller units)...

But YOUR game doesn't have all those "instant" cards. You'll see when you playtest a game without Damage Tracking will be "boring". Again this is in MY experience -- because "Rain of Fire" was supposed to be a DUEL game between Heaven and Hell (and Earth is in the middle of the Epic Battle between the Forces of Good and Bad)... I was also using content from The Bible (not literally) -- but things like "Burnt Offerings" and God-Like thematic cards. Anyways none of that worked -- because I didn't have all the "matching" cards (instants, sorcery, enchantments, artifacts, etc.)

That's why I suggest to AVOID making your game like Magic. It won't work and this I know from experience. Magic is a WHOLE. Every piece works together in Magic... And we all know that 80% of Magic cards are UNUSABLE in "competitive" play. So that means most of Magic is just filler. But with all that "filler" comes a cohesive WHOLE.

I've played Yu-Gi-Oh! ONCE. And I think what Yu-Gi-Oh! does with it's HIGHER numbers is cool. And I personally think your original 1,000+ abilities were much "connected" with the Superhero/Villain theme.

Again it's ultimately YOUR game. I've been through the process many times, learning new things, gaining "nuggets" worthwhile of keeping for some "future" game (like the RPS-9) and I understand how just using the 2x and 1/2 modifiers may SEEM to make sense. But where the RPS-9 SHINES is that it can express relationships with ALL NINE (9) elements. So even if Fire beats Earth, Water beats Fire ... What does "Death" do to Fire??? See you don't know. That's where the RPS-9 gives you the INSIGHT into what THAT relationship Fire and Death intertwine.

And I'm not telling you to use the RPS-9. I'm just explaining to you what that nugget ADDS to the element relationships. I promised you the simplified diagram -- and I will work on it TOMORROW. You should get it sometime then.

To be real honest -- out of MOST designs that I have seen, yours seems like the most likely to be commercially viable (Aside from Chris' Scrambo -- which will no doubt sell like "hot cakes"). I know DC I believe had the "VS System" in the 90s and the theme isn't overly done. I guess I was attracted by the Abilities, Dice and Characters. Seemed pretty cool.

Plus I love Superheroes/Villains too. Oddly I'm not a collector of Comic Books -- but I used to have a TON of them. Have no clue where they disappeared to?! And it really p!sses me off.

In any event, please continue to refine your design and see what WORKS and what doesn't. Only by testing your design will you be aware of what may be broken and not work. The only reason why I try to tell designers to stay away from Magic... is because it's a BEAST of it's own (Unique). You just can't take Artifacts or Enchantments out of the game -- because those cards are all intricate parts of a greater whole.

Keep working on your design. I'd love to hear playtesting news... And feedback what you and your testers think of the game.

Cheers!

jedite1000
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http://i.imgur.com/YIGFfO0.jp

http://i.imgur.com/YIGFfO0.jpg

What do you think, does it look better?

Then again, i could have some champions with 2 basics and 1 special, because i have some good champions that have a good attack combos

Im thinking if my game even needs a reaction dice mechanic?, (defence dice)

I feel it wont defend much damage if the enemy rolls a combo on the card. like it can defend a simple 100 melee and range attack but other than that i feel it is useless

questccg
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Sample Icon diagram

So without any further delay, here is the Sample Icon diagram for a "Fire" character (based on my RPS-9):

Let's take a closer look:

  • The Icon in the middle is "Frost" and it means "Fire" does Double Damage to "Frost".
  • The two (2) icons on the top are "Order" and "Earth". Both of these are Single Attack where the opponent may NOT retaliate.
  • The two (2) icons on the bottom are "Tech" and "Death". Both of these are sparring and Mutual Attacks where the opponents may counter.

So that's 5 relationships -- I said there were NINE (9) to describe. You are correct:

  • One relationship is "Fire" versus "Fire" (Same element). In this case I would select Mutual Attack.
  • "Chaos" does Double Damage to "Fire". So "Fire" is weak against "Chaos". Although not on the diagram - it's not really important to know when you are "weak"... The opponent's character will reveal when he will do Double Damage.
  • And the last two (2) are Single Attacks AGAINST "Fire". So "Storm" and "Life" do single attacks. Again your opponent's card will reveal these...

And that's it. Five (5) element relationships in one (1) diagram.

FrankM
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Nice and concise

Though I'm not a fan of the single-attack/mutual-attack mechanics, that is a nice and concise way of showing a lot of relationships.

I can see the kind of double-damage and half-damage effects already discussed, or alternatively +1 [shield] when defending against an element you dominate and -1 [shield] when defending against an element that dominates you. In the latter case, rolling 0 or 1 [shield]s has no effect, 2 [shield]s only blocks 100 damage (or works as a single [shield] for an ability combo), etc.

A similar mechanic could be used for the health levels (whether recorded on a track or with tokens). -1 [fist] / -1 [crosshairs] at "Hurt" and -1 [shield] at "Wounded". This allows the player to roll all of the dice in case he/she is trying to get a bench ability working. Hell, "Knocked Out" might even come with -1 [heart] so that incapacitated characters can return to the fight on their own if the player rolls at least 2 [heart] dice. If that is allowed, I'd allow a character to accumulate more than his/her total hitpoints in damage to make recovery from serious overkill take longer.

questccg
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Interesting ideas...

FrankM wrote:
Though I'm not a fan of the single-attack/mutual-attack mechanics, that is a nice and concise way of showing a lot of relationships.

Thank you. I've kept the RPS-9, the table and diagram from one of my duel ventures which never got any traction. Designing duels is rather difficult. It's got to be ENGAGING... And attract players to actually sit down and play the game. Alternatively if you have a *nice* board (because you are designing something OTHER than a duel game), usually you can convince people to sit down and play -- one way.

FrankM wrote:
I can see the kind of double-damage and half-damage effects already discussed, or alternatively +1 [shield] when defending against an element you dominate and -1 [shield] when defending against an element that dominates you. In the latter case, rolling 0 or 1 [shield]s has no effect, 2 [shield]s only blocks 100 damage (or works as a single [shield] for an ability combo), etc.

Ya I agree that sounds cool too. Makes a lot of sense too.

FrankM wrote:
A similar mechanic could be used for the health levels (whether recorded on a track or with tokens). -1 [fist] / -1 [crosshairs] at "Hurt" and -1 [shield] at "Wounded". This allows the player to roll all of the dice in case he/she is trying to get a bench ability working. Hell, "Knocked Out" might even come with -1 [heart] so that incapacitated characters can return to the fight on their own if the player rolls at least 2 [heart] dice. If that is allowed, I'd allow a character to accumulate more than his/her total hitpoints in damage to make recovery from serious overkill take longer.

You lost me! :( I got the last part about "recovering from a substantial amount of damage (more than your health)" ...

But the -1 [Fist] / -1 [Crosshairs] at "Hurt", etc... Not too certain I understand. Is this an "extra" dice you would like to add to the mix??? Like a -1 [Fist], -1 [Crosshairs], -1 [Shield], -1 [Heart] ... and then what? I'm not comprehending this aspect (with the -1s). Can you explain further??

FrankM
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questccg wrote: You lost me!

questccg wrote:
You lost me! :( I got the last part about "recovering from a substantial amount of damage (more than your health)" ...

But the -1 [Fist] / -1 [Crosshairs] at "Hurt", etc... Not too certain I understand. Is this an "extra" dice you would like to add to the mix??? Like a -1 [Fist], -1 [Crosshairs], -1 [Shield], -1 [Heart] ... and then what? I'm not comprehending this aspect (with the -1s). Can you explain further??

That would be me skipping some steps in the description. Let me try to be clearer.

A few posts ago I suggested health levels, but changed my mind about the effects:

Level Effect Health
Healthy [] [] [] [] []
Hurt -1 [fist] / -1 [crosshairs] [] [] [] [] [] []
Wounded -1 [shield] [] [] [] [] [] [] []
Knocked Out -1 [heart] / [heart] actions only [] [] [] [] [] [] [] [] [] []

For a "hurt" character, the player rolls action dice. If trying to assign any of them to the "hurt" character for a melee attack or a combo involving [fist]s, then 0 or 1 has no effect, 2 [fist]s work like 1, etc. Same for using [crosshair]s. If the character has some odd combo involving both, then only one die is thrown out.

For a "wounded" character, it's basically the same as being attacked by an element that dominates you... though the two effects are cumulative. A "wounded" fire dude attacked with cold would need to get 3 [shield]s to avoid any damage.

questccg
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Still not getting the "Health" portion of your explanation

Why is "Healthy" 5 units and "Hurt" 6 units? And then "Knocked Out" 10 units?? What is 4 or 3 units???

Are you trying to say that your "Health" can be GREATER than your MAXIMUM?

Is that why there are Health indicators to the LEFT of the center point...?

I get the EFFECTs and in understand the levels... But the Health indicator as it is - has me wondering?! Still not 100% clear about how that Health indicator is supposed to be used.

I know you at one point said the indicator could "track" 100 points... But this isn't that indicator or is it??? I'm thinking this is something different -- for tracking Health STATUS (not actual HP). Am I close?!

jedite1000
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I could just have 1 defence

I could just have 1 defence die with faces such as

Block 1/2 dmg / Block Full Dmg / Block 1/2 dmg / miss / Block quarter dmg / Block quarter dmg

And with the melee and range die that does 100 dmg on its own, just let those through so the little dmg on its own cant be blocked but the abilities on the cards can be. If that makes sense.

So example if you roll the attack dice and you dont get a combo that is on the card but you still rolled a melee fist. that will do 100 dmg and the opponent cant block that

Also do you prefer speech bubble next to the character with their flavour text quote http://i.imgur.com/mjNJ5Cg.jpg
Or prefer at the bottom like before

Or do you think i need a flavour text at all?, do the characters have enough personality without it

And also the hero hp bar at the bottom replacing the quote box http://i.imgur.com/wt2kroB.jpg

So for the defence dice i was thinking

1 50% (the opponent champion only does 50% of the dmg)
2 100% (the opponent champion does 0% of the dmg)
3 50%
4 Miss
5 Miss
6 Clash (When you get this result you are able to then roll the attack dice so both players will take dmg depending on their own results)

So example It is my turn to attack, i roll the dice and i get melee/fire which does 500 dmg, so now you have to roll the defence die, the result is a clash, my attack is on hold for now, so you pick up the attack dice and roll and you also get melee/fire so your attack goes through first then my attack continues and so we both get hit. Next turn it is your shot to roll the attack dice

I reckon it is better having only 1 reaction (defend) die and 6 attack (action) dice.

FrankM
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Hopefully clearer

questccg wrote:
Why is "Healthy" 5 units and "Hurt" 6 units? And then "Knocked Out" 10 units?? What is 4 or 3 units???

Are you trying to say that your "Health" can be GREATER than your MAXIMUM?

Is that why there are Health indicators to the LEFT of the center point...?

I get the EFFECTs and in understand the levels... But the Health indicator as it is - has me wondering?! Still not 100% clear about how that Health indicator is supposed to be used.

I know you at one point said the indicator could "track" 100 points... But this isn't that indicator or is it??? I'm thinking this is something different -- for tracking Health STATUS (not actual HP). Am I close?!

So this was an example and I didn't want to get too carried away on details while introducing it. Each space along the track was intended as 100 points of health, and different characters would have different numbers based on how tough they are.

So the token starts on the leftmost spot on the Healthy line, and as drawn he can take up to 400 (actually 450 I suppose) points of damage and still be Healthy. Then comes 600 points worth of Hurt, and so on.

In that entire last row the character is Knocked Out and the only dice that can be assigned to him are [heart]s for recovery. Furthermore from the effect on that row, it takes 2 [heart]s to recover one 100-point space or 3 [heart]s to recover two spaces and so on. Since the game ends if all of your characters are Knocked Out, it may helpful to bring a healer.

FrankM
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Symmetry

jedite1000 wrote:
I could just have 1 defence die with faces such as

Block 1/2 dmg / Block Full Dmg / Block 1/2 dmg / miss / Block quarter dmg / Block quarter dmg,

jedite1000 wrote:
I reckon it is better having only 1 reaction (defend) die and 6 attack (action) dice.

Having multiple reaction dice makes this seem more symmetric, so amazing attacks require combos and so do amazing defenses. This should avoid the offensive player making some incredibly lucky roll, then having it undone by a single die. It also allows for some characters to have reaction-based powers. This is why I suggested at least two abilities per character not including their special.

Drill Sergeant's Yell: [speech] [speech] [heart] Heal an ally of 1000 points damage
"Get back in the fight, soldier!"

jedite1000
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Though the problem is that if

Though the problem is that if the defending hero does not have a defensive power then there is no way to block all that dmg. Not all heroes will have a defensive power. Basically the defensive dice will be useless to some heroes

questccg
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How about this idea?!

jedite1000 wrote:
Though the problem is that if the defending hero does not have a defensive power then there is no way to block all that dmg. Not all heroes will have a defensive power. Basically the defensive dice will be useless to some heroes

Instead of having a "defensive" power, "Offensive" Characters have exceptionally POWERFUL "attack" abilities to offset this lack of "defensive" capabilities.

Let's say your Fire-dude has ONLY offensive skills. And he could do like 2,000 Fireball damage. Your Shower-dude has both an offensive and defensive skill. His offensive skill is only 1,000 damage -- but he has a 1,000 defensive resistances. So effectively his skills are "equal" to the Fire-dude in the best of circumstances.

Obviously you don't always want the numbers to "match"... But this is a basic example to show how you can BALANCE in other ways (between offensive-only and offensive-defensive characters).

Cheers!

FrankM
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Defense Dice

I thought the original idea was that [shield]s could block 100 points of damage each and [heart]s heal 100 points each as a basic thing.

It would take phenomenal luck to block 500 incoming points of damage, but it will probably take off a little.

And there can still be that 3 [speech] effect to give players a chance to role play.

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questccg
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Defensive Abilities too!

FrankM wrote:
...It would take phenomenal luck to block 500 incoming points of damage, but it will probably take off a little...

Unless you have a Blocking Ability that can "block" 1,000 points (for example). And on your defensive roll, you get that Ability and can use it...

I would be fairly confident that "Offensive" Abilities will get used often, so when you do on certain occasions roll the "Defensive" Ability, it's REWARDING and "memorable"... Could insight some stories about the game...

Note: I would suggest offering some kind of trade-off between having "High" HP (like 25,000+ HP) versus having "lower" HP (like 10,000 - 15,000 HP) with some kind of "powerful" OFFENSIVE Ability. So weak but having powerful attack or strong with defensive capabilities... Something to that effect.

In your LINGO: [speech] [Shield] [Shield] = Defense Matrix : Blocks up to 1,500 Damage points. Lasts three (3) turns. Or something to that effect...

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questccg
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New characters look pretty kewl!

Yeah all those BIG numbers definitely look very thematic. Much better to see 5,000 instead of just 5!!! It really makes a big difference too.

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